The Year of Reading Proust discussion
This topic is about
The Captive / The Fugitive
The Captive, vol. 5
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Through Sunday, 8 Sept.: The Captive
Ce Ce wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "I soon got the feeling that the Narrator has made himself Prisoner..."I just quickly read through this section one more time today...Yes, truly a prison of his own making.
"..stating women are intellectually inferior...."
Yes, but then he turns and praises Jupien's niece, "...this girl who was a thousand times cleverer than (Morel)..." and points to the Duchesse's ability "to hold her own against Jupiter Tonans and also to put 'intelligence' above the Dreyfus case."
With Proust, there is always another facet, with some of his most profound beliefs couched in humor or belittled by a minor character.
Marcelita wrote: "Yes, but then he turns and praises Jupien's niece, "...this girl who was a thousand times cleverer than (Morel)..." and points to the Duchesse's ability "to hold her own against Jupiter Tonans and also to put 'intelligence' above the Dreyfus case."With Proust, there is always another facet, with some of his most profound beliefs couched in humor or belittled by a minor character. "
Thank you for that reminder, Marcelita. I confess the Narrator can exasperate me when he's in the throes of obsessive, jealous, possessive infatuation.
And yet with this sad prison...this new tone and tenor of looking inward I simultaneously felt a mournful sadness.
The humor was not as easy to find.
Before we come back to Jupien's shop, the author would like to say how grieved he would be if the reader were to be offended by the portrayal of such weird characters. ML p. 52Don't grieve. I am not offended but maybe a little embarrassed as I much prefer the Narrator portraying his thoughts (as depressing as some think them to be) as in his *meditation on solitude* or in his description of *Albertine sleeping* rather being made complicit by an omniscience that I do not wish to be privy to or find witty at all. I'm talking about the vulgarities of Morel here, the viciousness of Cottard and others of "the little clan" on the train in S & G, etc. but alas, to wade through this knowingness, this omniscience and to arrive back at the personal confessions of the Narrator, it's well worth it.
Saturday's Fashion PagesFortuny...
"Of all the outdoor and indoor gowns that Mme de Guermantes wore, those which seemed most to respond to a definite intention, to be endowed with a special significance, were the garments made by Fortuny from old Venetian models. Is it their historical character, or is it rather the fact that each one of them is unique, that gives them so special a significance..." MP p. 34
"Fortuny painted his wife Henriette Negrin adjusting the silk cords and Murano beads in her own gown. She named the Delphos and is said to have played a major role in creating it. Note the absence of foundation garments." Museo del Traje, Madrid
http://jdavidsen.wordpress.com/tag/de...
1907 autochrome of Alfred Stieglitz's sister, Selma Schubart, in a Fortuny–and a cardigan. Alfred Stieglitz Collection.
http://jdavidsen.wordpress.com/tag/de...
Ce Ce, this may help lighten your spirit.
"Every woman should be issued a Fortuny gown along with her Medicare card."
For this Delphos, you will need to visit this website...and scroll down:
http://jdavidsen.wordpress.com/tag/de...
A favorite video, especially how the dress is "un-twisted" from the box @4:02.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQd2Az3sFA8
Oct 16, 2007 - Uploaded by OtisCollege
"Presentation by founding Otis Fashion Chair Rosemary Brantley on the fashions of Mariano Fortuny."
Ce Ce wrote: ".I just found this quote from Celeste Albaret and I saw the veil between author and narrator slipping. "Now I realize M. Proust's whole object, his whole great sacrifice for his work, was to set himself outside time in order to rediscover it. When there is no more time, there is silence. He needed that silence in order to hear only the voices he wanted to hear, the voices that are in his books. I didn't think about that at the time. But now when I'm alone at night and can't sleep, I seem to see him as he surely must have been in his room after I had left him -- alone too, but in his own night, working at his notebooks when, outside, the sun had long been up." Monsieur Proust, Celeste Albaret ."
That's a very eloquent and astute summary of Proust's method by Celeste Albaret, Ce Ce. I will read her book soon. I haven't been keeping up with the week's reading as I'm away from my home and away from my reading time and space and missing both but I've glanced through the comments here and I suspect I might need Celeste's insights to help me make it through to the end of the year, now that the mood has changed as the comments this week seem to indicate. Hmmm.
Saturday's Fashion PagesCallot...Doucet...Paquin
"...I must warn you that if you have things from Callot's or Doucet's or Pacquin's copied by some small dressmaker, the result is never the same." MP p. 47. (Oriane, the Duchesse de Guermantes to the narrator)
Callot Soeurs 1907
http://www.lesartsdecoratifs.fr/?id_a...
Jacques Doucet, Visiting Dress 1903
http://www.metmuseum.org/Collections/...
Mme. Jeanne Paquin, Afternoon Dress 1909
http://www.metmuseum.org/collections/...
Saturday Fashion Pages
Lady in ermine, c.1910 (Collection Khun)
Echoes of a cold spring and Mme. Swann.
Paris 1914
Ce Ce wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "As I have been following Proust's aesthetics, in these threads and in my reviews, I found this passage fascinating:L'art extrait du réel le plus familier existe en effet et son d..."
CeCe, it is somewhat later from the episode with Charlus and M. de Vaugoubert. It is in the paragraph in which the "author" warns the reader not to get upset by such scenes depicted. This paragraph is incidentally the first time the "author" is mentioned. We have encountered the "reader" being mentioned a couple of times, but not the "author".
The Google translate gives this gibberish, but it may help you to locate the section.
The real art extract the most familiar are indeed and its domain is perhaps the greatest. But it is no less true that interest, sometimes the beauty can arise from actions arising from a form of so far from what we feel mind, what we believe, that we can not even get to understand them, they spread out before us like a show without cause.
Funny the choice of the name of Morel... Had he given him a Prenom starting with A such as André, Armand, or Anatole... etc.. would have made a good combination.. A.Morel.
Marcelita wrote: "Saturday's Fashion PagesFortuny...
"Of all the outdoor and indoor gowns that Mme de Guermantes wore, those which seemed most to respond to a definite intention, to be endowed with a special signi..."
Marcelita, the painting with Stieglitz's sister is wonderful.. and to me it brings memories since one of my Professors in the US was a nephew of Stieglitz (Alffie, as the family called him)...
Have you seen the painting with Mariano Fortuny Madrazo, as a child, as painted by the father?.. I thought you would enjoy that one.
In the preface of the G-F edition to this volume Jean Milly writes about Fortuny becoming a "clef de voûte" or keystone to this volume. The fact that he is so strongly associated with Venice, city which for the Narrator embodies freedom and desire and art, becomes a "leitmotiv" in this volume.I do not want to go a great deal into this now, because it is a bit of a spoiler. Suffice to say that it is not just a decorative element, but has a narrative function too.
I am using the same edition as Fionnuala, but I have understood that she had to leave home without her copy.
When I read Carter's bio, I had difficulty in understanding the relationship that Proust had with Agostinelli and his wife The section on Charlus and Morel and Jupien's niece, clarifies this. The way Charlus calculates the advantages for him if and when Morel marries the young woman, are very intriguing, or as we would say "intrigantes" (scheming).
My edition draws attention to another section that needed editing.The narrator says that the evenings in which he waited for Albertine and did not go to Mme de Guermantes he would entertain himself with either an "album d'Elstir, un livre de Bergotte".
But in the following paragraph he discusses the senses of sight and hearing... Je les jetais dans la phrase du musician ou l'image du peintre...
He probably would had changed Bergotte's book for Vinteuil's score...
So far, the Narrator has sometimes said that later on or "plus yard" we will hear the full story or the explanation to something that he has begun telling us.In this section we get something different... Not necessarily will we learn the full story because he himself never did.
It is related to the true relationship between Albertine and Andrée.
Mais on verra tout cela plus tard, tout cela dont je n'ai jamais su si c'était vrai.
Thank you Marcelita! I've been looking forward to our Saturday Fashion Pages this week, with all that talk of how Albertine should dress. It reminded me of nothing so much as the celebrity pages in current magazines, where gullible females are persuaded that they HAVE to have the bag that Posh Becks is carrying, or the shoes that Kate wears or whatever. Rather like the Guermantes, whose name is left to them although the property has all been swept away, so their 'celebrity' or rank or privilege is somewhat hollow by now, merely a name but no real political or economic power to go with it, so that all that is left to them is to be the arbiters of fashion.
Fionnuala wrote: "That's a very eloquent and astute summary of Proust's method by Celeste Albaret, Ce Ce. I will read her book soon."Yes, with this past week's reading Celeste's book went to the top of my TBR list...but not until the new year. I want to experience whatever may come with the journey of the last volumes.
A confessionAlbertine...had divined the existence in me of an inquisitorial sentiment that desires to know, yet suffers by the knowing, and seeks to learn still more. ML p. 67
Ce Ce wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Yes, with this past week's reading Celeste's book went to the ..."
I don't have Céleste's book yet but certainly plan to read it. But as you CeCe, I think I will wait until 2014. I have about 5-6 more books on Proust to be read then.
It will be interesting to compare her views with those of Gautier-Vignal. They both coincided with Proust roughly the same years and both wrote their books later on, in the 70s.
Eugene wrote: "Before we come back to Jupien's shop, the author would like to say how grieved he would be if the reader were to be offended by the portrayal of such weird characters. ML p. 52Don't grieve. I am ..."
I thought about your post Eugene, in fact I had to sleep on it.
We are taking this long journey with the Narrator. We know him. We know his sparkling joyful tendencies. His intelligence. His sociability. His curiosity. His painterly vision. His frail health. His struggles. His failings. His sometimes cruelty to those he loves most (his grandmother & Francoise come to mind). His manipulations...remember Robert and the Narrator's maneuvering to be introduced to the Duchesse? His mother. His transgressions...he has moved Albertine into his parents' home in their absence. His favorite places. His disappointments and embarrassments. His most treasured memories.
We have taken a long intimate journey with the Narrator. At times I grow frustrated with him...as I would a person in my life I hold dear. His less admirable confessions I am willing to 'hear' because I now know him intimately...and have embraced the Narrator with affection...by the end of these 7 volumes I may find that I have grown to love him.
When I think of life and people I hold dear the characteristics I would miss most with the loss of them are some of the things that can drive me mad when I am assured of their presence today and tomorrow.
We have not traveled this intimate journey with Cottard or Morel. If we knew them so fully and deeply...would we have sympathy, empathy or even affection, for them?
Kalliope wrote: "Funny the choice of the name of Morel... Had he given him a Prenom starting with A such as Armand, or Anatole... etc.. would have made a good combination.. A.Morel."
LOL Kalliope! In English Morel can also be a delectable, if weird, squiggly (ugly if you aren't familiar with its delectable qualities) mushroom or fungus. It is what I thought of when I first read his name. Is it a Morel mushroom in French as well?
They grow wild in my yard. Last year, while I was away, a neighbor was doing me the "favor" of trying to kill them. When I returned there were a few left so I made a Morel mushroom souffle and had her over for dinner. She was astonished this is what she had been killing rather than savoring!
Which brings me full circle to Cottard, or Morel.
There's even a bit of Fortuny about the mushroom. ;-)
Ce Ce wrote: "LOL Kalliop..."
CeCe, I did not know about the mushrooms. I just checked and in French they are called "Morilles".
Fortuny...there are no words. Pure unadulterated magic. Nice appetizer Kalliope: Suffice to say that it is not just a decorative element, but has a narrative function too.
The Fortuny painting of the children is lovely...I keep returning to it. AND clicked on the exhibition site so I could see the detail.
The dresses. Oh, the dresses. And then to have them laced with Venetian glass beads? Thank you Marcelita.
CeCe, your Morels reminded me I wanted to look up the flowers "seringas", the ones with the strong scent that bothers both Andrée and Albertine...They are beautiful
It seems they are also called the "jasmine of the poets" and their French name "searing" comes from the ancient custom of being able to make syringes out of their stems.
Kalliope wrote: "Ce Ce wrote: "LOL Kalliop..."
CeCe, I did not know about the mushrooms. I just checked and in French they are called "Morilles"."
Ah well, this is when translation evokes connections that could not be known, or at least intended, by the author.
Kalliope wrote: "I don't have Céleste's book yet but certainly plan to read it. But as you CeCe, I think I will ..."So are we going to make 2014 the year of reading the secondary literature on Proust?
Eugene wrote: "It's no secret http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=affaMp... that Proust teaches me how to write. What I'm learning is to be looser, to Stop Making Sense as the Talking Heads sang, to enjoy myself in ..."LOL, Eugene...I just watched the video...I had forgotten Jefferson Airplane's "It's No Secret"...it was transportive!
Kalliope wrote: "The first part sounds a mixture between a concession and an interest in the art of the kind seen in Dutch 17thC painting. But the second part is the one that really interests him and that he has been pursuing so far in his writing."In English: "Art extracted from the most familiar reality does indeed exist and its domain is perhaps the largest of any. But it is none the less true that considerable interest, not to say beauty, may be found in actions inspired by a cast of mind so remote from anything we feel, from anything we believe, that they remain incomprehensible to us, displaying themselves before our eyes like a spectacle without rhyme or reason." ML Kindle 38006-10
It seems more evidence of that slippage of the veil...the great Oz putting his foot out from behind the curtain. A glimpse of the author. He acknowledges in the lines before this quote that we may find the characters "weird" at times (Eugene quote it in message 54)...and in this quote reminds us of the interest and beauty of exploring a mind alien to us. I agree Kalliope, it does seem a revelation of Proust's purpose in writing ISOLT.
As I look toward beginning next week's section I find that one description of Albertine has stayed with me."Physically, too, she had changed. Her blue almond-shaped eyes - now even more elongated - had altered in appearance; they were indeed of the same color, but seemed to have passed into a liquid state. So much so that, when she closed them, it was as though a pair of curtains had been drawn to shut out a view of the sea."
In those few sentences I was transported back to the Narrator's first summer in Balbec. I recalled the windows of the cabinets in his room that reflected the sea...now the windows/eyes of Albertine. And instead of those long ago days of Francoise pinning the drapes to darken the room; Albertine shutters the view of the sea, and her soul, when she closes her eyes.
Full circle to the 'sleeping Albertine'
Kalliope wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Saturday's Fashion PagesFortuny...
"Have you seen the painting with Mariano Fortuny Madrazo, as a child, as painted by the father?.. I thought you would enjoy that one. ."
Oh, yes! So charming, yet bittersweet. Fortuny was only three years old, when his father died in 1874.
"The Painter's Children in the Japanese Salon"
By: Mariano Fortuny y Marsal
http://www.museodelprado.es/coleccion...
Kalliope wrote: "My edition draws attention to another section that needed editing.The narrator says that the evenings in which he waited for Albertine and did not go to Mme de Guermantes he would entertain himself...
He probably would had changed Bergotte's book for Vinteuil's score... ."
I agree. Earlier, we were awash with visual images, along with Elstir's paintings and descriptions, now "sounds" seem to dominate...with Morel's violin in the background.
Ce Ce wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Funny the choice of the name of Morel... Had he given him a Prenom starting with A such as Armand, or Anatole... etc.. would have made a good combination.. A.Morel."
They grow wild in my yard. ... When I returned there were a few left so I made a Morel mushroom souffle and had her over for dinner. She was astonished this is what she had been killing rather than savoring! ..."
A story...in the Lounge.
Ce Ce, I hope you slept well. One of Proust's acknowledged greatnesses in ISOLT is the change of narrational voice, consequently I pay attention to who is telling the story.
By Proust's admission in 2 letters, quoted in these comments, this is an 'uneven' text. The first letter was in 1913 and made it clear that it was intentional, the latter in 1922, just before he died, said that because of his frailties he couldn't finish the work: the unevenness was unintentional.
No matter to this reader. If you notice in my post before last the words "omniscience" & "knowingness", what I'm talking about is 3rd person narration prevalent in Charlus & Morel visiting Jupien's in this week's reading and the primary narrational voice of the train ride (S&G) and in other instances in the novel which is, for me, less preferable to the 1st person of the Narrator.
Why? Proust seems to me to be telling me in 3rd person where he's showing me in 1st person; I prefer to be involved in the telling of the story as I am in 1st person, where I seem to be distanced in 3rd person. 3rd person seems to be a short cut. It is no criticism of Proust; it is simply a statement of my reading likes and dislikes. However, differences of narrational voice make music; let there be music...
But 'Art from the everyday...' show me Marcel, don't tell me...was he too frail to show us, we'll never know.
BTW, your comments here are appreciated because knowledgeable, thank you.
Thank you, Eugene.LOL...I did sleep well.
First, I have to confess I have become conscious of nuances of narration in ISOLT through your posts. That's the beauty of reading all 7 volumes with this group. We each bring our unique knowledge, perception and instinct.
Some of you are far more analytical than I am...and through your analysis I have learned so much. I tend to immerse myself and ride whatever waves are sent my way...visually witnessing the theater unfold in my mind's eye. Any analysis comes after the experience.
I once produced conceptual art. Always striving to show...not to tell. And working to be at ease once it was complete and released in the world that others would make it their own.
We have all been in the process of relishing the ISOLT that was released (if not entirely complete)...and making it our own. Ferreting out the voice that speaks to each of us...the varied nuance as we all bring ourselves to this reading has been wondrous to behold.
We are so early in this volume...so I do not yet know what will unfold...but I am appreciating the slight disintegration, the deconstruction...the glimpse of Proust's process.
Good to be back after my one volume vacation from reading the novel with this group. I read S&G last year and mostly again last month...feels good to be up to speed again.A few things. other than the common threads above, jumped out at me this week. For instance, I wonder about the link between Morel the violinist and the Narrator's inner violin, when left in solitude by Albertine.
Also, noticed the violence of some imagery: "...the sound of the bell reverberated like that of a silver knife striking a house of glass." (ML 23; a reference to his illness perhaps and the way it has made cerain sounds feel assaulting to his hearing sense); the passages about the revolutionary republicanism of Albertine - "...and embittered love for the nobility -" (ML 33); in the paragraph on Habit which leads one to "get oneself murdered in the streets"; Xerxes ordering the sea to be scourged with rods (ML 53); Morel "took to never going out without a loaded revolver" - taking the law into his own hands after being told that another played as well as him.
Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "My edition draws attention to another section that needed editing.The narrator says that the evenings in which he waited for Albertine and did not go to Mme de Guermantes he would..."
I agree, Marcelita, and I think the predominance of sounds, of all types, contributes to the feeling of enclosure. Many of these sounds are coming from outside, they are the only indications (apart from Albertine, Andrée and Françoise) of any life going on outside.
Jean Milly also draws attention to the imagery from boats and their associations with dreams. It seems he used them in "Jean Santeuil" before and are also present in his pastiche of Flaubert.
Marcelita wrote: "Have you seen the painting with Mariano Fortuny Madrazo, as a child, as painted by the father?.. I thought you would enjoy t..."Marcelita, I knew you would enjoy the painting of the designer as a little boy. It is a lovely painting too.
I think I will have to go the Museo del Traje.
Kalliope wrote: "Patricia wrote: "I wonder why the funny types came out in the two posts above."I will give you some quotes on the Fortuny later on.
The reason your response comes out in italics is because you p..."
Thanks Kall you are my lighthouse in these forums.
Kalliope wrote: "My G-F edition is under the supervisio of Milly. Not all volumes have his foot notes and comments, but this one does.In a footnote he says that according to a thesis by a couple of Japanese scho..."
I am sure Proust should have never put his actual name in that paragraph it is dissonant.
Ce Ce wrote: ""...late every night , before leaving me, she [Albertine] used to slide her tongue between my lips like a portion of daily bread, a nourishing food that had the almost sacred character of all flesh..."of course I´m a pagan though born and baptized and first-communionized roman catholic and love the new Potato from my country,but cross my heart i had other feelings with the subject of albertine´s tongue.
i think Al.is your typical Freudian histeric,like we say she loves to heat the water ...but someone else drinks the *mate* (translation :like a tea).
Marcelita wrote: "Saturday's Fashion PagesFortuny...
"Of all the outdoor and indoor gowns that Mme de Guermantes wore, those which seemed most to respond to a definite intention, to be endowed with a special signi..."
Thanks Marcelita! These garments are beautiful! and yes, I´d so would love to have a Fortuny gown I´ll give up my mediacare card for it.
Marcelita wrote: "Saturday's Fashion PagesFortuny...
"Of all the outdoor and indoor gowns that Mme de Guermantes wore, those which seemed most to respond to a definite intention, to be endowed with a special signi..."
I am almost sure Fortuny is an old Sephardy surname.
Kalliope wrote: "Funny the choice of the name of Morel... Had he given him a Prenom starting with A such as André, Armand, or Anatole... etc.. would have made a good combination.. A.Morel."
Good point! what´s in a name...?
·Karen· wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "I don't have Céleste's book yet but certainly plan to read it. But as you CeCe, I think I will ..."So are we going to make 2014 the year of reading the secondary literature on P..."
Good idea!
Kalliope wrote: ".The section on Charlus and Morel and Jupien's niece, clarifies this. The way Charlus calculates the advantages for him if and when Morel marries the young woman, are very intriguing, or as we would say "intrigantes" (scheming). "Nice play on words, Kalliope! Charlus is indeed both intriguing and a skilled intrigant.
I've finished this week's reading reading a little too late to join in the discussion. I enjoyed the change of atmosphere in this volume, especially as I'd just read Gautier-Vignal's Proust connu et inconnu which describes very well how Marcel lived, more or less retired from society, from 1914 onwards. So I was ready for this book.
Kalliope wrote: "My G-F edition is under the supervisio of Milly. Not all volumes have his foot notes and comments, but this one does.In a footnote he says that according to a thesis by a couple of Japanese scholars, the mention of the name Marcel, would have probably been edited out by Proust had he been able to."
"...edited out..."
I was watching Bill Carter's Lecture 19 (Online Course via www.proust-ink.com). He states:
"The following passage is where Proust stopping making corrections, shortly before his death on November 18th, 1922.
'I chose, in gazing at her, the aspect of her face which one never saw and which was so beautiful. It is I suppose comprehensible that the letters we receive from a person should be more or less similar and combine to trace an image of the writer sufficiently different from the person we know to constitute a different personality.'" MP p. 88
The name passage is on page 91:
"'My—' or 'My darling—' followed by my Christian name, which, if we give the narrator the same name as the author of this book, would be 'My Marcel,' or 'My darling Marcel.'" MP p. 91
@MarcelitaYou make reference to the Proust/Carter online course, perhaps you could tell us more about its cost, where one signs up, etc. or provide a new link as that one ends in a 404. Thanks.
Eugene wrote: "@MarcelitaYou make reference to the Proust/Carter online course, perhaps you could tell us more about its cost, where one signs up, etc. or provide a new link as that one ends in a 404. Thanks."
Eugene,
Yes, there are some 404 links, due to the change over to the new website.
Here is the information page.
http://www.proust-ink.com/course/inde...
$150.00 for the rest of your life.
The 30 lectures are extremely organized, making it effortless to go back and review. In addition to all the goodies in the "filing cabinets."
The most wonderful events are the webcams. Subscribers can send in questions ahead of time, or during the live hour.
Just think...you can ask Bill Carter anything! Naturally, I have sent in my fare share. ;)
All the webcams, with the questions asked, are archived, so you can go back and see if someone else had asked your question previously.
Some of Bill's answers remind me of free-form jazz. You think you know where he is guiding you, but then he takes off in a completely unexpected direction! That is why, the questions are really just the opening cords.
@Marcelita404 with the new link too...
I have tried to stay with the words of the novel and trust the Narrator's voice as his own...but with the beginning of The Captive I agree with Fionnuala when she says "It's as if Proust is gliding between his own present and his Narrator's past."
I just found this quote from Celeste Albaret and I saw the veil between author and narrator slipping.
"Now I realize M. Proust's whole object, his whole great sacrifice for his work, was to set himself outside time in order to rediscover it. When there is no more time, there is silence. He needed that silence in order to hear only the voices he wanted to hear, the voices that are in his books. I didn't think about that at the time. But now when I'm alone at night and can't sleep, I seem to see him as he surely must have been in his room after I had left him -- alone too, but in his own night, working at his notebooks when, outside, the sun had long been up." Monsieur Proust, Celeste Albaret