The Year of Reading Proust discussion
This topic is about
The Captive / The Fugitive
The Fugitive, vol. 6
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Through Sunday, 3 Nov.: The Fugitive
Eugene wrote: "Book Portrait wrote: I haven't found this line in this week's section. Maybe it's in next week's? In any case this is a highly quotable Proust bit! :)"Being in NYC yesterday..."
Eugene, can you attend the Shattuck Conference on November 9th, 2pm?
The Center for Fiction.
http://www.centerforfiction.org/calen...
Book Portrait wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "I've been thinking about la petite phrase a lot lately (isn't the Recherche just so full of thought-provoking material?) and as ...""A couple of years ago they aired a radio programme on "Proust et la musique" on France Inter (I posted the link in the francophone thread) which you might enjoy...."
I just forward that link to James Connelly, who loves music...and Marcel.
http://www.proust-ink.com/invites/con...
The best reference for the music in Proust was collected by Mr. Connelly.
http://www.proust-ink.com/proust_play...
He also wrote a chapter in "Marcel Proust - Une vie en musiques" avec 2 CD audio
http://www.decitre.fr/livres/marcel-p...
Eugene wrote: "Book Portrait wrote: I haven't found this line in this week's section. Maybe it's in next week's? In any case this is a highly quotable Proust bit! :)Il n'y a pas une idée qui ne porte en elle sa..."
You have certainly stuck to your discipline, Eugene, and we are all the better for it. I still have this image of you listening to La Recherche in a truck full of sheep.
Book Portrait wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Book Portrait wrote: "Well I lied. Here's another comment from me. :pTo those who visited Cabourg this summer, were you able to visit Proust's room? It was occupied when I was t..."
You are right about the fumigation. Oddly enough, I never thought of him doing his fumigations in Cabourg, since, supposedly, he went there because the air was better for his lungs. Anyway, there was no lingering smell when I saw it!
Kalliope wrote: "And of course, the "coup de cygne" and Albertine's leg is a reference to the myth of Léda and the Swan, and of course, Proust makes it explicit....And a modern one which makes me think that may be CeCe can also tackle the subject in her drawing class..."
Intimidating company for me! I have been considering an anthromorphic drawing...but sans a swan.
I am sorry if I am repeating anyone's post...I am just scrolling quickly through. The swan/Albertine reference reminded me of the film, "Black Swan" with Natalie Portman.
The production of Tchaikovsky's Swan Lake..."The production requires a ballerina to play the innocent and fragile White Swan, for which the committed dancer Nina (Portman) is a perfect fit, as well as the dark and sensual Black Swan, which are qualities embodied by the new arrival Lily (Kunis)..." Wikipedia
The Narrator in Albertine's life and death has wrestled in his obsessions and jealousies with Albertine as his innocent and fragile "White Swan" and an unpossessable (word?) sensual "Black Swan".
Jocelyne wrote: "You [Eugene] have certainly stuck to your discipline, Eugene, and we are all the better for it. I still have this image of you listening to La Recherche in a truck full of sheep."I second that...and the truck full of sheep while listening to La Recherche is a "take away" image from this year! ;-)
Concerning Grieving and Forgetting: The Narrator is in stress after Albertine has left him and has died in an accident and for that stress that he suffers, he vacillates between love, jealousy, grief et al over her. I will not say he contradicts himself but he does move to polar opposites that are not congruent with one another much as he did when she was living with him in the torment of jealousy/love and boredom with his dreams of escape from it.That is the story and that is how this reader the "finds completion" of it: the Narrator is selfish, in love because separated by death as if he were still jealous (and he still has posthumous bouts of it), forgiving, understanding and FORGETTING.
By forgetting without a satisfactory resolution--for me--it seems that the Narrator *sweeps something under the carpet*. But this is a story of an imperfect young man and I accept that, as almost all readers have getting to this volume. Those who didn't accept the imperfection of it, folded along the way and are reading something else that pleases them and they can find their completion in in what to them is more agreeable.
This week's reading is rich in insight and probably more insightful because of what Proust doesn't say that requires the reader's completion; but before that, with Proust, we have questions. What if we find no satisfactory completion in the following pages, what then? What if we only find questions? Do we make up a satisfactory understanding of it, do we posit rational answers and insult the writing--the art--that has been the reward of reading this work up until now. This is a democratic world and we are free to do either.
Though out the evening, I hope, I will post quotes of what Proust does say in English.
Eugene wrote: "But this is a story of an imperfect young man and I accept that, as almost all readers have getting to this volume.... What if we only find questions?"
Beautifully stated, Eugene. These volumes to me have read as an eloquent exploration of life and humanity. Gloriously confused and imperfect as we are...with all the hills and valleys and paths traveled...as well as those not taken.
As the years have passed in my own life there were the early years when I thought I knew everything. There was black and white. Then the years unfolded...and the full range of grays...from pearl to charcoal emerged. And I realized I knew nothing. That life is questioning, seeking, exploring...and in the end there is no definitive answer...simply awareness and knowledge...and new generations of human beings at various stages of discovery.
Swann gets a wish,"Babal" she said, "maintains that we are the two most elegant people in Paris because he and I are the only two people who do not allow Mme and Mile Swann to greet
us. For he assures me that elegance consists in not knowing Mme Swann." And the Duchess laughed heartily.
However, when Swann was dead...
She then felt almost a longing to make reparation, because she pictured
them (the dead) now—though very vaguely—with only their good qualities, and stripped of the petty satisfactions, the petty pretensions, which had irritated her in them when they were alive.
"...Apparently the child is quite charming..." the Duchess says to the Duke. ML p. 780 and p. 783
Eugene wrote: "Concerning Grieving and Forgetting: The Narrator is in stress after Albertine has left him and has died in an accident and for that stress that he suffers, he vacillates between love, jealousy, gri..."I'm just doing a really quick power browse through these comments, and it seems to me that the narrator is purposely punishing himself by subjecting himself to all this emotionally troubling thought as he does this investigation of Albertine's liasons. It is a very masochistic indulgence that brings both pain and pleasure to him.
Marcelita wrote: ...can you attend the Shattuck Conference on November 9th, 2pm?The Center for Fiction.
http://www.centerforfiction.org/calen...
Let's do Proust! But I must leave by 4:30 PM to be back at Union Square.
Lou Reed died a week ago Sunday; in the Velvet Underground's "Run, Run, Run" he sings,
Gonna take a walk down to Union Square
You never know who you're gonna find there
Eugene wrote: "Marcelita wrote: ...can you attend the Shattuck Conference on November 9th, 2pm?The Center for Fiction.
http://www.centerforfiction.org/calen...
Let's do Proust! But I must leave by 4:30 PM to b..."
How wonderful!
You will only miss the Roundtable, but The Center usually tapes their events.
I will be attending the Nomadic Reading in the morning...
SAT, NOV 9 | 10 AM - 1 PM
Soho Rep.
46 Walker Street, New York, NY
Free & open to the public. No RSVP necessary.
but I will try to save you a seat. (I sent The Center a RSVP email, just in case.)
Eugene wrote: "Marcelita wrote: ...can you attend the Shattuck Conference on November 9th, 2pm?Lou Reed died a week ago Sunday; in the Velvet Underground's "Run, Run, Run" he sings,
Gonna take a walk down to Union Square
You never know who you're gonna find there..."
Remember...Proust loved the "popular" music of his day. (Details for another evening.)
I listened to two great radio retrospectives/interviews on Lou Reed last night.
Check out the time limitations to listen...usually two weeks from broadcast.
""Lou just dropped by to chat," writes Vin. "It is a casual, warm and humorous visit in which he talks about his relationship with the Czech Republic poet/president Václav Havel and describes his appearance, a few months earlier, at the White House dinner President Clinton held to honor President Havel."
http://www.wfuv.org/blog/vin-scelsa-s...
"Lou Reed might be at the very zenith of New York's rock and roll constellation, but his impact on British music is just as profound..."
http://www.wfuv.org/blog/lou-reed-rem...
Eugene wrote: "...the copyable Proust webpage wouldn't open so I found this in Wikiquotes. I thought I'd missed it and was going back today to see its context but maybe its coming..."LOL. I see. You throw Wikiquotes at us to check if we are reading on schedule. :)
You skim the comments? *narrows eyes* You skim our lovingly-crafted, thought-provoking, mind-blowing, earth-shattering comments?!... I betcha you look at the pictures though. :D
One comment a day? Methinks you're a liltle behind. If the Derrida-esque quote is in next week's section, you'll have plenty of room to tell us a bit more about it. :p
Marcelita wrote: "He also wrote a chapter in "Marcel Proust - Une vie en musiques" avec 2 CD audiohttp://www.decitre.fr/livres/marcel-p..."
This looks amazing! I know what I want for Christmas. :D
ETA: Marcelita, did you see this one? It's two CDs with music and readings combined:
http://www.amazon.fr/Marcel-Proust-mu...
The above is a limited edition. The regular double CD (€15) is here:
http://www.amazon.fr/gp/product/B0065...
ETA2: In Céleste Albaret's Monsieur Proust, she tells that in 1920 Proust had the Quatuor Poulet come to his apartment (then rue Hamelin) to play just for him César Franck's Quatuor. They're professional musicians and he paid them handsomely to listen to this music all by himself. Céleste suggests he was then writing the passages on the Septuor...
I'm going to be a music buff when I'm done with La Recherche, thanks to you all! :)
Fionnuala wrote: "We just stood outside the Hausmann building and tried to imagine it!Re the Tolstoy novella about jealousy, Book Portrait, I'm not recommending it - it was the music that inspired it which better ..."
I can't find photos online of what 102, bld Haussmann looks like. The French ministry of culture (or some fantastically generous Proust passionate) should buy the building the moment it's on the market and turn it into a decent Proust museum!!
I'll start with Beethoven's sonata and take it from there. :)
Jocelyne wrote: "You are right about the fumigation. Oddly enough, I never thought of him doing his fumigations in Cabourg, since, supposedly, he went there because the air was better for his lungs. Anyway, there was no lingering smell when I saw it!"I was just reading Céleste's wonderful book and her vivid way of telling her memories imprinted the scene in my mind. She is a wonderful personnage, even if she is definitely biased when it comes to her beloved M. Proust. She is furious at all the gossip and silly stories that flourished about him and she wants to set the record straight! :)
Eugene wrote: "Swann gets a wish,"Babal" she said, "maintains that we are the two most elegant people in Paris because he and I are the only two people who do not allow Mme and Mile Swann to greet
us. For he as..."
He gets his wish but what a rough world that of aristocracy and les mondains! Mme de Guermantes was cold and harsh with Swann (she wasn't the only to ostracize him but she maintained her line the longest it seems, or with the most power).
The tragedy for Swann is that for his daughter to enter that world, she has to lose his name, his heritage. Fortunately Gilberte apparently has his talent for shining in salons but that's meagre consolation...
And in a typical Proustian move, Gilberte is the most fascinated with those who hurt his father. A great paragraph:
Quant à Gilberte, toutes les personnes qui l'aimaient et avaient un peu d'amour-propre pour elle n'eussent pu se réjouir du changement de dispositions de la duchesse à son égard qu'en pensant que Gilberte, en repoussant dédaigneusement des avances qui venaient après vingt-cinq ans d'outrages, dût enfin venger ceux-ci. Malheureusement, les réflexes moraux ne sont pas toujours identiques à ce que le bon sens imagine. Tel qui par une injure mal à propos a cru perdre à tout jamais ses ambitions auprès d'une personne à qui il tient les sauve au contraire par là. Gilberte, assez indifférente aux personnes qui étaient aimables pour elle, ne cessait de penser avec admiration à l'insolente Mme de Guermantes, à se demander les raisons de cette insolence; même une fois, ce qui eût fait mourir de honte pour elle tous les gens qui lui témoignaient un peu d'amitié, elle avait voulu écrire à la duchesse pour lui demander ce qu'elle avait contre une jeune fille qui ne lui avait rien fait. Les Guermantes avaient pris à ses yeux des proportions que leur noblesse eût été impuissante à leur donner. Elle les mettait au-dessus non seulement de toute la noblesse, mais même de toutes les familles royales. p240
Kalliope wrote: "In the footnote it says that her [Mme de Boigne's] Mémoires began appearing from 1907 and that Proust wrote about them in Le Figaro on the 20th March 1907 in a long article Journées de lecture (I have to check whether I have it in Ecrits Sur L'Art). "I don't know if it's in les Ecrit sur l'Art but it's in a cheap librio (€2), also available for Kindle:
http://www.amazon.fr/Sur-lecture-Suiv...
Just for the pleasure {and because some skim the comments but maybe look at the pictures ;) }, voici Madame de Boigne:
Adèle d'Osmond, Comtesse de Boigne (born Adélaïde Charlotte Louise Éléonore d'Osmond) (10 February 1781 – 10 May 1866) was a French aristocrat and writer. She was born and raised at the Palace of Versailles before her family went into exile in 1790 during the French Revolution. She returned to Paris in 1804 during the reign of Napoleon, and became prominent in society after the restoration of the Bourbons in 1814. She kept a brilliant salon in Paris in the 1830s and 1840s, and was later known for her memoirs describing life under the July Monarchy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad%C3%A8...
We get a rare glimpse at the Narrator. Unless it's the Author as identifying the person corretly is often a moving target in Proust's novel where the switches from Protagonist to Narrator to Author are not always clear-cut. This key passage feels so autobiographic, it's hard to not imagine Proust speaking directly to us from his bed:
Pour d'autres amis, je me disais que, si l'état de ma santé continuait à s'aggraver et si je ne pouvais plus les voir, il serait agréable de continuer à écrire pour avoir encore par là accès auprès d'eux, pour leur parler entre les lignes, les faire penser à mon gré, leur plaire, être reçu dans leur coeur. Je me disais cela parce que, les relations mondaines ayant eu jusqu'ici une place dans ma vie quotidienne, un avenir où elles ne figureraient plus m'effrayait, et que cet expédient qui me permettrait de retenir sur moi l'attention de mes amis, peut-être d'exciter leur admiration, jusqu'au jour où je serais assez bien pour recommencer à les voir, me consolait. Je me disais cela, mais je sentais bien que ce n'était pas vrai, que si j'aimais à me figurer leur attention comme l'objet de mon plaisir, ce plaisir était un plaisir intérieur, spirituel, ultime, qu'eux ne pouvaient me donner et que je pouvais trouver non en causant avec eux, mais en écrivant loin d'eux, et que, si je commençais à écrire pour les voir indirectement, pour qu'ils eussent une meilleure idée de moi, pour me préparer une meilleure situation dans le monde, peut-être écrire m'ôterait l'envie de les voir, et que la situation que la littérature m'aurait peut-être faite dans le monde, je n'aurais plus envie d'en jouir, car mon plaisir ne serait plus dans le monde mais dans la littérature. p 233
Another passage where the Narrator muses on "reality" and argues that the world we perceive through pyschology, photography, etc only gives a distorted understanding of the world.Notre tort est de croire que les choses se présentent habituellement telles qu'elles sont en réalité, les noms tels qu'ils sont écrits, les gens tels que la photographie et la psychologie donnent d'eux une notion immobile. En fait ce n'est pas du tout cela que nous percevons d'habitude. Nous voyons, nous entendons, nous concevons le monde tout de travers.
(...)
Cette perpétuelle erreur, qui est précisément «la vie», ne donne pas ses mille formes seulement à l'univers visible et à l'univers audible, mais à l'univers social, à l'univers sentimental, à l'univers historique, etc.
(...)
Nous n'avons de l'univers que des visions informes, fragmentées et que nous complétons par des associations d'idées arbitraires, créatrices de dangereuses suggestions. p235
"La vie est une perpétuelle erreur" (life is a continuous error)...
Incidentally this is where we learn that the young blonde is none other than... Gilberte!!
From my iPod I cannot do the reply thing.I have already purchased the Mermoires of Adèle d'Osmond. I think I posted this earlier in the thread. She has also come up in an earlier volume and I think it was Fionnuala who posted on this also.
A refresher on Latin. :)A toutes les raisons, tirées de la façon Guermantes de comprendre la vie mondaine, qui avaient décidé la duchesse à ne jamais se laisser présenter Mme et Mlle Swann, on peut ajouter aussi cette assurance heureuse avec laquelle, les gens qui n'aiment pas se tiennent à l'écart de ce qu'ils blâment chez les amoureux et que l'amour de ceux-ci explique. «Oh! je ne me mêle pas à tout ça; si ça amuse le pauvre Swann de faire des bêtises et de ruiner son existence, c'est son affaire, mais on ne sait pas avec ces choses-là, tout ça peut très mal finir, je les laisse se débrouiller.» C'est le Suave mari magno que Swann lui-même me conseillait à l'égard des Verdurin, quand il avait depuis longtemps cessé d'être amoureux d'Odette et ne tenait plus au petit clan. C'est tout ce qui rend si sages les jugements des tiers sur les passions qu'ils n'éprouvent pas et les complications de conduite qu'elles entraînent. p238
Suave mari magno was probably explained in the early days of the group but for those (me!) who wonder:
Suave mari magno is the start of a verse in book II of Lucretius' De Rerum Natura/The Nature of Things which means "how pleasant when on a great sea" and continues:
Suave mari magno, turbantibus æquora ventis, e terra magnum alterius spectare laborem
How pleasant when on a great sea the winds have raised its waters into billows, to witness the perils of another from the land
http://www.eudict.com/?lang=lateng&am...
Qu’il est doux quand les vents lèvent la mer immense,
D’assister du rivage au combat des marins !
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucr%C3%...
Autrement dit: les malheurs auxquels on échappe sont parfois un grand bonheur
http://www.oomark.com/les_mots_pour_l...
A Schadenfreude of sort that recommends people witness tragedies from afar (and enjoy it!).
Kalliope wrote: "From my iPod I cannot do the reply thing.I have already purchased the Mermoires of Adèle d'Osmond. I think I posted this earlier in the thread. She has also come up in an earlier volume and I thi..."
Hi Kalliope! Yes I saw your comment, I just wanted to link a cheap French version of "Journées de lecture". Marcelita found a free copy online in English but I have no luck in French. It's short so if I you (or someone else) want I can type it up and post it here. :)
As you can see I'm hogging the comment thread a little (I hope that's okay with you!). ^^ When are you back from dreamy Venice?
Book Portrait wrote: ...I betcha you look at the pictures though. :DOnly the nudes.
And: This key passage feels so autobiographic, it's hard to not imagine Proust speaking directly to us from his bed:
Pour d'autres amis...je n'aurais plus envie d'en jouir, car mon plaisir ne serait plus dans le monde mais dans la littérature. p 233
Autobiographical yes, in fact the entire writing/publishing/reading passage is not-fiction or closely based on Proust's reality, but recall a similar turn in Swann in Love where Swann thinks that that being out of love with Odette will free him from his jealousy and he can think that being free of jealousy's torment will be a relief but being out of love with her will cause him to not think of jealousy or Odette at all. I think Proust writes a turn similar in the Albertine cycle.
Kalliope wrote: "From my iPod I cannot do the reply thing.I have already purchased the Mermoires of Adèle d'Osmond. I think I posted this earlier in the thread. She has also come up in an earlier volume and I thi..."
Are you already in Venice Kalliope?
"The Healing of a Madman" (1494) Galleria dell'Academia, Venise
"On the back of one of the compagni della Calza identifiable from the emblem, embroidered in gold and pearls on their sleeves or their collars, of the merry confraternity to which they were affiliated, I had just recognized the cloak which Albertine had put on to come with me to Versailles."
— The Fugitive
This looks familiar. It's been posted before hasn't it? Oh well, nice and pink.
Book Portrait wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "He also wrote a chapter in "Marcel Proust - Une vie en musiques" avec 2 CD audiohttp://www.decitre.fr/livres/marcel-p..."
"ETA2: In Céleste Albaret's Monsieur Proust, she tells that in 1920 Proust had the Quatuor Poulet come to his apartment (then rue Hamelin) to play just for him César Franck's Quatuor. They're professional musicians and he paid them handsomely to listen to this music all by himself. Céleste suggests he was then writing the passages on the Septuor.... :..."
Listened to a Hahn snippet...and re-posted. Thank you, BP!
http://www.amazon.fr/gp/dmusic/media/...
Please remind me, as I rush to catch a train, to discuss the discrepancies of what was actually played that evening. I believe have it in one my filing drawers...a musician's memory vs another's.
Yes, Céleste, "the protector," vs the letters and the police blotter.
Book Portrait wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "In the footnote it says that her [Mme de Boigne's] Mémoires began appearing from 1907 and that Proust wrote about them in Le Figaro on the 20th March 1907 in a long article Journée..."Mme de Boigne's Mémoires:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/29613/...
Book Portrait wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "From my iPod I cannot do the reply thing.I have already purchased the Mermoires of Adèle d'Osmond. I think I posted this earlier in the thread. She has also come up in an earlier
"Marcelita found a free copy online in English but I have no luck in French..."
The English translation I found on Chris Taylor's site, http://www.yorktaylors.free-online.co...
"1. Journées de lecture was published in Le Figaro on 20 March 1907, but the editors chose to cut this entire passage. This is taken from the original manuscript. The passage would have been placed immediately before the last two paragraphs of the published piece." Chris Taylor
Proust letter to Reynaldo Hahn:Nuit de lundi à mardi [18 à 19 mars 1907] 1
Ounl/rch/ni/buls
Je viens de lire mes épreuves. On a coupé tout le long passage pour lequel l'article était fait, la seule chose qui me plût 2. Je vous montrerai sur broulon, verrez si je dis mensonges. J'en suis navré autant que ce genre de choses peuvent 3 affecter ma sensibilité (c'est-à-dire aucunement). Mais si n'importe qui vous parle de et de, dites hardiment - sans crainte de mentir : " Le mieux a été coupé, cela n'a plus aucun sens "
Hir (tre) n'y boulse.
1. Hahn 132 (n° LXXXV). Ce billet ne porte que la date Nuit de lundi à mardi; elle doit être de la nuit du lundi à mardi 18 à 19 mars 1907. Voir la note 2 ci-après.
2. Il s'agit de l'article Journées de lecture, qui devait paraître dans Le Figaro du mercredi 20 mars 1907. Voir, au sujet des coupures de cet article, la lettre que Proust adresse à Mme de Noailles au moment où il vient de le lire dans Le Figaro, lettre 60; cf. la note 2 de la lettre 55.
3. Sic.
http://reynaldo-hahn.net/lettres/07_0...
http://www.publie.net/fr/ebook/978281...
http://books.google.com/books/about/L...
http://www.sudoc.abes.fr/xslt//DB=2.1...
I re-listened to Lecture 23 (Bill's Carter's On-line Course: http://www.proust-ink.com/courseinfo/ ) He discusses the death of Alfred, shares how the automobile picture of Odilon Albaret and Alfred Agostinelli was originally obtained, and MOST importantly how the letters of both Alfred and Marcel found their way into the novel!
Naturally, Bill also provides...
"The letter that Proust wrote to Alfred Agostinelli on the day that the young aviator drowned when his plane crashed into the sea:"
For those who are thinking about reading it novel again, you will appreciate it even more by having a guru (who points out Alfred's cheeks)!
Been thinking about the Duchesse' heartless remarks anent Swann, when Gilberte comes to dinner. "I remember your father quite well," she says formally. And Proust adds: of course she remembered him, she saw him every day for twenty-five years. Why this volte-face? I think Proust is trying to point out that ALL types of love (and there are those of us who think friendship trumps romantic love) are doomed. Any ideas?
Eugene wrote: "Autobiographical yes, in fact the entire writing/publishing/reading passage is not-fiction or closely based on Proust's reality, but recall a similar turn i..."Yes. I think I underlined the above passage because I didn't recall the Narrator telling us about his ailing health before and how it kept him away from his friends and his former social life... Of course I was reading Céleste's book at the same time and I could picture Proust writing these lines. Narrator and Author literally blended together in my mind.
Marcelita wrote: "Proust letter to Reynaldo Hahn:Nuit de lundi à mardi [18 à 19 mars 1907] 1
Ounl/rch/ni/buls
Je viens de lire mes épreuves. On a coupé tout le long passage pour lequel l'article était fait, la s..."
This is hilarious. I love the unique pet names Proust and Reynaldo used. So affectionate and creative. :)
This letter makes me want to read the one Proust wrote to Anna de Noailles where he must have complained extensively about the cut of his article... yum
Elizabeth wrote: "Been thinking about the Duchesse' heartless remarks anent Swann, when Gilberte comes to dinner. "I remember your father quite well," she says formally. And Proust adds: of course she remembered h..."Hi Elizabeth, I think this continues in next week (ie this week!)'s section. I started discussing it. La Duchesse can be cold! She does enjoy her power games...
Thinking about Mme. la Duchesse even more...and why Proust makes her act in that way; I originally said he was trying to point out that even the love of friendship dies...but now I think that love is all linked in somehow to Time; and those who aren't a part of Time cannot love. Or something. Rather confused here.
Elizabeth wrote: "Thinking about Mme. la Duchesse even more...and why Proust makes her act in that way; I originally said he was trying to point out that even the love of friendship dies...but now I think that love ..."Yes, Elizabeth, he is beginning to explore the deeper levels of the effect of Time from what we have seen so far in the novel.
Philida: "Proust can be Jane Austen on steroids." Love it! Agree totally.
Phillida wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "Thinking about Mme. la Duchesse even more...and why Proust makes her act in that way; I originally said he was trying to point out that even the love of friendship dies...but now ..."LOL.. I also, like Elizabeth, like your image...
Book Portrait wrote: "I was wondering what "da capo" means. Apparently it's a music term? The image is beautiful."Souvent c'était tout simplement pendant mon sommeil que, par ces «reprises», ces «da capo» du rêve qui ..."
Yes, "Da capo" or "D.C." as found in a score means that when one reaches the end of a section and encounters this indication one has to start again from the beginning, "from the head".
Fionnuala wrote: "We just stood outside the Hausmann building and tried to imagine it!Re the Tolstoy novella about jealousy, Book Portrait, I'm not recommending it - it was the music that inspired it which better ..."
I really could not stand this Tolstoy novella.
Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Another fascinating section on the identity of the author when he becomes also his own reader......je ne peux pas croire que chaque personnage en ouvrant les yeux ne verra pas di..."
Yes, this is the first instance so far of a concept which the postmoderns developed further.
Now I want to reread again La Jalousie, which I read years ago.
I also find it somewhat "baroque" in the way Proust presents this idea. Being his own reader he is playing with the concept of mirrors, a very rich field explored magnificently by the Baroque artists.
Kalliope: give Kreutzer another chance. 1) it's an amazing portrait of an unhappy marriage and 2) Tolstoy's wisdom is worth his weird views on sex (even within marriage, his hero says, it is Wrong; after it was published, he and Sonja were at a party where it came up, and she said that no man who had fathered 13 children had the right to have such a view! They left in separate carriages).But what I mean to say: there's a sentence in it about how his wife was constantly tormenting herself (and others) with fears for her children. They might get sick and die, they were sick and could die...etc. This was the era, of course, of the "childhood diseases." And the hero says "this was because she was neither fully animal nor fully human. If she were fully animal, she could have enjoyed her children for the moment, unconcerned about the future. If she were fully human, she would have trusted God's will."
Heavy stuff.
Amusing sidenote. I asked my husband for a CD of the sonata; he doesn't like the Russians; and he and the clerk at Borders spent a long time looking for "The Kroitzer Sonata." Until one of them figured it out. And: it is very sexy and passionate.
Elizabeth wrote: "Kalliope: give Kreutzer another chance. 1) it's an amazing portrait of an unhappy marriage and 2) Tolstoy's wisdom is worth his weird views on sex (even within marriage, his hero says, it is Wron..."Thank you Elizabeth. Yes, I should give it another go. Both you and Fio have convinced me.
GR is certainly changing the way I read and react to books...
Elizabeth wrote: "Amusing sidenote. I asked my husband for a CD of the sonata; he doesn't like the Russians; and he and the clerk at Borders spent a long time looking for "The Kroitzer Sonata." Until one of them figured it out. And: it is very sexy and passionate. .."Yes, Elizabeth, it is an amazing piece of music. I love it! So grateful to Tolstoy's novella for leading me to it.
Kall, perhaps the novella might be worth a second glance..
Fionnuala wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "Amusing sidenote. I asked my husband for a CD of the sonata; he doesn't like the Russians; and he and the clerk at Borders spent a long time looking for "The Kroitzer Sonata." Unt..."Yes, at some point I shall tackle it and see if I can find a closer connection to the sonata than when I first read it... may be there is a "petite phrase" which holds the key to everything.
It's fascinating to see how the reader experiences the exact kind of dislocation, of having to reconcile preconceived ideas of a person with who that person turns out to be, thus not just the theory of how we build pictures and concepts in our mind and then have to revise them, but the practice too. The first time we see the young blonde woman she is portrayed as a cocotte, she interests the narrator as a possible aventure, but then look who it turns out to be!
·Karen· wrote: "It's fascinating to see how the reader experiences the exact kind of dislocation, of having to reconcile preconceived ideas of a person with who that person turns out to be, thus not just the theor..."And aren't we always brought up short when Proust inserts such plot surprises in this text which depends so little on plot?
The Year of Reading Proust
Books mentioned in this topic
La Jalousie (other topics)The Nature of Things (other topics)
The Kreutzer Sonata (other topics)
Proust Between Two Centuries (other topics)
Monsieur Proust (other topics)
More...
Il n'y a pas une idée qui ne porte en elle sa réfutation possible, un mot, le mot contraire.
Being in NYC yesterday and in the mobile Gr app on my iP, I wanted a another quote but the the copyable Proust webpage wouldn't open so I found this in Wikiquotes. I thought I'd missed it and was going back today to see its context but maybe its coming...
My discipline is to keep up with the scheduled reading, skim the comments and post at least one comment a day, whether I feel like it or not ;-)