The Year of Reading Proust discussion
This topic is about
The Captive / The Fugitive
The Captive, vol. 5
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Through Sunday, 6 Oct.: The Captive
Kalliope wrote: "I am not sure, but wasn't there a garçon from the village who got a bit close to Gilberte?.. I may be making this up now.. Soon I will have to engage in a Recherche de la recherche..."I only remember a youth whom the Narrator saw out walking with Gilberte in Paris but he would not have been a 'cocher', I think.
We'll just have to go back to the beginning...
Fionnuala wrote: "So interesting about the Rothschild soirée, Kall. Now that I've got my GF edition finally, I need to go back and read all the footnotes.I agree that the Charlus episode is like a play but the sta..."
I should send you the pages with the weekly breaks.. not easy to find them...
Yes, the Charlus execution scene is a complex one...but it may have been more worked out than we think because it is a repeated episode from earlier writings and it is not the first time in this work that the Narrator seems to have been a fly on the wall and have witnessed scenes that in theory he did not..!!!
I have to add this about Chopin. Listening to his music, I love it. But as a pianist I would be fighting my way through a Nocturne, thinking "any composer who writes a work with five flats should be shot." It was just too hard for me.
Fionnuala: I know who it was the Narrator saw walking with Gilberte...but it is a spoiler of sorts...anyway, it wasn't Théodore.
Elizabeth wrote: "Fionnuala: I know who it was the Narrator saw walking with Gilberte...but it is a spoiler of sorts...anyway, it wasn't Théodore."Thank you.. at least now I don't think I'm going mad and imagining things...
Elizabeth wrote: "I have to add this about Chopin. Listening to his music, I love it. But as a pianist I would be fighting my way through a Nocturne, thinking "any composer who writes a work with five flats should..."LOL.. yes...
Kalliope wrote: "it is not the first time in this work that the Narrator seems to have been a fly on the wall and have witnessed scenes that in theory he did not..!!!"Oh, yes, we aught to be used to his omniscience at this stage. But sometimes he feels the need to provide an alibi as in the reported speech from Ski.
I wonder who Ski is based on, some Polish painter perhaps whose name ends in ski, Chelmonski or Malczeweski?
I remained for a moment alone upon the pavement. To be sure, these luminous rays which I could see from below and which to anyone else would have seemed merely superficial, I endowed with the utmost consistency, plenitude, solidity, in view of all the significance that I placed behind them, in a treasure unsuspected by the rest of the world which I had concealed there and from which those horizontal rays emanated, a treasure if you like, but a treasure in exchange for which I had forfeited my freedom, my solitude, my thought. Moncrieff
In the Overture...the foundation stones are laid: "...'Come in and stop your husband drinking brandy,' in my cowardice I became at once a man, and did what all we grown men do when face to face with suffering and injustice: I preferred not to see them; I ran up to the top of the house to cry by myself..." MP
Eugene wrote: "..to be sure, these luminous rays which I could see from below....in a treasure...from which those horizontal rays emanated"Certes, ces lumineuses rayures que j'apercevais d'en bas et qui à un autre eussent semblé toutes superficielles, je leur donnais une consistance, une plénitude, une solidité extrêmes, à cause de tout la signification que je mettais derrière elles, en un trésor insoupçonné des autres que j'avais caché là et dont émanaient ces rayons horizontaux, trésor si l'on veut, mais trésor en échange duquel j'avais aliéné la liberté, la solitude, la pensée.
The term trésor in French is often used to describe an elaborately decorated ecclesiastic receptacle in which relics are stored. This passage reminded me of this trésor from the Sainte Chapelle:
Isn't Charlus a superbly drawn character? He touches every emotional chord: we sneer at his arrogance, we laugh at his ridicule and weep at how pathetic he can be.
@Marcelita I thought you for one would be up at Columbia at the colloque like the Narrator is never without Albertine, you are never without Proust.
Elizabeth wrote: "Kalliope, Fionnuala: Yes, it is the same Théodore . Remember, when Tante Leonie had seen a person (or a dog!) she didn't know, she would call Franҫoise to go to Camus' grocery and ask Théodore b..."Elizabeth, I had not seen this message of yours, only the later one, #55. So, the "cocher" brother to the femme de chambre de Mme Putbus, is this Théodore then?....
I am relieved that my memory then has not played me a trick..
Thank you.
Fionnuala wrote: "Eugene wrote: "..to be sure, these luminous rays which I could see from below....in a treasure...from which those horizontal rays emanated"Certes, ces lumineuses rayures que j'apercevais d'en bas..."
Nice Trésor, Fionnuala..
Jocelyne wrote: "Isn't Charlus a superbly drawn character? He touches every emotional chord: we sneer at his arrogance, we laugh at his ridicule and weep at how pathetic he can be."Yes, I agree Jocelyne. Charlus is an extraordinary personality and so well drawn... so complex and surprising even the Narrator...
Kalliope wrote: "..Elizabeth, I had not seen this message of yours, only the later one, #55. So, the "cocher" brother to the femme de chambre de Mme Putbus, is this Théodore then?...."Me neither. Glad the mystery is solved.
Since we are talking of names, I am still puzzled by the Narrator's reluctance to use his first name. I forgot where exactly in the text it was, but when he reports Albertine addressing him as "My dear Marcel," and then the second time, he says "My dear, followed by my Christian name". This just seemed odd to me, since at that time, we knew the Narrator's name.
I know...he is very ambivalent about how autobiographical his novel is...possibly because of all the people pestering him thusly: "Was that ME? Was that me you were writing about?" The only way to avoid this harassment, obviously, was to insist it was NOT autobiographical, but sometimes he slips..that's my theory, anyway.
Elizabeth wrote: "I know...he is very ambivalent about how autobiographical his novel is...possibly because of all the people pestering him thusly: "Was that ME? Was that me you were writing about?" The only way to..."I do feel it's significant that he drops the name Marcel only into sentences containing endearments as if it was some private message to himself.
But why do you think he did not use it a second time but went through the trouble of writing "My dear, followed by my Christian name"? Isn't that strange? Since he had just used Marcel, it seemed strange to me that he did not repeat it. I don't understand his rationale.
Jocelyne wrote: "But why do you think he did not use it a second time but went through the trouble of writing "My dear, followed by my Christian name"? Isn't that strange? Since he had just used Marcel, it seemed s..."Earlier on it was posted that Proust had been editing out the mentioning of his name and some of the scholars think that his intention was to edit it out completely.
That would make sense, also given the ambivalence he felt about it, as Elizabeth mentioned.Speaking of names, I was just listening to a link to Arlette Chabot that Marcelita had posted in conjunction with the FFerrand podcast. Chabot interviews the Enthovens (father and son,) one of whom calls himself a Marcelien and the other one a Proustien to separate the biographer from the scholar of La Recherche itself. They also mentioned that Françoise Sagan, une grande proustienne, had taken her name from the novel, a novel which she "prescribed" as a cure for disappointment in love or heartbreaks.
http://www.europe1.fr/MediaCenter/Emi...
Jocelyne wrote: "It is hard to believe we are already coming to the end of The Captive. I don't think it is too early to start wondering who The Fugitive in the upcoming volume is. I propose a contest. -An unknown Goodreads reader from another group ... to grab our favorite posts and make a run for it ( posts including links to expensive, very expensive Fortuny gowns.)..."
That's my vote!
Now, time for the Saturday Fashion Pages...
Charlus on the Queen of Naples' fan,
"In fact she left it here,' said Mme Verdurin, momentarily ... 'It is all the more touching for being so hideous; the little violet is incredible!'" MP
Remember, in the language of flowers, the violet signifies "Modesty or Faithfulness."
A fan of carnations and violets.
http://www.philamuseum.org/collection...
Also remember that Charlus is the only fan painter in the novel.
"...I was amazed to learn that it was he (Charlus) who had painted the huge fan decorated with black and yellow irises which the Duchess was at this moment unfurling." MP (The Guermantes Way)
Last week, I posted an image of a "black" and yellow iris, which had the name, "Bumblebee Deelite."
Madame Lamaire was known for painting fans, especially as gifts for charity.
"Her exquisitely painted fans are among the greatest treasures offered for sale at charity-bazaars, and her graceful designs, sometimes pencil-drawings, sometimes in sepia or India-ink, sometimes in colour, representing either figures or flowers..."
http://sdrc.lib.uiowa.edu/lucile/publ...
http://lapluiequipasse.hautetfort.com... (Sent to me by Kalliope.)
For a smile,
The Letter Reads...
Dear Sir and Friend,
You will find me rather insufferable but I would ask you to come only to-morrow Tuesday to fetch your fan at whatever time is convenient to you, for example I shall be home all day between 2 and 5 o'clock. I won't leave you the fan anyore but it is longer than I thought.
Forgive and friendly wishes.
Madeleine Lemaire
http://www.artrenewal.org/pages/artwo...
Eugene wrote: "@Marcelita I thought you for one would be up at Columbia at the colloque like the Narrator is never without Albertine, you are never without Proust."
Yes, so predicable! I was there both days and spent hours watching the body language of the French presenters. The round table, with Edmund White, Antoine Compagnon, Caroline Weber, and Elizabeth Ladensen was electric. The video tape of the conference should be available in a few months, as they are designing a new website.
Elizabeth wrote: "I know...he is very ambivalent about how autobiographical his novel is...possibly because of all the people pestering him thusly: "Was that ME? Was that me you were writing about?" The only way to..."Elizabeth, this was one of the topics at the round table. As the conference is called, "Proust Reread-Proust Relu," one discusssion was based on how readers read Proust today.
Edmund White, who is so personable and witty, made the observation that after Philip Kolb's "Proust Correspondence" was published, readers learned a great deal about Proust's life and his writing process...and in one letter, Proust actually writes the word, "autobiography."
Elizabeth Ladenson, the guru of the conference, pointed out that George Painter wrote his biography strictly from letters and written interviews. Painter did not interview one person who was alive, because he believed they would just say the same thing, which appalled Ed White. After that biography, readers began reading Proust through the lens of autobiography, melding the letters and the novel.
And there are many instances where actual events, shared in letters, ended up in the novel-disguised of course.
Thus, when Antoine Compagnon gave his talk at The Morgan Library, during the exhibit of the BnF treasures, Proust's "Swann's Way" notebooks and galleys, he stressed the point that one should read Proust as "an innocent," just like the very first readers in 1913.
His first lecture, in Proust 1913, is on that very topic.
http://www.college-de-france.fr/site/...|
During a break, I told AC how much I appreciate the English voice-over on his "Proust 1913" lectures. He admitted that he had never heard the English, but was pleased that the concept was successful, as it is "very expensive."
Marcelita wrote: "Elizabeth Ladenson, the guru of the conference, pointed out that George Painter wrote his biography strictly from letters and written interviews. Painter did not interview one person who was alive, because he believed they would just say the same thing, which appalled Ed White. After that biography, readers began reading Proust through the lens of autobiography, melding the letters and the novel. ..."This same point is what was behind Louis Gautier-Vignal when he wrote his:
Proust connu et inconnu.
He does not attack Painter by name, but working out the dates when G-V wrote his book (70s) and which biographies had appeared written by a British author, it could easily be deduced. I also addressed this issue in my review of G-V's book. Painter's bio just cannot be trusted and yet it has been determinant for the image that posterity has drawn on Proust. Sad.
Kalliope wrote: "I do not have a view of Albertine except in so far as she may be inspired in Agostinelli (information extraneous to Proust's novel).. the Narrator does talk of the multiple personas in Albertine... (may try and search for the extract.. I thnk later on, when he is back at home). ..."
The part on the multiplicity of Albertine is towards the end of the section.
Hélas! Albertine était plusieurs personnes. La plus mystérieuse, la plus simple, la plus atroce se montra dans la réponse qu'elle me fit d'un air de dégoût, t dont à dire vrai je ne distinguai pas bien les mots (même les mots du commencement puisqu'elle ne tremina pas). p. 445.
Marcelita wrote: "..."Wonderful fan with violets and carnations...!!!
Thank you Marcelita.
Marcelita wrote: "Jocelyne wrote: "It is hard to believe we are already coming to the end of The Captive. I don't think it is too early to start wondering who The Fugitive in the upcoming volume is. I propose a cont..."And this letter on the forgotten fan give another weight to the scene we have read this week... !!!,,
Albertine...if--and I say if you regard Albertine as a young man, it explains a few things. Why, for instance, does he insist on introducing her to the Verdurins as his cousin? Why are they so afraid of being caught embracing on the little train? Her throat, which he describes lovingly several times, is very masculine. And most of all: in their final scenes, he does not address her as an upper-middle-class young Frenchman would a girl who was his social (if not economic) equal; he abuses her as he would a servant (e.g. Franҫoise). On the other hand, her love of beautiful clothes, etc., is wholly feminine. I think you are right, Kalliope, about the "multiplicity of personalities."
Oh, and I didn't mention: how can he get away with having her live in his apartment? Disapproval is mentioned (altho Mme Bontemps doesn't care), but in a very downplayed way. I mean, and I must stress, Albertine is of his social class. M. Bontemps is with the government; Mme Bontemps is a friend of Odette's (now a member/clinger to Le Gratin)...(or is it La gratin?) My knees hurt too much to go find my petite Larousse..I'll feel better after an hour or so in my garden, paradoxically enough.
Elizabeth wrote: "Albertine...if--and I say if you regard Albertine as a young man, it explains a few things. Why, for instance, does he insist on introducing her to the Verdurins as his cousin? Why are they so afr..."All very true, Elizabeth. If I have one reservation about La Recherche it is this one: why does the Narrator have to be heterosexual - I would have believed in him, respected him, even loved him more if he had been homosexual. Right at the beginning when I saw the names of his jeunes filles en fleurs, Gilberte, Albertine and Andrée, I was struck by the travesty of his story. Later, I was grateful that at least, in the Charlus story, we were preserved from any such distortion. At times, I've felt that Proust projects aspects of himself into Charlus's character so if he could be frank about the way Charlus led his life, why couldn't he find it in himself to be frank about his own/the Narrator's.
Le gratin - the cream of society
"The upper crust." Right. Actually, I don't think he could have found a publisher had he been honest about his hero's sexuality. What do you think?
Yes, of course, the upper crust it is, that lovely burnt topping.But he didn't find a publisher for the first volume either.
Do you think he might have started writing the entire thing from a homosexual point of view and had to revise it all, changing Gilbert to Gilberte, etc., to eventually attract a publisher? How painful for him...
Albertine: she is not a character (corroborated by many scholars over the years), she is a multifaceted excuse of varied and partial personalities to fashion (to be a reason for) the main story of jealousy's effect on love and how the Narrator overcomes it's perils to work.This is not to spoil; it is in the pages that we've read. Simply ask yourself what the Narrator wants.
Albertine is only viewed from the 1st person, the Narrator's, perspective and that is necessarily so to maintain the the unknowing (the suspicion) aspect of jealousy on love involving the reader's knowledge (limited) and making it equal to the Narrator's view of her (it, in the sense of an excuse).
We are not privy to Albertine's thoughts as we are to Charlus's, Morel's and any other character in ISOLT rendered omnisciently as omniscience expressed of/about Albertine would let the 'cat of of the bag'--the Narrator would know, we would know--there would be no suspicion, no jealousy, no suspense and a different story would enfold.
Eugene wrote: "Albertine: she is not a character (corroborated by many scholars over the years), she is a multifaceted excuse of varied and partial personalities to fashion (to be a reason for) the main story of ..."Have I got this right, Eugene: you maintain that Albertine, and the jealousy she arouses, is simply the device which Proust uses to provoke the Narrator to begin writing?
Fionnuala wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "Albertine...if--and I say if you regard Albertine as a young man, it explains a few things. Why, for instance, does he insist on introducing her to the Verdurins as his cousin? W..."Do you remember how way back when we mentioned "Albertine" being a mille-feuille? She certainly is a puzzle. I find it interesting your paying attention to the names in A l'ombre...
@Elizabeth, take good care of your knees, and by the way it is "le petit" Larousse ( because 'petit' refers to dictionnaire, which is masculine). Arrhg! French is so hard sometimes, right?
@Marcelita, I love those fans. Wouldn't mind having one of those myself.
I am reading a biography of Flaubert and in a chapter on the modernity of his style, I read about his concept of 'impersonnalité'. He wrote, "L'artiste doit être dans son oeuvre comme Dieu dans la création, invisible et tout-puissant: qu'on le sente partout, mais qu'on ne le voie pas." (The artist should be like God, omnipotent and invisible; we shoud feel him but not see him) Didn't Proust also want to achieve the same effect? Flaubert, however, made every effort to systematically eliminate the "je" but Proust seemed intent on muddling the waters for us.
Jocelyne wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "Albertine...if--and I say if you regard Albertine as a young man, it explains a few things. Why, for instance, does he insist on introducing her to the Verdurin..."Jocelyne, please post which Flaubert bio you are reading (an excuse to show us also your newly acquired skills..).. and write a review...
The book is called :Gustave Flaubert, Une manière spéciale de vivre. Pierre-Marc de Biasi. To my great chagrin, there is no picture to post.
Jocelyne wrote: ""L'artiste doit être dans son oeuvre comme Dieu dans la création, invisible et tout-puissant: qu'on le sente partout, mais qu'on ne le voie pas"Perfectly expressed. But you are right, Proust might like to be invisible and tout-puissant but alas, he's more transparent than invisible and more feeble than puissant.
Jocelyne wrote: "The book is called :Gustave Flaubert, Une manière spéciale de vivre. Pierre-Marc de Biasi. To my great chagrin, there is no picture to post."Is it this one?.. I stuck the picture of the cover...
Fionnuala wrote: Have I got this right, Eugene: you maintain that Albertine, and the jealousy she arouses, is simply the device which Proust uses to provoke the Narrator to begin writing? and
Albertine is trésor si l'on veut, mais trésor en échange duquel j'avais aliéné la liberté, la solitude, la pensée. which is why I originally quoted this passage.
And if the exchange were rescinded what will the Narrator do with his time of "la liberté, la solitude, la pensée"? What do you think, Fionnuala? Albertine is a diversion, an aspect of life that he has mistakenly (as it begins to dawn on him) chosen over art--reread the Narrator listening to the septet where he says it so clearly.
You say "device", I say excuse, and what I mean is that after her, when she is in the past, the Narrator will be clear to explore (to write of, if that was the answer to the question of what does the Narrator want) those (yet to be realized) Madeline moments of which she will become part, as Gilberte has become part, of the story toward the Narrator's writing.
Tell me why Albertine is only narrated from the Narrator's 1st person standpoint, and why are Charlus's thoughts, for example, omnisciently broadcast; tell me why we know so much of him and so little of her as they occupy a similar number of pages in the novel. Is not she more 'shallow' than he--or how would you describe it nicely, Fionnuala? Narrational devices in fiction can be thought of as key or tone changes in music as good writers are also good composers.
Eugene wrote: "...Tell me why Albertine is only narrated from the narrator's 1st person standpoint, and why are Charlus's thoughts, for example, omnisciently broadcast; tell me why we know so much of him and so little of her as they occupy a similar number of pages in the novel....The obvious reason why Albertine and her motivations remain so enigmatic for the reader would be that it is for the purposes of suspense but I know by now that in this work, the plot is always going to take second place to the themes so that while it may suit Proust, for a while, to have the reader in the dark about what Albertine really thinks, his primary purpose, as you seem to say, is far more complex. I've quoted a passage from page 469 GF in message #10 of the next discussion which has helped me to understand better the symbolic role Albertine plays in the Recherche.
Kris wrote: "This thread is for the discussion that will take place through Sunday, 6 Oct. of The Captive, to page 462 (to the paragraph beginning: “Already for some little time I had felt...”)"I'm not finding this passage in my translation. So I'm going by the stopping point for the French text, which is translated as "A moment earlier I had felt that I could no longer restrain the tears that came welling up in my eyes." in the middle of a paragraph.
'Come in and stop your husband drinking brandy,' in my cowardice I became at once a man, and did what all we grown men do when face to face with suffering and injustice: I preferred not to see them; I ran up to the top of the house to cry by myself..." MP In any great symphony, the composer introduces all the themes (operas work this way, too); not for nothing is it called "Overture." Every single one is there. The above quote, the scene at Montjouvain, jealousy, they're all there.
Kalliope wrote: "Jocelyne wrote: "The book is called :Gustave Flaubert, Une manière spéciale de vivre. Pierre-Marc de Biasi. To my great chagrin, there is no picture to post."Is it this one?.. I stuck the picture..."
Mine has a different cover, but it looks like the one.
Marcelita wrote: "In the Overture...the foundation stones are laid: "...'Come in and stop your husband drinking brandy,' in my cowardice I became at once a man, and did what all we grown men do when face to face ..."
Elizabeth wrote:
"In any great symphony, the composer introduces all the themes (operas work this way, too); not for nothing is it called "Overture." Every single one is there. The above quote, the scene at Montjouvain, jealousy, they're all there."
Isn't is amazing that it was Scott Moncrieff who titled these opening pages the "Overture?" Proust used "Combray."
Somehow, he intuitively felt, as you stated, it contained all the themes.
Thus, in one of my reading groups, we re-read the Overture after each volume.
Wow - I feel royally entertained and enlightened by reading this thread and its interweaved discussions. A privilege, really.Albertine to me is quite ghost like. An ethereal, faery queen shapeshifter, making her elusiveness to Narrator congruent. She is essence rather than character. She slips through his fingers like the sands of time.
When she explains the causes of her 'lies', I believe her - that they were necessitated by her love of the Narrator - and despair of the Narrator's reaction. He just can't trust that she loves him, because he's too busy trying to work out what he feels for her: I love her, I love her not etc.
Eugene - I agree with what you say about the impact of the un-finishedness of this volume. It does make it much more narrative driven. I read this week like I was reading the Girl With The Dragon Tatoo. If you wanted to give anyone an idea of what is the Proustian style, you wouldn't suggest reading The Captive. My sense from the beginning of the Captive is that we're coming up to the surface after a long, fathoms deep, underwater journey and that we are entering realtime - when the mission is debriefed - from a dreamy, amniotic state before.
Eugene wrote: "From his smile, a tribute to the defunct salonwhich he saw with his mind's eye, I understood that what
Brichot, perhaps without realising it, preferred in the old
drawing-room.."
Eugene, I agree...these passages keep us returning. For me, each re-reading brings new insights, as I am not the same person who had read it before.
How heart-retching for Proust knowing that the home he was born in, where he spent such glorious times, was replaced by an apartment building.
This was his birthplace...96 rue Jean de la Fontaine, once owned by his great uncle Louis Weil. You can see the ugly apartment building next to the damaged wall of 96,
http://maps.gstatic.com/m/streetview/...
Move the arrow to the left, for an even more horrible view!
A bird's-eye view of what is left of the garden, behind the ugly apartment building. Zoom.
https://maps.google.com/maps?oe=UTF-8...
Carter's biography describes Proust's life in Auteuil. Here is a snippet:
"His impressions, typically, play on all the senses:
'This house where we lived with my uncle, in Auteuil in the middle of a big garden... was completely lacking in style. Yet I can hardly describe the happiness I felt when, after having come up rue La Fontaine in bright sunlight and in the fragrance of the linden-trees, I went up to my room for a moment.'"
Marcel Proust: A Life, with a New Preface by the Author, by William C. Carter. (p 22)
The Year of Reading Proust
Books mentioned in this topic
Gustave Flaubert (other topics)Proust connu et inconnu (other topics)
On an unrelated note, will someone PLEASE tell me how to turn off autocorrect? Every time I've gone to the trouble to write a name with a circonflex, or accent grave, it "corrects" it. And it ruined the Dickinson poem I recently posted.