The Year of Reading Proust discussion
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The Captive / The Fugitive
The Fugitive, vol. 6
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Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Phèdre is ready for anything, in her love for Hippolyte. She is ready to put up with humiliation, to lose political power... She even asks Hippoliye to kill her, and puts the sword..."Yes, that is why Proust writes this:
La preuve que le "soin de la gloire" n'est pas ce à quoi tient le plus Phèdre c'est qu'elle pardonnerait à Hippolyte et s'arracherait aux conseils d'Oenone si elle n'apprenait à ce moment qu'Hippolyte aime Aricie. Tant la jalousie qui en amour équivaut à la perte de tout bonheur est plus sensible que la perte de la réputation.. p. 118.
Phèdre actually finds out about Hippolyte loving Aricie from her own husband, Thésée.
Marcelita wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Re the inspiration for the coded letter written by an American to someone in the Narrator's building, I came across something interesting today, and not online but in my local boo..."Thank you Marcelita and BookPortrait.. The problem I have with some of this podcasts is that they are sometimes daily and it is very hard to find the one that is of interest.... I cannot listen to them all.
A twist to the imagery on birds and captivity... the eagle this time...In relation to Albertine's two rings..
Aterré, les deux bagues à la main, je regardais cet aigle impitoyable dont le bec me tenaillait le coeur, dont les ailes aux plumes en relief avaient emporté la confiance que je gardais dans mon amie et sous les serres duquel mon esprit meurtri ne pouvait pas échapper un instant aux questions posées sans cesse relativement à cet inconnu dont l'aigle symbolisait sans doute le nom... p. 123.
Fionnuala wrote: "Not at all, Kalliope. I was simply commenting on why I had not spotted the Agostinelli letter in Milly's introduction - especially since we are reading the same edition.."There are many more letters quoted that have made their way into the novel... On the buying of the airplane, on the Rolls-Royce, on the money to be given to Agostinelli's family, on how he dealt with the death (mixture between l'oubli and sudden memories), on the Mallarmé verses, on whether A's family were swindling him....
He also charged a friend, Albert Nahmias, to go and spy on Agostinelli when the latter escaped...
Even the strong reaction at hearing the particulars of Mme Bontemps apartment (hangar, couloir, salon)... are seen by Milly as un débordement du biographique sur le fictif, un écho des recherches que Proust dut faire mener sur des terrains d'aviation.....
That is the biographical overflowing over onto the fictional and functioning like an echo of the investigations that Proust had carried out on the airport area....
(I am not good at translating one foreign language into another, but it gives an idea...)
I'm about half-way through this week's section (though I still haven't located the end in my GF paperback) but I'm wondering if we are all going to be reading the same-ish text of Albertine (clearly there's no definitive text of Proust but maybe some general alignement among scholars...). The "notes on the establishment of this text" in my GF edition mention a "dactylographie Mauriac" (Albertine annotated by Proust in Oct-Nov 1922) found in 1987 and immediately published by Grasset which apparently differed significantly from the book published by Gallimard in 1922 (and edited by Robert Proust and Jacques Rivière) and led to all publishers releasing new versions of Albertine in the early 1990s. Did the English versions integrate changes too? I haven't followed the discussions on translations...
I'm trying to avoid spoilers (so not reading the introductions yet) but does someone know the story of this "dactylographie Mauriac" and how/if it impacts the group read?
Kalliope wrote: "Thank you Marcelita and BookPortrait.. The problem I have with some of this podcasts is that they are sometimes daily and it is very hard to find the one that is of interest.... I cannot listen to them all."LOL. Don't feel obligated to listen to them all! :)
I can't follow every link here either. I try to highlight the really interesting ones but it's difficult given that I just hoard the podcasts for when I'm done with La Recherche.
To be honest, I noticed that not many people seem interested in the links I post but I continue to post them for fellow addicts. *waves at Marcelita* And I usually make sure I provide the direct link to the relevant page. Apologies if I wasn't careful with some. Also I tuck them away in the deserted francophone section (since they're in French) so as to not interfere with the general discussion. If you'd rather I did it differently, let me know. :)
Eugene wrote: "We have 2 volumes left to read; this one, a draft and like the one that follows it were published posthumously but they differ in their time of writing; this one, Albertine disparue was written..."As À la recherche du temps perdu appears to be unfinished, or not finished the way Proust had wanted, are there sequels that continue certain parts of the story by different authors or authors who have used his characters to tell their own stories?"
My dear Eugene, this is the only novel that comes to mind:
"Albertine" by Jacqueline Rose
"In this powerfully atmospheric novel, Jacqueline Rose re-tells the story of Albertine from Proust's A la recherche du temps perdu, from her point of view. But this remarkable retelling stands on its own. Cut free from the master's text, the woman's story carries us into a lush, dreamlike inner world, in which a drama of passion is played out on bodies and minds alike - suggestive and sexy, intriguing and provocative."
http://www.amazon.com/Albertine-Jacqu...
The Guardian's Review
(spoilers)
http://www.theguardian.com/books/2001...
PS Bill Carter said he thought Proust had a grand time writing the complex, vulnerable character of the Baron de Charlus. And he put at least one of his own experiences, ripping up a top hat, into a Charlus passage. I will go back and get exact quotes, once the webcam is uploaded.
Kalliope wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Marcus wrote: "The footnotes give letters from which the novel seems almost to be quoting..""It is in the introduction in my edition that Jean Milly includes the last letter that Marcel Proust wrote to Agostinelli..."
I found the letter from "Marcel Proust: Selected Letters in English, 1910-1917, vol. 3." Edited by Philip Kolb.
It's long, but...(I spaced it out.)
To Alfred Agostinelli Saturday, 30 May 1914
My dear Alfred,
Thank you very much for your letter—one sentence was ravishing (crepuscular etc.)--and for your preliminary telegram which was an additional kindness. If I don’t send you one it’s because it’s a bit late, the letter having been taken away while I was asleep etc. Since it (yours) gave me pleasure, mine wasn’t completely useless. But for the rest (you’re going to tell me again that I don’t know what I want) it was. For I felt on reflection that it would be very indelicate on my part to accept a favor of that kind from you, so I want to try to obtain what I ask by myself. I won’t explain why I should find it indelicate; I should probably make you angry again and that it what I most want to avoid. I might have thought of this before but it only occurred to me after having written to you. In any case I think it’s bound to resolve itself in the end.
As regards the aeroplane it’s more complicated for the same reason as with Grasset recently, you remember when he wrote to me: “I release you from all contractual obligations; do whatever you like”; there was only one thing I could do: what he desired. I went back to see M. Collin the day before yesterday, at night, in the rain, before going to the Ballets Russes.
He was extremely nice and as it were gave me my freedom, which I now hardly dare to take advantage of. However I shall see. But don’t imagine that he himself has any interest whatsoever in these sales. He won’t get a single centime of the 27,000 francs the machine will cost. In any case if I keep it (which I rather doubt), since it will probably remain in the stable, I shall have engraved on (I don’t know what the part is called and I don’t want to commit a heresy in front of an airman) those lines of Mallarmé which you know: it’s the poem that you loved even though you found it obscure, which begins:
Le vierge le vivace et le bel Aujourd’hui.
Alas, “today” is neither “virgin” nor “vivacious” nor ‘beautiful.’”
Above all, to finish once and for all with this aeroplane business, I earnestly beg you to believe that my remarks contain not the slightest imputation of reproach, however hidden. That would be idiotic. I have enough justifiable reasons for reproaching you, and you know that I don’t hesitate to do so. But really it would be too absurd to make you responsible (I mean morally) for the futility of a purchase of which you knew nothing.
[Proust inserts some news items here about Paris scandals and a murder trial before resuming remarks directed at Agostinelli.]
Since you are interested in Swann, and in sport, I enclose an article on Swann that appeared in a sporting journal. I’m sorry it isn’t Aero (but perhaps that will come!). What I’d like to be able to send you, but it’s twenty pages long, is the letter from the author of the article apologizing to me for having quoted my book so carelessly.
I asked you to send back my letter to you, you failed to do so. I asked you to put plenty of seals on your envelope; you didn’t do that either . . . not lie around so you might send back this one and the other together, heavily sealed. No need to tire yourself by writing to me since you’re working so hard; just put them in an envelope.
With a friendly handshake,
Marcel Proust
Discovered via Bill Carter, our American Proust guru. ;)
Kalliope wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Re the inspiration for the coded letter written by an American to someone in the Narrator's building, I came across something interesting today, and not online "I cannot listen to them all."
And I will need a translator(!), but if Proustitute keeps this group open/archived, then we will always have the opportunity to "dip" back in and listen.
Collecting as much as possible is wise. Thank you, Book Portrait!
Book Portrait wrote: "I'm about half-way through this week's section (though I still haven't located the end in my GF paperback) but I'm wondering if we are all going to be reading the same-ish text of Albertine (clearl..."BP,
No, we are not all reading the same version.
In French, you, Fionnuala and I are reading the G-F. I think Karen is reading the Gallimard. This week ends (mid paragraph) in page 131 and next week in 185, then 241 (mid paragraph), 299, end in 359.
My audio I believe is based on the Gallimard (Pléiade). I have no idea of the translations.
I know as much as you do on the Mauriac dactylo... I have only flicked through the introduction of the current La recherche volume. I also have the first volume of Proust's Additions: The Making of 'a La Recherche Du Temps Perdu', but I am also leaving it for later on.
Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Marcus wrote: "The footnotes give letters from which the novel seems almost to be quoting..""It is in the introduction in my edition that Jean Milly includes the..."
Thank you Marcelita, for posting the English translation.
Book Portrait wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Thank you Marcelita and BookPortrait.. The problem I have with some of this podcasts is that they are sometimes daily and it is very hard to find the one that is of interest.... I ..."BP, please continue to post whatever you find... It is up to the Members to treat themselves to whatever interests them. In my case I am leaving a great deal of material for later, for when we have finished the novel, and also, for me, for a few days of vacation...
The French podcasts are so numerous that it is not easy to find the precise one... I still have to investigate them more, but please continue posting them. If you listen to any, do give more data (the date on which it was broadcasted and may be the time).
Thank you for your contributions.
Kalliope wrote: "That is the biographical overflowing over onto the fictional and functioning like an echo of the investigations that Proust had carried out on the airport area....Yes, that is more and more apparent in this volume and will make the final volume all the more interesting for us as we will get to read the 'older' Proust (although younger in years) of the first volume again - as I understand it was written right after Du côté de chez Swann. It will really be a case of le temps retrouvé, time regained.
BP, I appreciate all the links to radio, etc in the French page and I have listened to some items straight away and downloaded others for later. Right now though, with time so precious, I give priority to the book - it's so efficient and simple - just open and read!
A bit more on Racine and his plays... for those who may be less familiar with French seventeenth century drama. Due to the implicit rule of "bienséance", almost no action takes place on the stage. Everything that happens outside the theatre area is narrated to the protagonists by someone such as a messenger or an envoy.
The play consists on watching the reactions to these events by the main characters. The play could be then a series of monologues, and as that could be very boring we have the servants or tutors etc... These second figures, the doppelgängers of the main characters, can be considered then as offering an aspect of the personalities of the heroes and heroines.. They act almost as mirrors.
Hence Proust on Oenone, Phèdre's wet nurse and "confidante"..
C'est alors qu'elle (Phèdre) laisse Oenone (qui n'est que le nom de la pire partie d'elle même) calomnier Hippolyte sans se charger "du soin de le défendre" et envoie ainsi celui qui ne veut pas d'elle à un destin dont les calamités ne la consolent d'ailleurs nullement elle-même. p. 118.
Fionnuala wrote: "Re the inspiration for the coded letter written by an American to someone in the Narrator's building, I came across something interesting today, and not online but in my local bookshop! A book call..."Well spotted, Fionnuala. I remember reading about his complaints regarding the noise in the building. Maybe it was in the Carter's bio. It is amazing that we have letters about it.
@Phillida, maybe he was manipulative in the letters too. From what I gathered Proust the author was no stranger to manipulation. He apparently often used his poor health as an excuse not to see anyone. Though, now that I think about it, who hasn't resorted to that trick?
Kalliope wrote: "This week ends (mid paragraph) in page 131 and next week in 185, then 241 (mid paragraph), 299, end in 359."Thank you for the page numbers! It's quite a treasure hunt sometimes. :)
I too am also using the Thélème/Gallimard audiobooks (based on Tadié's revised Pléiade edition) which is fairly similar to Milly's GF edition but for minor changes.
I've found it fascinating to be able to directly compare scholars' decisions on Proust's text and see how they sometimes try to "débrouiller" (untangle!) his sentences. Or how they fail to do so. :)
The markings in the margins which highlight the changes in the GF edition of Albertine are not heavy in this week's section but appear to be more dramatic in later parts.
We'll see if the English versions diverge significantly or not. My guess is that the older translations (Moncrieff) have been "updated" with the changes of the Mauriac dactylography and that, provided we are reading a recent edition (late 1980's/early 1990's) we'll all be reading the same-ish text.
I'd love to learn more about how an unknown (?) annotated text suddenly appeared in the 1980's. But I'll have to be good and wait until I'm done reading La Recherche...
For those with less compunction, two things that look interesting (en français):
* "Faut-il changer la fin du roman de Proust?" ("should the ending of Proust’s novel be changed?") by Jean Milly (in Études françaises, vol. 30, n° 1, 1994, p. 15-40) (with pages of this Mauriac dactylo reproduced a the end):
http://www.erudit.org/revue/etudfr/19...
* an excerpt of Milly’s introduction to the GF edition explaining the new text (post Mauriac dactylography):
http://www.fabula.org/actualites/prou...
Thanks for pointing Alison Winton's book. I'll look into it when we are through reading Proust's text. The story of Proust's text seems as fascinating as Proust's life. No wonder it still keeps scholars so busy! :)
Kalliope wrote: "Book Portrait wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Thank you Marcelita and BookPortrait.. The problem I have with some of this podcasts is that they are sometimes daily and it is very hard to find the one.."The French podcasts are so numerous that it is not easy to find the precise one."
After all the dedicated hours you have devoted to Proustitute's 2013: YORP, the least I can offer is to help you search...when the time comes...for a specific podcast. Not promising I will always be successful, but will comb my "filing cabinets" and see if it was saved.
Marcelita wrote: ...this is the only novel that comes to mind: "Albertine" by Jacqueline Rose. "In this powerfully atmospheric novel, Jacqueline Rose re-tells the story of Albertine from Proust's A la recherche du temps perdu, from her point of view...Bill Carter said he thought Proust had a grand time writing the complex, vulnerable character of the Baron de Charlus...I will go back and get exact quotes, once the webcam is uploaded.
Thank you so much.
Albertine writes in her last letter in this week's reading:"...You may be sure that for my part I shall never forget that drive in a double twilight (since night was falling and we were about to part) and that it will be effaced from my thoughts only when the darkness is complete."
I felt that this last sentence was merely phrase-making
and that Albertine could not possibly retain until death
any such sweet memory of this drive from which she had
certainly derived no pleasure since she had been impatient
to leave me. ML p. 631
Proust has written the letter from Albertine to the Narrator and Proust writes that the Narrator on reading the letter feels "...this last sentence was merely phrase-making..." on the part of Albertine, a creation of Proust.
The fictional literary criticism of the fiction we read. We also see it in the Narrator's consideration of his juvenilia on the three steeples of Martinville: his reaction to writing it at the time then his attempt to get it published in the Figaro if you want to read between Proust's lines. Also more directly on Bergotte...
And as you read on about the Narrator's feelings above you think, as most people do (as does the Narrator here) about their friends and themselves, that they are immortal, or better put, that they choose not to see their impending, sooner or later, mortality as Virginia Woolf writes of, so keenly, in Mrs. Dalloway.
Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Book Portrait wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Thank you Marcelita and BookPortrait.. The problem I have with some of this podcasts is that they are sometimes daily and it is very hard to ..."Thank you Marcelita.. The French podcasts that BP is posting, are a task pending for me but hopefully through Xmas I will sort them out, but any guidance you can offer will be welcomed.
Book Portrait wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "This week ends (mid paragraph) in page 131 and next week in 185, then 241 (mid paragraph), 299, end in 359."Thank you for the page numbers! It's quite a treasure hunt sometimes. ..."
Thank you for these, BP. Will investigate. I have the whole Gallimard set still based on the 1950s edition, but I switched half way to the G-F.
Kalliope wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Book Portrait wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Thank you Marcelita and BookPortrait.. The problem I have "...any guidance you can offer will be welcomed."
If I know what I am searching for...I enter it in the Search box, on my site, and select "Just my pins."
If that doesn't work, I go to "Proust in Multi-Media" and start scrolling.
I try to put anything related to audio/visual here.
The good news...it's in chronological order.
Or, sometimes I will just go to Google and enter:
"pinterest Portrait-Souvenir de Proust avec Céleste Albaret"
With persistence, I eventually find it...and cross my fingers that the links still work.
Sometimes there is a specific date window (BBC) or a re-design issue (the new Proust Ink).
PS I dropped German in high school and spent the rest of the year as a library/research aide.
Big believer that you learn the most...through your failures and taking thoughtful risks.
Kalliope wrote: "This is a harder read, from the point of view of being aware of dealing with a draft, than the previous volume. The G-F edition comes from markings and brackets on the margins. And my audio doe..."
Fionnuala wrote: "In spite of the turmoil of his feelings in the early pages of this week's reading, the Narrator comes up with some very lucid analysis, full of imagery, of how we deal with the new and unexpected, ..."
How come "it is a draft?" Did Proust write it as a draft?
Ce Ce wrote: "Eugene wrote: "My Kindle app says that 7 other people highlighted this same passage and I wondered how many of them thought of social media as I had.The bonds between ourselves and another
person..."
CeCe, don´t leave forever let´s meet in the After Reading ISOLT group.
You are a very interesting, passionate person so you write so well i´d hate to have you disappear into the*cloud*
J Frederick wrote: "What would picking up a "little girl" mean in this situation? ("Outside Albertine's door I found a little poor girl who looked at me wide eyed...") The "I rocked her for a while on my knees" bit is..."I think the narrator is quite a dirty man,if i´ds have found him thus engaged i´d for sure would have given him a good kick on his bottom
Patricia wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "This is a harder read, from the point of view of being aware of dealing with a draft, than the previous volume. ..."
He died before he could produce the final version.
LOL Patricia...I am here. I am always here...just at a perpetually slower pace.So much has already been written about the Narrator exploring and analyzing loss and grief...and the delusions of control that gives us solace as we move through the inevitable slight madness.
I found a few "anchors" or gems of clarity in the swirling undercurrent.
"Just as, throughout the whole course of one's life, one's egoism sees before it all the time the objects that are of concern to the self, but never takes in that "I" itself which directs our actions descends towards them, but does not reach back to itself, whether because, being unduly utilitarian, it plunges into the action and disdains all knowledge of it, or because it looks to the future to compensate for the disappointments of the present, or because the inertia of the mind urges it to slide down the easy slope of imagination, rather than to climb the steep slope of introspection." ML, p 628 (my underline)
AND in a welcome two feet firmly planted on the earth reprieve from the Narrator's far-flung psychological flights, Francoise moves forward from the ghost of servitude. She delivers Albertine's letter announcing her departure. She discovers the rings and recognizes their 'sameness'. She casts meaningful glances. She doesn't believe the lies the Narrator tells himself and her. She trusts her instincts.
Francoise has provided a counterpoint, a balance, solidly woven throughout these volumes. Sometimes fully present...sometimes in the background...but a constant.
At the end of the October 13th thread, and "The Captive" I posted Maya Angelou's "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings"...it came to my mind so strongly. At the end of this section the bird, Albertine, freed from her cage is literally singing.
The caged bird sings
with a fearful trill
of things unknown
but longed for still
and his tune is heard
on the distant hill
for the caged bird
sings of freedom.
Eugene wrote: "Ce Ce you're such a cheerleader."Chuckling, Eugene, in all the many years of my life you are the first who has identified me as a cheerleader. Not that I am offended. Not at all. Just humored.
Edit: I was so bemused I lost track of grammar! ;-)
Eugene wrote: "...up until now. The Narrator has never expressed remorse for his self-serving actions & thoughts--mostly ignoring the feelings of other people--not only regarding Albertine, but in regard to most ..."It is not the first time that we have felt discomfort. To name a few, there was that adolescent stroll through the countryside where every young woman he encountered was a sexual object and the voyeurism of not just coming across Charlus and Jupien, but climbing to try to get a better view.
In the present instance of the young girl, in my view the Narrator is miserable...he seeks to comfort himself with an immoral act purely self-serving with no regard for the little girl. Thinking he can make it all right with 500 francs.
He has been self absorbed and trying to buy Albertine with gifts...extravagant gifts. Even in the end trying to manipulate her with a yacht and a Rolls Royce.
I see his actions with the little girl as consistent with, as Eugene says, his lack of remorse threaded through now five volumes and into the sixth.
I find it disturbing, despicable and consistent.
Ce Ce wrote: "Eugene wrote: "Ce Ce you're such a cheerleader."Chuckling, Eugene, in all the many years of my life you are the first have ever identified me as a cheerleader. Not that I am offended. Not at all...."
Maybe it's the image of the short, pleated skirt?
Marcelita wrote: "Maybe it's the image of the short, pleated skirt?"LOL...YES, that's it! :-D
Ce Ce wrote: "Eugene wrote: "...up until now. The Narrator has never expressed remorse for his self-serving actions & thoughts--mostly ignoring the feelings of other people--not only regarding Albertine,"I see his actions with the little girl as...."
I wonder.....does he, somehow, see himself has an adolescent?
Locked into that particular "age" of man?
Marcelita wrote: "I wonder.....does he, somehow, see himself has an adolescent?Locked into that particular "age" of man? "
I'm not certain why these specific thoughts and actions...it was a different time with different awareness...and winks & nods as we saw with the surete.
I do think the honesty serves the novel in that it is unblinking and unapologetic...portraying so fully human beings who are lovable, exasperating, imperfect and sometimes despicable.
In fact, is that not each of us? Even if we each have our own unique twist, I think we are complex and not always wholly admirable. I think ISOLT is powerful because it resonates with that vulnerability we all recognize in our hearts.
We now know that treating girls and women like this is unacceptable...so we are careful and cautious...but has anything really changed in reality? Think of the lyrics to songs, abductions...children and women damaged all around us. We recognize the Narrator's actions, desires and thoughts in the world we currently live in.
As unsettling as it was...I found hope, spirit and joy in the fact that the parents protected their daughter and spurned the francs in the narrative.
Ce Ce wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "I wonder.....does he, somehow, see himself has an adolescent?Locked into that particular "age" of man? "
As unsettling as it was...I found hope, spirit and joy in the fact that the parents protected their daughter and spurned the francs in the narrative."
She must have been innocent, sharing everything with her family...oblivious to the danger she may have been in (if not with the narrator, then with another later).
A book called Lettres à sa voisine by Marcel Proust..."
From "Book Portrait"
message 118: by Book Portrait (last edited Oct 10, 2013 04:30am) Oct 10, 2013 04:27am
Listen to the audio:
http://www.franceculture.fr/emission-...
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