Richard III discussion

Book Discussions > Under the Hog by Patrick Carleton

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message 1: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Just curious if anyone's heard of this one. I saw it mentioned in a review of a different book on Richard on Amazon UK.

message 2: by Susan (new)

Susan (boswellbaxter) | 418 comments I used to have a copy that was reprinted by the Richard III Society. I never read it, though--it looked pretty dry and dusty, so I gave it away.

message 3: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Dry and dusty is not the best recommendation, especially since he/she was recommending that instead of the book I'm actually enjoying :)

message 4: by Barb (new)

Barb | 145 comments Are you enjoying something musty?

message 5: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
I am very much enjoying my musty book, although I'm glad to say that the musty smell has not bothered me once I got it out of the package and started reading it. It's not Penman, but I anticipate some lively discussions once we're all finished.

Ikon must be sitting on her hands to keep them from the keyboard until we're all ready :)

message 6: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments I would have you know that I am writing a review of uncommon length which I shall post once we have all read and got deeply into our discussion. I shall have the time to add and add to it until it approaches the length of the book itself.

I am also writing sestinas to occupy my hands to keep them from mischief. Heh!

message 7: by MAP (new)

MAP | 181 comments review of what? Under the Hog or Seventh Son? Have you ALREADY read the whole book? Eep!

message 8: by Darkpool (new)

Darkpool | 91 comments I've never managed to get my hands on a copy of "Under the Hog", but I have heard it described (by a member of the society) as the best Richard novel written.

message 9: by Jenn (new)

Jenn (jenn_reed) | 42 comments If you don't have a copy, check with the American Branch Sales office. They used to have a ton of them.

message 10: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments MAP - "The Seventh Son". In spire of my best efforts to slow down, I raced through it in two days. I took about two days off toward the end because I always have to brace myself to read about Bosworth. When I was reading "Sunne in Splendour", I took more than a week off because SKP's writing was so intense I just did not want to read that part. :(

message 11: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments The sales office of the American branch of the R3 Society still lists "Under the Hog" as available in its catalogue as of last summer. The price is $10.

message 12: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Amazon's listings are higher - any of you in to Ebay it looks like it's being listed. There's one listed on Abe for $6 + shipping but it comes from the UK. I might have to try for an interlibrary and see how lucky I get.

MAP, Seventh Son goes very quickly. It's only a bit over 300 pages.

message 13: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments Watch out for some of those vendor offerings. They are sometimes the paper back version at ruinous prices. The e-mail sales link at the R3 Society is not working so I wrote them and asked for instructions.

message 14: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
I do not do ebay and not interested in starting. Too many shams out there. Inter library loans are more fun anyway - half the fun is seeing where in the country it came from.

message 15: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Very cool, I just check my hold list at the library and they've found a copy for me through ILL.

message 16: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments I am still waiting for the R3 Society to get back to me. Here I sit eager to pay them for a book they say they have for sale and we cannot seem to reach one another. Alas.

message 17: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
I'll let you know how it is. Since it's an ILL it will get fast tracked. Only three weeks borrowing time and no renewing it either.

It's pretty sad when you're waiting to throw money at someone and no one cares.

It's almost 3/5 we can start talking The Seventh Son. Hope Barb and MAP have finished.

message 18: by Barb (new)

Barb | 145 comments I'm done and can't wait to see what you smarty-pants thought of 'The Seventh Son'!
Shall we meet at the stroke of midnight and commence our chat? Just kidding...I'll be unconscious, I hope.

message 19: by Susan (new)

Susan (boswellbaxter) | 418 comments Ikonopeiston wrote: "I am still waiting for the R3 Society to get back to me. Here I sit eager to pay them for a book they say they have for sale and we cannot seem to reach one another. Alas."

I never did get hold of the sales officer, but someone did mention that they have copies on eBay for sale.

message 20: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Barb, if you're ready to talk at midnight I suspect you'll be all alone. Although, maybe Ikon will be ready and waiting :o

message 21: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments Susan wrote: "Ikonopeiston wrote: "I am still waiting for the R3 Society to get back to me. Here I sit eager to pay them for a book they say they have for sale and we cannot seem to reach one another. Alas."

I have checked e-Bay and they have one copy - a collectible which is too dear for my budget. It appears I am not fated to read this book. Oh well, maybe it is not very good.

message 22: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Ikon, do you use your local library? If so, there is every chance they participate in the Interlibrary Loan Program. Don't be afraid to try it, and the request form should be online. Barb and I both swear by it. Big big money saver. Huge.

message 23: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments Unfortunately, it is very difficult for me to get to any of the branches of my library. I have used ILL in the past when things were different. In fact, I once had an entire (short) book sent me through ILL and then photo-copied when it got here. Heh! These days, I hunt the books I want through the wilds and thickets of the Internet.

message 24: by Jenn (new)

Jenn (jenn_reed) | 42 comments Ikon, go to
seach: Under the Hog
Author: Carlton

I've found a few that are in the $3 and up category.

message 25: by Ikonopeiston (last edited Mar 04, 2009 06:09AM) (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments Jenn, thank you for your suggestion. i tried Addall and they report no success. However, you have given me another valuable tool which I have added to my armory of search engines. You people here are the most helpful and supportive group I have ever encountered. I am eternally grateful for being steered to the Book Depository. It has become one of my great delights to buy from them and get a package with 'Royal Mail' stamped on the front. ;)

Oops! misspelled Carleton's name. Now I have nineteen offerings to sort amongst. What fun! Blessings on your head, Jenn.

message 26: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments To all who were so kindly concerned. I have just ordered a hard back 4th edition printing of "Under the Hog" for about the same price as I would have paid to the R3 Society. I am delighted since I feel this book as one of the first novels to espouse the Ricardian point of view belongs on my book shelf. Thanks go out to all of you who have offered suggestions and especially to Jenn who came up with the solution. I am now a devotee of Addall as well as Book Depository. *Roman candles* *sparklers* * confetti*

message 27: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Ikon, you are very trusting spending good money on a relatively unknown book. I've only seen one review on it and that's at Amazon UK.

message 28: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments Actually, I want it because of its position as a leader in the Ricardian movement. Also, I enjoy books written in the earlier years of the 20th Century more than more recent ones. They seem to depend less on violence and shock language and more on literary virtues. Heh!

Since my own language is rather antique, I relish that in others. LOL I am a snob!

message 29: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
"Also, I enjoy books written in the earlier years of the 20th Century more than more recent ones"

Oh I agree, I do so much better with stuff that was published years ago instead of these current releases. With a couple of exceptions (Chadwick, Penman, plus our own Susan and Brian) virtually every time I pick up a new release in HF I am left shaking my head wondering what on earth these people are thinking of and why the publishers are letting them get away with it. It's all just so light and fluffy. Maybe its just me....

message 30: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments I honestly do not think it is just us. Publishers have discovered that they make money by showing exactly what happens after the bodice is ripped. I loved Penman for her delicacy in the bedroom and her realistic view of the battlefield. Hers were the first war scenes I enjoyed since 'Gone With the Wind'. I have read none of Susan's work but Brian also can pull off the tightwire walk between prurience and honesty. Those Rose of York books by Worth are simply nauseating in their excessive romanticism. They make me eager to talk about "The Seventh Son".

message 31: by Jenn (last edited Mar 04, 2009 10:45AM) (new)

Jenn (jenn_reed) | 42 comments De rien, Ikon.

If you want Victorian writing, I submit John Foster Kirk's "Charles the Bold"; one run on sentence (or at least that's how it feels), however the footnotes are pure gold.

message 32: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Its amazing what an author like Penman can do with sexual tension between two people without all the bodices ripping, isn't it? I recall Henry and Eleanor just smoking off the pages without a blow by blow detailed account.

Is it the publishers pushing the "sex sells" attitude on writers, or is it the readers as a whole who want it?

As for the Rose of York books I'll not read another one by that author. Beyond that - "sits on hands to keep fingers off the keyboard"

message 33: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments The one thing I enjoyed in "Crown of Roses" was the by-play between Margaret Beaufort and Stanley. Their marriage contract specified that there would be no sexual congress and that suited him fine until she looked at him with her intensely blue eyes. The rest of the time whenever the two are written, he is trying to get her into bed and she prefers plotting to get her rotten-toothed son on the throne and hearing masses (six a day). It is genuinely funny.

Jenn, I truly am grateful for your help. And, thank you, I believe I shall pass on the Kirk book. Charles is not one of my passions. ;) Is it true that he preferred boys?

message 34: by Jenn (new)

Jenn (jenn_reed) | 42 comments Any time. I've been told I have "mad research skills".

Charles the Bold...preferring boys? I've never read that before. However, it seems a favorite ploy of the rumor mongers and detractors of the age to question an individuals preferences when the person was no longer able to defend against their slings and arrows by the misfortune of having come to an untimely death. I would not put such an accusation past the Spider King; Louis was ever the political animal and I wouldn't put character assassination past him.

I think if Charles was guilty of anything it was a sort of benign neglect when it came to Margaret. However, when he was in the field, and word reached him a fire at an estate where Margaret resided, he dropped everything and rushed to be with her. He also left her in charge of Burgundy while he ran the army. Considering how much he was actually involved in his government, that says quite a bit about his faith her abilities. Charles was also exceptionally well read. So, they would have at least a commonality in that. I would have to review the "Itineraries" again to see where they were all together. I know he was none-to-fond of the deal that Edward IV struck with Louis during the campaign of 1475.

Charles had issues with his father's philandering, he has no batards, but I wouldn't call him a "mama's boy" and I never read anything that would make me question his orientation.

I love SKP style of "suggesting" passion without getting pornographic. She's a wonderful writer. "Smoking off the pages" that a very accurate description. My husband just finished reading "The Devil's Brood" and "Cruel as the Grave". Now I have to get the others that preceded Devil's Brood.

She also conveys "threat" very well. I always remember the scene from "Sunne in Splendour" of the encounter between Edouard and Anne when he grasped her necklace and reeled her in...

Richard is my favorite. Charles is just associated by marriage. I just prefer to give him a fairer shake.

message 35: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments I forget where I read the prurient suggestion about Charles. But I have no doubt that Louis was involved somehow, although it could have been reinforced by Edward's army in their disgust about not getting to pick up some loot when Charles did not act as he had promised.

No, Charles was not an enthusiast about the Treaty of Picquigny. From my own perspective over the gulf of more than five hundred years, I am inclined to agree with Richard Gloucester that the deal Edward struck was a sell out and a shameful thing to do. Naturally, I can understand why he did it but still it was not honourable. It is no satisfaction to know that he paid for his short-sightedness in the long run.

I agree with you that Charles and Margaret had a satisfactory, if rather unconventional marriage. Since he had fathered a daughter by his first wife, I must assume that their childlessness was her fault if he performed his marital duties as prescribed.

The times were very interesting in the fifteenth century and Richard is definitely a man of his time.

message 36: by Jenn (new)

Jenn (jenn_reed) | 42 comments Sorry to run so far off topic:
The rumor might have been started by the Croys. They were favored by Philip the Good, which caused serious stress between Philip and Charles, and when he became Duke, they fell out of favor, turned coat and joined up with Louis.

message 37: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments That might be called the Era of the Spinning Coats. The only time I can think of which compares in that characteristic is the unrest which accompanied the ascent of Boris Godunov from Regent to Tsar in 1591. In his case, the boyar Shuisky played the part of Stanley.

Now, who's getting off topic?

message 38: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
It's probably a good thing madam moderator has no clue how to break you two off and start a new thread isn't it? :o

message 39: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments Yessum. I bow to Madam Moderator. We were just nattering. *pulls forelock*

message 40: by Jenn (new)

Jenn (jenn_reed) | 42 comments Ah, you've taken it to the 16th century AND moved it East.

Hmmm...Can you move our Side Bar to it's own thread?

message 41: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Give me a name to call it and I'll give you a thread. Your nattering has lost me a bit....

message 42: by Jenn (last edited Mar 05, 2009 09:39AM) (new)

Jenn (jenn_reed) | 42 comments I guess it started with Ikon's question:

Is it true that he [Charles the Bold:] preferred boys?

Under General Discussions. Some of what we nattered about was related to finding the Book under discussion. (curtsy) ;-)

message 43: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments Hey Jenn, When we get our own thread, I shall post - for your amused delight - my painting of Boris Godunov. Heh!

message 44: by Jenn (new)

Jenn (jenn_reed) | 42 comments LOL...

message 45: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Just picked up my ILL from the library. This copy came from the New Mexico State University Library. Half of the fun of interlibrary loans is seeing how far away they come.

Ikon, there's some stuff on the inside flap of front and back that's covered up with library stuff. Let me know if there's anything I'm missing, please.

message 46: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments If you mean on the DJ, the one I am expecting is missing its dust jacket. Let me know if that's it.

message 47: by Misfit (new)

Misfit | 1139 comments Mod
Sorry, I mispoke. Not the DJ, but on the inside of the book itself. My copy has no DJ either. Not sure if books had those in the thirties...

message 48: by Ikonopeiston (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments Got it! When my copy gets here, we can compare notes. Come to think of it, none of the copies I found had a DJ. Not even the one labeled 'Collectible'.

message 49: by Jenn (new)

Jenn (jenn_reed) | 42 comments I don't think they have dust jackets. I've never seen a copy with one.

message 50: by Ikonopeiston (last edited Mar 08, 2009 07:03AM) (new)

Ikonopeiston (Ikon) | 385 comments Misfit, AbeBooks says my copy should be here by the 24th but since they have already shipped it I expect it before then. Unless it was shipped from Ultima Thule. Have you started yours yet?

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