The Year of Reading Proust discussion
This topic is about
The Captive / The Fugitive
The Fugitive, vol. 6
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Through Sunday, 27 Oct.: The Fugitive
Kalliope wrote: "Notice how he insists that the Narrator is not himself."Yes, I did notice that he insists on that point.
It is wonderful that you have transcribed the entire interview. What patience. I will listen again while reading it but have to go out now.
Surely someone has translated this.
Marcelita will know..
Kalliope wrote: "TRANSCRIPTION OF THE INTERVIEW. Link posted by Fionnuala above in #45."Reem, Fionnuala & Kalliope: very nice team work! And an amazing job transcribing this so fast!
Here's a link with a little bit of background info. Apparently Proust sent a written reply, based on a letter sent to his friend Antoine Bibesco one year earlier (in November 1912):
http://proustien.over-blog.com/pages/...
ETA: the link seems to work fine. Just in case, here is the short introduction to the text:
"Du côté de chez Swann" paraît chez Grasset le 14 novembre 1913. L'avant-veille, donc le 12, le journal "Le Temps", daté du 13, avait publié un entretien que son journaliste littéraire Elie-Joseph Bois était censé avoir eu récemment avec l'écrivain. Or il ne s'agit pas d'un entretien spontané mais de la reproduction pure et simple d'une note que Marcel PROUST rédigea à loisir justement dans la perspective de la publication de ce premier volume de La Recherche. L'essentiel des propos "rapportés" par le journaliste se trouve d'ailleurs déjà, et parfois littéralement, dans une lettre que PROUST avait adressée à son ami Antoine Bibesco en novembre 1912, donc un an avant la publication de Swann... Mais cette bien innocente tricherie ne diminue en rien le grand intérêt de cet article que nous reproduisons in extenso: (suit le texte de l'entretien)
Fionnuala wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: ";and my absolute favorite:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTIXKU... "
Reem, I found an amazing transcribed interview with Proust on the same youtube page as your link..."
I had heard this interview and I can't believe Kalliope took the time to transcribe it. I also love the beautiful voice over,Fionnuala, which is how I would imagine Proust's voice would be like. It has the 'douceur' and sensitivity that you would expect in Proust's voice. .
Jocelyne wrote: "I had heard this interview and I can't believe Kalliope took the time to transcribe it. I also love the beautiful voice over,Fionnuala, which is how I would imagine Proust's voice would be like. It has the 'douceur' and sensitivity that you would expect in Proust's voice. ..."
It is a great interview, and yes, the voice is perfect.
The transcription was a good exercise for me... Hopefully Marcelita knows where to find the translation.
LOL.. here it is the transcription anyway... but it was a good exercise for me to do the dictée.http://www.thelinguist.com/en/fr/libr...
Proust is so economical (rare and consequently notable) in his description of character here and telling well about the person, who writes letters to the Narrator about the past goings-on of Mlle A, he has sent as an investigator.Aime...belonged to that category of working-class people who have a keen eye to their own advantage, are loyal to those they serve and indifferent to any form of morality, and of whom—because, if we pay them well, they prove themselves, in their obedience to our will, as incapable of indiscretion, lethargy or dishonesty as they are devoid of scruples—we say: "They are excellent people." ML p. 664
Yes, excellent people...who is we and who are they.
Book Portrait wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "TRANSCRIPTION OF THE INTERVIEW. Link posted by Fionnuala above in #45."Reem, Fionnuala & Kalliope: very nice team work! And an amazing job transcribing this so fast!
Here's a l..."
BookPortrait, the link does not work. Do you mind refreshing it?
Thank you.
Book Portrait wrote: "Eugene wrote: "Today I finished listening to this week's reading on Audible in my truck towing sheep..."LOL! You remind me of the Proust Lu project.
Proust anywhere, anytime works for me. :D
..."
Here is one of my favorite Proustians, Larry Bensky reading for Véronique Aubouy:
https://vimeo.com/37460004
http://www.aubouy.fr/
And Véronique Aubouy speaking about Proust:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbq3PH...
Book Portrait wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "These are the the kinds of sentences that make me keep reading. For me, Proust is all about language, emotion rendered in words."Lol. You're right. When I started reading
ETA2: I agree, Eugene, Proust has a unique diction that really comes to life when we listen to Proust being read. Kalliope posted a link to a series of articles in the francophone thread about the actors who recorded Proust. This one is about reading Proust out loud:..
http://www.la-croix.com/Culture/Livre... "
This is too interesting not to fake-translate:
http://translate.google.com/translate...
Marcelita wrote: "LOL! You remind me of the Proust Lu project.
Proust anywhere, anytim..."
Thank you for these. She speaks of her filming of a read of extracts the whole work. It is the first time I hear of it. She read La recherche in her twenties while she traveled through Latin America.
It seems four of the books have been finished.
http://www.aubouy.fr/proust-lu.html
References to war and war tactics are also found in the section this week...comme dans ces guerres modernes où les préparations de l'artillerie, la formidable portée des engins, ne font que retarder le moment où l'homme se jette sur l'homme et où c'est le coeur le plus fort qui a le dessus.p. 164.
Book Portrait wrote: "In the passage where the narrator thinks about the type of woman he falls in love with (is it fair to say it's the elusive one, the one that will make him suffer the most?) he compares Albertine to Gilberte and then, in another clue as to the overall architecture of his novel, he compares both to Vinteuil's petite phrase (Gilberte) et septuor (Albertine). ...""But the transition from white hawthorn to pink thorn (note the progression of colours: the Sonata is white, the Septet will be red)...." p 82
Proust as Musician
By Jean-Jacques Nattiez
http://books.google.com/books?id=LD_p...
Given that my Audio edition is based on the Pléiade and that I am reading the G-F, I have found considerable differences, mostly in the placing of certain fragments, between the two. But I have just encountered one instance in which the G-F has not made an error found in the Pléiade.
One sentence is repeated in the Audio.
Pourquoi ne m'avait-elle pas dit : "J'ai ces goûts", j'aurais cédé, je lui aurais permis de les satisfaire, en ce moment je l'embrasserais encore. in page 168.
The audio also included it page 166. So, this sentence is read twice.
This shows us how very very difficult must have been the whole editing process of these volumes and how even for Proust, (given how weak he was feeling and how precarious were his working tools or set up), it must have been.
Marcelita wrote: "Book Portrait wrote: "In the passage where the narrator thinks about the type of woman he falls in love with (is it fair to say it's the elusive one, the one that will make him suffer the most?) he..."This difference in the colors (white vs red) of the two musical pieces had been posted before (in French). In the relevant thread of last volume.
We get a fascinating, and frightening meditation on immortality. The idea of dying is worse than dying itself, but better than the idea that someone else has died.L'idée qu'on mourra est plus cruelle que mourir, mais moins que l'idée qu'un autre est mort, que, redevenue plane après avoir englouti un être, s'étend, sans même un remous à cette place-là une réalité d'où cet être est exclu, où n'existe plus aucun vouloir, aucune connaissance,....
And now something very interesting. He finds that the reality of the existence of someone who has died is as solid as that of the memory we have of a fictitious character from a book.....!!!!
the following passage follows straight from the above, but I wanted to underline this aspect...
.... et de laquelle, el est aussi difficile de remonter à l'idée que cet être a vécu, qu'il est difficile du souvenir encore tout récent de sa vie, de penser qu'il est assimilable aux images sans consistance, aux souvenirs laissés par les personnages d'un roman qu'on a lu. p. 168.
For us, of course, Albertine is the character of a book we have read.
Kalliope wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Book Portrait wrote: "In the passage where the narrator thinks about the type of woman he falls in love"This difference in the colors (white vs red) of the two musical pieces had been posted before (in French). In the relevant thread of last volume."
Yes, thank you. Also, a reminder for those interested (spoilers) to read about Albertine and "blue" next year--
The Color-keys to "A la Recherche Du Temps Perdu"
By Allan H. Pasco
So far he has been speaking as a non-believer and by that I mean someone who does not believe there is an after life -- without referring to any allegiance to any religion...But now he is ready to contemplate the existence of an after life, and the chilling thought occurs to him that if the loved ones can know how we miss them, they can also know everything that goes through our minds.
So when he comes to the realization that his desire that Albertine would know that he was remembering her, also meant that his grandmother would know that he had forgotten her....
Chilling... horrifying thought.
..j'étais effrayé de penser que si les morts vivent quelque part, ma grand-mère connaissait aussi bien mon oubli, qu'Albertine mon souvenir. p. 170.
And later on he begins to accept the idea of an after life but it does not satisfy him.
... je commençais à croire possible l'immortalité de l'âme. Mais elle ne me suffisait plus. p. 171.
Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Book Portrait wrote: "In the passage where the narrator thinks about the type of woman he falls in love"This difference in the colors (white vs red) of the two ..."
Thank you... I would like to write that book myself...!!!! LOL....
Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Book Portrait wrote: "In the passage where the narrator thinks about the type of woman he falls in love"This difference in the colors (white vs red) of the two ..."
This takes me to a quote from Ruskin that I read a little while ago in Ruskin's Venice: The Stones Revisited.
The perception of colour is a gift just as definitely granted to one person, and denied to another, as an ear for music...
Proust could very well have read this. It comes from The Stones of Venice. The book above is a selection of the full work.
We have Proust's last letter to Agostinelli.Does anybody know if we have A's last letter or telegram to Proust?..
And isn't it sad and ironic that here we all are remembering Albert Agostinelli thanks to Proust having fictionalized him in his novel?
And that is why I posted his photograph at the beginning of this Thread.
Proust has given him a sort of eternity.
Fionnuala wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: ";and my absolute favorite:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTIXKU... "
Reem, I found an amazing transcribed interview with Proust on the same youtube page as your link..."
I found the same "interview," but on another site last year.
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/26099774...
At the Columbia Proust Conference, Proust ReRead/Proust Relu, during the round table discussion, this 1913 interview was discussed in terms of the novel being seen as "philosphical" by some...then and now.
I just checked the website, but the conference video has not yet been uploaded.
http://maisonfrancaise.org/centennial...
Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Notice how he insists that the Narrator is not himself."Yes, I did notice that he insists on that point.
It is wonderful that you have transcribed the entire interview.
Surely someone has translated this.
Marcelita will know."
Sorry, I was at the MET (textiles) and the Frick ("not the people") and finally to Casa Italiana/NYU to hear Dr. Valerie Steele. (her chapter on Proust in "Paris History" is required reading for the Saturday pagers: http://books.google.com/books?id=Vwhi... )
I'm sure Kalliope's translation is better. :)
You will need to tell me, if these are correct.
French?
http://www.litteratureaudio.com/forum...
English?
http://translate.googleusercontent.co...
Kalliope wrote: "This takes me to a quote from Ruskin that I read a little while ago in Ruskin's Venice: The Stones Revisited.The perception of colour is a gift just as definitely granted to one person, and denied to another, as an ear for music...
Proust could very well have read this. It comes from The Stones of Venice. The book above is a selection of the full work. "
Glad you are getting to read Ruskin's Venice before you go, Kalliope. I first heard it mentioned in a book I read once before a trip to Florence, Mary McCarthy'sThe Stones of Florence & Venice Observed - and which you might also enjoy. But hers doesn't appeal to the sensibilities in that soaring Ruskin/Proust way you've pointed out above, there was a more of a down among the paving stones feel about it.
Yes, Agostinelli has been well and truly immortalised - and how ironic considering the dilapidated state of his tomb in Nice which was described in one of the links posted somewhere.
And you should write a book about Proust and colour!
Marcelita wrote: "In English?http://translate.googleusercontent.co... ."
Knew you'd come up with it, Marcelita!
I'll read it later - am about to leave on a trip...
Marcelita wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Notice how he insists that the Narrator is not himself."Yes, I did notice that he insists on that point.
It is wonderful that you have transcribed the entire in..."
Marcelita, I did not translate it. I transcribed it and then, after doing it, I found a page with the French text posted above.
Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "This takes me to a quote from Ruskin that I read a little while ago in Ruskin's Venice: The Stones Revisited.The perception of colour is a gift just as definitely granted to one p..."
Ruskin is a "old" friend of mine. One of my professors was a Ruskinian and very often he would begin his lecture with a Ruskin quote.
Some of us also read some Ruskin just before starting Proust. It is in the folder of preliminary readings, but I must say that I did not see the relevance to Proust then. In my mind Ruskin was so Victorian and Proust to me so French...
But now with this book which has selections of the 3 vols of the Stones of Venice, I am recognizing Proust. Between Ruskin and Mâle, Proust was well equipped for his interest in cathedrals and Venitian art.
Beautiful prose in Ruskin.
Thank you for the Venice and Florence book but I will not have time to deal with it now.. Will have to plan a trip to Florence then.
When are you back?
Kalliope wrote: "But now with this book which has selections of the 3 vols of the Stones of Venice, I am recognizing Proust. Between Ruskin and Mâle, Proust was well equipped for his interest in cathedrals and Venitian art.."Yes - You are as well equipped as Proust was, Kall! Do enjoy Venice et à bientôt - en trois semaines...
Fionnuala wrote: "Agostinelli has been well and truly immortalised - and how ironic considering the dilapidated state of his tomb in Nice which was described in one of the links posted somewhere.Quite so... may be because it is the Albertine/Agostinelli of the two Marcel's imagination... which are, however, plus "réel" than reality.
Eugene wrote: "who is we and who are they?"Good point, Eugene. Proust himself was a very generous tipper and went out of his way to appreciate the working class. Now again in this chapter we have mention of Mme Putbus's maid, which I would think ties into your statements.
Is there also a sense that the "grass is greener?" That he would rather drop from society and into the ranks of laborers? Or is it the frequent observation that the so-called elite and "faithful" of the salons have no higher station than a working-man (in fact they may be less so--no they are at times).
A lot of ramble for a Saturday morning, but I have to work today. :)
Martin wrote: Good point, Eugene. Proust himself was a very generous tipper and went out of his way to appreciate the working class.Alain de Botton said he liked to give a 200% service charge!
And is it much more absurd, when all is said, to regret that a woman who no longer exists is unaware that we have learned what she was doing six years ago than to desire that of ourselves, who will be dead, the public shall still speak with approval a century hence? Moncrieff 100 years, hmm...I suspect that Proust wouldn't have minded Proustians had they treaded lightly & not disturbed him. "Rollover Beethoven, tell Tchaikovsky the news..."
The Modern Library translation of chapter one is called "Grieving and Forgetting" and spans almost 200 pages. It is rich; being over midway through, the revelations of the older Narrator astound and tantalize me, not only by his going back to the past & showing the similarities to now: Combray, Mamma, the kiss, but most importantly, with the promise of going forward into the future with his new understanding.
Kalliope wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "This takes me to a quote from Ruskin that I read a little while ago in Ruskin's Venice: The Stones Revisited.The perception of colour is a gift just as definitel..."
Here is Ruskin, "talking" about Venice:
http://www.pinterest.com/pin/26099774...
Plus, audio of John Ruskin's "The Seven Lamps of Architecture"
https://archive.org/details/seven_lam...
Audio: The Stones of Venice
http://librivox.org/the-stones-of-ven...
More: https://archive.org/search.php?query=...
Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "This takes me to a quote from Ruskin that I read a little while ago in Ruskin's Venice: The Stones Revisited.The perception of colour is a gift ..."
Thank you Marcelita... It will take me a while to work through these. But I have to keep the references for later... Look excellent.
Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "This takes me to a quote from Ruskin that I read a little while ago in Ruskin's Venice: The Stones Revisited.The perception of colour is a gift ..."
I have looked at the Ruskin video and posted something in next week, Marcelita.
Kalliope: "we all are remembering Albert Agostinelli thanks to Proust having fictionalized him in his novel"Listen to this, from Sappho:
You may forget but
Let me tell you
this: someone in
some future time
will think of us.
written c. 6th century B.C.
After all these years, it still gives me cold chills.
The best marriage and childrearing advice I have ever received: "Whatever our social position, however wise our precautions, when the truth is confessed we have no hold over the life of another person." MP p 683
Phillida wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Jocelyne wrote: "I had heard this interview and I can't believe Kalliope took the time to transcribe it. I also love the beautiful voice over,Fionnuala, which is how I would imagin..."You are welcome, Phillida. I may try to translate it into English.. I can start with the google translate and working on the waffle that comes out of the algorithms. But it will not be a beautiful translation... :(
Elizabeth wrote: "Listen to this, from Sappho:
You may forget but
Let me tell you
this: someone in
so..."
You are phenomenal, Elizabeth. You have read everything.
Kalliope: no...only the things I like!
Elizabeth wrote: "Kalliope: no...only the things I like!"But then... you like many things...
:)
Elizabeth wrote: "Kalliope: "we all are remembering Albert Agostinelli thanks to Proust having fictionalized him in his novel"Listen to this, from Sappho:
You may forget but
Let me tell you
this: someone in
so..."
Chilling indeed, Elizabeth, and I agree with Kalliope, you are a little literary wikipedia.
Marcelita wrote: "The best marriage and childrearing advice I have ever received: "Whatever our social position, however wise our precautions, when the truth is confessed we have no hold over the life of another p..."
So fitting!
Back on the Proust wagon after a couple of weeks off it, feeling exasperated and disgruntled by his younger narrator creation, a monster of manipulation. Thanks again to the regulars and recent posters for keeping me afloat and interested. Didn't give up "5 minutes before the miracle"! This week felt like a watershed. A crystallization in his memory allowed him access to, perhaps, the truth about Albertine. The bath-wrap. A clue he sent detective Aime in pursuit of...and Aime goes to bed with the star witness. It's so dizzying and compelling to me. Even in my disgruntlement I didn't lose my love of the fearless frankness of MP: the narrator is a self confessed coward, a lazy procrastinator, and now at last selfish. I loved the observation: "...we are not free to refrain from forging the chains of our own misery." I think I love him for his truth telling and for the style and invention of his truth telling. But above all - and at this stage - for his nagging away at a mystery: how can we be artfully present to the 'now' do that maybe we won't need memory?? Or something like that %)
@ Elizabeth yes the Sappho lines chilled me too, though in a way I liked! Guess I like to be chilled
Marcus wrote: "Back on the Proust wagon after a couple of weeks off it, feeling exasperated and disgruntled by his younger narrator creation, a monster of manipulation. Thanks again to the regulars and recent po..."Yes, Marcus, the narrator's willingness to lay bare and fully expose his shadowy side renders him more human and elicits our sympathy, I think. I may have felt differently, though, I believe, if the novel had been told in the third person. This feels more like a confession to me, and since the narrator so candidly trusts us with these less than admirable aspects of his personality, I almost feel compelled to respond to it with openness and understanding, rather than repulsion.
Marcus wrote: "Back on the Proust wagon after a couple of weeks off it, feeling exasperated and disgruntled by his younger narrator creation, a monster of manipulation. Thanks again to the regulars and recent po..."Yes, that is exactly what I like, and admire (!) in the Narrator. As you say, Marcus, his honesty in his self-analysis and his willingness to disclose that which gives you the impression that he is selfish, and manipulator, etc.. etc... , to me is so very baffling.
One simply cannot hope to amend oneself if one is not able to see through the one's self.
Jocelyne wrote: "Marcus wrote: "Back on the Proust wagon after a couple of weeks off it, feeling exasperated and disgruntled by his younger narrator creation, a monster of manipulation. Thanks again to the regular..."Jocelyne, I had not seen that you also agreed with Marcus. You have a very good point about the 3rd person narrator (there is something on this in next week's reading). It does feel like a confession.
Early on when I began reading ISOLT, I formed a question, one of several, with which I would read the novel. What I wanted to better understand was the relation of art to jealousy (both major themes in the work) and here Proust, in the voice of the reflective Narrator, points to an answer for me or I should say a working answer as that will leave me with "endless suppositions" which is what I want reading a work of art.It is one of the faculties of jealousy to reveal to us the extent to which the reality of external facts and the sentiments of the heart are an unknown element which lends itself to endless suppositions. ML p. 699
When one encounters a chef-d'oeuvre (I think of the portraits of Mme Cézanne in the Met) one has new-found suppositions that are different from the suppositions we entertained at a previous encounter and will be different from suppositions we are handed at the next visit, thinking of Cézanne at the Met, or the next encounter with Proust's words when we open the pages of ISOLT again.
Art, and I mean good art, is like jealousy--it is living--always changing us in front of it, as Albertine changes for her lover and as does the Narrator after her departure, in those "endless suppositions".
..."Mademoiselle Albertine has gone" was like an allegory of countless other separations. For very often, in order that we may discover that we are in love, perhaps indeed in order that we may fall in love, the day of separation must first have come. ML p. 683
The Year of Reading Proust
Books mentioned in this topic
Le hors-sujet: Proust et la digression (other topics)Marcel Proust (other topics)
The Stones of Florence & Venice Observed (other topics)
Ruskin's Venice: The Stones Revisited (other topics)
The Stones of Venice (other topics)
Yes, I remember the train metaphor in your review...!!!!... and also how, I think, he mentioned the two sides depending on which way he looked.
Notice how he insists that the Narrator is not himself.
And that a rational approach to things does not get the "vérité".