The Year of Reading Proust discussion
This topic is about
The Guermantes Way
The Guermantes Way, vol. 3
>
Through Sunday, 16 June: The Guermantes Way
date
newest »
newest »
Kalliope wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "ReemK10 says:"although a corset may help cinch in that waist." When the first Xtian missionaries went to China, late 18th/early 19th century, they were horrified at the custom of..."I believe you. I have 2 pairs of killing wedges i can only wear if i sit in the car,get of and enter the restaurant or house.Never walk more than 50 metres.Martin ,my singing husband,understands this idiocy of mine and bears with me.An angel!
Patricia wrote: "A dear friend of mine,Derek, died today after a long illness he faced with dignity like the English gentleman he was,so I take to heart all that has been said in these former posts about friendship..."I am so sorry, Patricia. Dignity is a fine quality. Not everyone is blessed with it. The poor grandmother! I have suffered two losses this year and Proust readers have been helped me with their kind comments. Marcelita, you were so wonderful. Proust is not consoling but he is unsentimental, astringent, satirical, and sometimes just plain funny, which for some reason helps me.
Marcelita wrote: "Eugene wrote: "Marcel Proust wrote: I looked at Saint-Loup, and I said to myself that it is a thing to be glad of when there is no lack of physical grace to serve as vestibule to the graces within,..."Marcelita, many thanks for church research. Was driving me crazy not to be able to picture it. It is the taste Proust gained from Ruskin for the very early medieval then within those unexpected vaulted arches. Vestibules indeed. Layers within layers.
Patricia: there are several ways to put in non-English punctuation marks, but the easiest way? Get on Microsoft Office Word (or whatever you have that is similar): click on "Insert." A menu (short) will drop down; click on "symbol." Instantly a huge, huge chart of everything you can imagine comes up; search til you find your a-circonflex or e-circonflex or c-cedilla, etc, and click "insert."Then: highlight what you've typed, right click and click on "copy." Then get out of Word, back to what you're typing, right-click again and hit "paste." Et voila! This is one of those kind of things that it takes about 3 times as long to type the instructions, as to do.
Again to Patricia re jeans: go to an upscalish dept store and find the men's pajama section. Men's cotton pajama bottoms (as long as the pattern doesn't look to jammie-ish) make very pretty loose summer slacks.
A couple of pages after the beginning of Part II of this volume (and in previous thread), he mentions how he is buying the Figaro to see if a story he has sent, is published:J'avais rejeté à mes pieds le Figaro que tous les jours je faisais acheter consciencieusement depuis que j'y avais envoyé un article qui n'y avait pas paru
and now in this weeks section we get to hear what that article was. He sent the writing on the three "clochers de Martinville", from the Combray section...
..cette voiture eût mérité de demeurer plus mémorable pour moi que celle du docteur Percepied sur le siège de laquelle j'avais composé cette petite description--précisément retrouvée il y avait peu de temps, arrangée, et vainement envoyée au Figaro--des clochers de Martinville
On Agadir, and St-Loup's wrong perceptions of the intentions of the German Emperor regarding a possible war...G-V talks about the conversations he had with Proust during the War years. Proust had stopped reading literature. He would only read newspapers following closely the way the war was going, or would work on his novel.
La guerre fut longtemps le principal sujet des conversations que j'eus avec Proust. Il y pensait sans cesse. Sur son lit traînaient toujours des cartes et de nombreux journaux...
Kalliope wrote: "On the Saint-André-des-Champs... interesting link to book:http://books.google.es/books?id=7nV5Y......"
Oh yes, Kalliope. Richard Bales, J. Theodore Johnson, Jr and Diane R. Leonard....three of my favorite "church" Proustians.
Johnson:
http://books.google.com/books?id=bH86...
Leonard:
http://books.google.com/books?id=3wUJ...
Jaye wrote: "Eugene wrote: "Proust makes much of the "wit" of the Guermantes; in The Guermantes Way, I find nothing witty about the Duchess or in what she says, however in Swann in Love (which reportedly happen..."True, her wit is very cutting and biting and often insults other people's dignity.
Elizabeth wrote: "Eugene: try Thoreau's A Week on the Concord and Merrimack Rivers...that is, if you haven't already. It's wonderful.Re the Duchesse's "wit." In college I happened to date several Ritzy East Coast..."
I never read it. I'll make a note of it. Thanks.
Jocelyne wrote: "Jaye wrote: "Eugene wrote: "Proust makes much of the "wit" of the Guermantes; in The Guermantes Way, I find nothing witty about the Duchess or in what she says, however in Swann in Love (which repo...""...her wit...insults other people's dignity."
Yes, Jocelyn. Cruelty...from the first pages of Combray...is a continuing thread.
“Bathilde! Come in and stop your husband drinking brandy!”
"This torture inflicted on her by my great-aunt...
—all these were things of the sort to which, in later years, one can grow so accustomed as to smile at them and to take the persecutor's side resolutely and cheerfully enough to persuade oneself that it is not really persecution;..."
"...in my cowardice I became at once a man, and did what all we grown men do when face to face with suffering and injustice: I preferred not to see them;..."MP (Swann's Way, p 14)
Thinking of the bullying that so many youth experience today, I get chills.
Is our society a mirror of the Guermantes' salon?
Have "we grow(n) so accustomed" to "this torture...suffering and injustice" that we have "preferred not to see them" like our narrator?
Marcelita wrote: "Jocelyne wrote: "Jaye wrote: "Eugene wrote: "Proust makes much of the "wit" of the Guermantes; in The Guermantes Way, I find nothing witty about the Duchess or in what she says, however in Swann in..."Very good point about our society being a mirror of the Guermantes' salon. Plus ça change plus c'est la même chose.
ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: ""And so the sham men of letters, the pseudo-intellectuals whom Mlle d'Argencourt entertained, picturing Oriane de Guermantes, whom they would never have an opportunity of knowing personally, as som..."Actually, the whole section on the Guermantes, on how they behave, how they compare with the Courvoisiers etc... is structured around Aladdin...
It talks repeatedly of the "Génie de la famille" and the various ways it manifests itself and protects or directs the behavior of the family members or determines their way of being, etc...
The Génie coming out of the Guermantes lamp....
Yet another quote from Racine, this time from Andromaque, which is one of my favorites.So far, I think that apart from Phèdre, we have had a quote from Esther. and may be one from Andromaque already.. I may go back to check.
Grâce aux dieux! Mon malheur passe mon espérance
And another extraordinary extract is on the possible loss of manners if society were to develop more egalitarian.. Such a premonition to today's world. Every body is so rude now...
Puis, si même la politesse disparaissait, rien ne prouve que ce serait un malheur. Enfin une société ne serait-elle pas secrètement hiérarchisée au fur et à mesure qu'elle serait en fait plus démocratique? C'est fort possible.
And another remarkable quote on the nature of his fascination with the Guermantes, the princesse de Parme, etc...
.. et si la princesse de Parme avait été souveraine d'un État, sans doute eusse-je eu l'idée d'en parler à peu près d'un président de la République, c'est-à-dire pas du tout.
Kalliope wrote: Actually, the whole section on the Guermantes, on how they behave, how they compare with the Courvoisiers etc... is structured around Alladin...
You're right, the family genie. Wasn't that clever of Proust?!
ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "You're right, the family genie. W..."
Yes, it is an image or concept that he keeps using for the whole section. It is very powerful.
And after the section on "le Génie de la famille Guermantes", we get the section on "l'Esprit de Guermantes", which is not quite the same.I love the way the concept is introduced:
"L'esprit des Guermantes --entité aussi inexistante que la quadrature du cercle, selon la Duchesse, qui se croyait la seule Guermantes a le posséder.."
Isn't it interesting how we see traces of Proust's reading life in the Recherche, and from the very beginning. In this section, it is clear from several references that he has been rereading Mille et Une Nuits translated by Mardrus as some of you have already pointed out. The paragraph beginning, "Cet éloignement imaginaire du passé..." was intended to be used in an essay Proust planned to write on Mille et Une Nuits according to the notes in my edition. That same paragraph has a reference to James Macpherson's Ossian cycle of poems so perhaps Proust had been reading those too. (He refers to 'médiocres mystificateurs' in that context but it's not clear whether he means Macpherson or the pretend bard Ossian himself). He mentions Nietzsche too in this section.
Kalliope wrote: "Yet another quote from Racine, this time from Andromaque, which is one of my favorites.So far, I think that apart from Phèdre, we have had a quote from Esther. and may be one from Andromaque alre...
Grâce aux dieux! Mon malheur passe mon espérance"
Yes, Proust must have known entire sections of Racine off by heart. That one is from Andromaque, as you said - act V, scene 5.
I've finished the section and laughed a lot along with the Narrator at the entire clan and their manners. I love the idea of the Guermantes handshake which enables the hand itself to become the object of the greeting and so the person being greeted becomes irrelevant. Also the insistence du regard perforateur or scrutateur is such a comical concept, especially funny since it is so adroitly done that it can't be copied by the Courvoisiers.
I did feel overwhelmed by the weight of history which lay upon the Duchesses slender shoulders, the memory of those eighteen Oriane de Guermantes who had gone before her, none of whom had failed to make a less than brilliant marriage. What hope had she in spite of her aunt's example and we see her bearing the burden of that obligation - an unfaithful and sometimes boorish husband although it was curious to see how astutely he protected her from any visitors who might take from the elegance of her salon au sens social du mot comme au sens matériel où il suffit de meubles qu'on ne trouve pas jolis, mais qu'on laisse comme remplissage et preuve de richesse, pour le rendre affreux.
Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Yet another quote from Racine, this time from Andromaque, which is one of my favorites.So far, I think that apart from Phèdre, we have had a quote from Esther. and may be one fro..."
I also found the handshake section rather comical! Regarding how much Proust's readings influenced his writing I was also struck by the fact that his mother read François le Champi to him as a boy, a story that prophetically and eerily parallels his own fused relationship with his mother.
Yes, Jocelyne, I was thinking of Georges Sand when I made the comment. There have been so many real authors, and the odd imaginary one, referenced since that first childhood selection was mentioned . I'm sure someone somewhere has made a list.....
There was that book:Proust Was a Neuroscientist. Well, years before Bourdieu, he was also a sociologist. The prince of Agrigente does not live up to his title, neither princely nor reminiscent of Agrigente. Then in such close juxtaposition that it's hard not to see them as analogous, the narrator goes straight to a banker.De sorte qu'il se trouvait à la fois le seul homme au monde qui fût prince d'Agrigente et peut-être l'homme au monde qui l'était le moins. D'ailleurs fort heureux de l'être, mais comme un banquier est heureux d'avoir de nombreuses actions d'une mine,...
So there we have Bourdieu's idea of cultural capital, ta da! Proust prefigures everything I think.
Kalliope wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: ""And so the sham men of letters, the pseudo-intellectuals whom Mlle d'Argencourt entertained, picturing Oriane de Guermantes, whom they would never h...""The issue of translations of this Arabian work is fascinating..."
Kalliope and ReemK10, I'm still thinking about your superb posts and the oral and literary journey the '1001 Nights' has taken. For serious scholars and curious historians, here is something for under your pillow; I find it interesting that the first stories were in the oral tradition related to an actual incident.
Excerpt:
"The tale told by the King of China’s steward in the Hunchback story in the 1001 Nights (N 121.22-130.11)1 is adapted directly from a report about events said to have occurred early in the tenth century in Baghdad and transmitted not as fiction but as history. A comparison of the two accounts of these events—the historical and the fictional—shows the manner in which the storyteller went about transforming history into fiction." M. Mahdi
http://journal.oraltradition.org/arti...
"Muhsin Mahdi is James Richard Jewett Professor of Arabic at Harvard University. His most recent work is 'The Thousand and One Nights (Alf Layla wa-Layla) from the Earliest Known Sources,' published by E. J. Brill, Leiden.
( http://www.brill.com/thousand-and-one...)
The third volume of this work, which deals with the history of the text. "From History to Fiction: The Tale Told by the King’s Steward in the Thousand and One Nights Volume 4, Issue 1-2 (January, 1989)"
Download article: http://journal.oraltradition.org/issu...
Eugene wrote: "The Frick yesterday: The Impressionist Line from Degas to Toulouse-Lautrec: Drawings and Prints from the Clark, the familiar Whistler portrait of Montesquiou, which having read portions of his let..."So envious...a day spent with such a cast of characters. Do the literary ones seem more 'alive' at times?
Historygirl wrote: "@Eugene I agree the scene with Saint Loup in the restaurant illustrates friendship and its challenges, why the narrator loves SL, and also an incredibly thick tapestry of social distinctions. The n...""...the Jewish room--amazing how segregated, like race in US but anti-semitism there."
Benjamin Taylor, who is writing a book "Marcel Proust. A Life in the Third Republic," for the newly launched Yale Jewish Lives series, told our Proust reading group, that he believed that also...until a colleague of his stated, "that 'Jewish room' is pure fiction."
If anyone can find source material to the contrary, I'm sure Benjamin Taylor would be interested.
Patricia wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "Bernard-Henri Lévy's new wife Arielle Dombasle who supposedly has the smalled waist in Paris must be related to her. ...."
"I think the painters did the photoshopping back then."
Yep, Nadar was an expert. We should try to find the "before" and "after" photographs of Marcel's mother, Jeanne Clémence Weil Proust. No wonder he was so popular; he also whittled waists.
Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Yet another quote from Racine, this time from Andromaque, which is one of my favorites.So far, I think that apart from Phèdre, we have had a quote from Esther. and may be one fro..."
"...those eighteen Oriane de Guermantes who had gone before her..."
Not the most pertinent passage, as I was looking for a post regarding the facial features that travel from one generation to the next.
I stumbled across the page below, while trying to discover the name of "The Ethereal Lady."
Here is a lite-site showing the facial similarities (some closer than others) using the British Royals.
http://www.people.com/people/package/...
Eugene wrote: "Marcel Proust wrote: I looked at Saint-Loup, and I said to myself that it is a thing to be glad of when there is no lack of physical grace to serve as vestibule to the graces within, and when the c..."This "particular" evening, from being seated in 'the Jewish room' to having Saint Loup climb over the banquets so the Prince's vicuña cloak could be "arranged" around his shoulders, is indelible.
"He spoke to me of friendship, affection, regret, although like all travellers of his sort he was going off the next morning for some months which he was to spend in the country and would only be staying a couple of nights in Paris on his way back to Morocco (or elsewhere),
but the words which he thus let fall into the warm furnace of my heart this evening kindled a pleasant glow there.
Our infrequent meetings, and this one in particular, have since assumed epoch-making proportions in my memory." MP (p 565)
Recently, I have been reflecting on Proustitute's own "epoch-making" 2013 Proust reading group. I leave so nourished, with my synapses lighting my mind's eye. My humble, "Thank you!" to every soul to posts, either frequently or rarely. I have learned from you all.
Marcelita wrote: "..Recently, I have been reflecting on Proustitute's own "epoch-making" 2013 Proust reading group. I leave so nourished, with my synapses lighting my mind's eye. My humble, "Thank you!" to every soul to posts, either frequently or rarely. I have learned from you all. "Marcelita,
why does this sentence sound like an adieu?
Karen,
I loved that bit about Agrigente too, although I only saw Proust's perfectly worded paradox rather than Bourdieu's cultural capital:
De sorte qu'il se trouvait à la fois le seul homme au monde qui fût prince d'Agrigente et peut-être l'homme au monde qui l'était le moins.
There's another perfect paradox about Mme de Guermantes in the June 23rd section - I must post it..
Fionnuala wrote: "Proust's perfectly worded paradox"Indeed, wonderful sentence!
Fionnuala wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "..Recently, I have been reflecting on Proustitute's own "epoch-making" 2013 Proust reading group. I leave so nourished, with my synapses lighting my mind's eye. My humble, "Thank ...""...why does this sentence sound like an adieu?"
Ha! Because I am leaving for the 5th Balbec-Normand Proust conference in Trouville/Cabourg in a few hours...and am not sure when I will have a chance to post again. Will be staying at the Grand Hotel, overlooking the ocean, re-reading my favorite passages from WBG and pretending to be inside the "aquarium."
Marcelita wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "..Recently, I have been reflecting on Proustitute's own "epoch-making" 2013 Proust reading group. I leave so nourished, with my synapses lighting my mind's eye. ..."Have a fantastic trip, Marcelita!
Marcelita wrote: "Ha! Because I am leaving for the 5th Balbec-Normand Proust conference in Trouville/Cabourg in a few hours...and am not sure when I will have a chance to post again. Will be staying at the Grand Hotel, overlooking the ocean, re-reading my favorite passages from WBG and pretending to be inside the "aquarium."So it's
au revoir
but not adieu, Marcelita.
I am glad. Have a wonderful time in Balbec.
Marcelita wrote: Recently, I have been reflecting on Proustitute's own "epoch-making" 2013 Proust reading group. I leave so nourished, with my synapses lighting my mind's eye. My humble, "Thank you!" to every soul to posts, either frequently or rarely. I have learned from you all.
And we have learned from you! Thanks for all of these links. I will have to spend time studying them. Have a wonderful time in France. Don't forget to leave pink post-it notes for Kalliope to find! Bon Voyage!
Fionnuala wrote: "Marcelita,why does this sentence sound like an adieu
Very observant Fionnuala. I'm impressed.
Marcelita: re Royal resemblances. Look up the 5th Duke of Devonshire; quite easy; just google him and the 17th/18th century portrait of him will come up (I found all this out by reading his wife's memoirs and seeing his picture in them). His wife, by the way, was born Lady Spencer. And the 5th Duke (who was, by the way, a bit of a lout) is Prince Harry's double. Eerie.
Marcelita wrote:Here is a lite-site showing the facial similarities (some closer than others) using the British Royals.
http://www.people.com/people/package/...
Amazing similarities!
ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Marcelita,why does this sentence sound like an adieu
Very observant Fionnuala. I'm impressed."
Isn't it fortunate, Reem, that there are so many of us still aboard this Proust train half way through the year? Roll on the Proust train...
Fionnuala wrote: "Isn't it fortunate, Reem, that there are so many of us still aboard this Proust train half way through the year? Roll on the Proust train...While you were gone Fionnuala, Kalliope suggested creating a lounge for when this Proust train reaches its final destination. We all know that the train will actually keep going and going as we attempt to make sense of it all, hence a need for this lounge and for us all to be able to stop by for tea and madeleines. Ce Ce and Jocelyne have picked out wigs ( long story) and Kalliope and I are going more exotic. lol
When Marcelita wrote: "Recently, I have been reflecting on Proustitute's own "epoch-making" 2013 Proust reading group."
It made me think that Proustitute should create a social media site called FP (as opposed to FB) for Fellow Proustians. That could be our meeting area for when this year of reading Proust comes to an end!
Marcelita wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "..Recently, I have been reflecting on Proustitute's own "epoch-making" 2013 Proust reading group. I leave so nourished, with my synapses lighting my mind's eye. ..."Have a good time...!!.. Some of us will be in Cabourg on the 5th...
ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "While you were gone Fionnuala, Kalliope suggested creating a lounge for when this Proust train reaches its final destination...Ce Ce and Jocelyne have picked out wigs ( long story) and Kalliope and I are going more exotic."I'm building up such a collection of 'about Proust' books, from Beckett to Gautier-Vignal, and I'm sure you are all doing the same, that we could easily continue our discussions for years, if not in this actual group, then in a new related one,
Kalliope wrote: "Some of us will be in Cabourg on the 5th..."
Complete with wigs and more exotic regalia...
Fionnuala wrote: "I'm building up such a collection of 'about Proust' books, from Beckett to Gautier-Vignal, and I'm sure you are all doing the same, that we could easily continue our discussions for years, if not in this actual group, then in a new related one."
That's great! You said it before, the year of reading Proust may very well become the decade of reading Proust which makes sense because if we are going to read him, we should "master" him.
Proustitute should consider extending this journey.
As Fionnuala had said earlier, this should probably be Proust's decade.
Fionnuala wrote: "ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "While you were gone Fionnuala, Kalliope suggested creating a lounge for when this Proust train reaches its final destination...Ce Ce and Jocelyne have picked out wigs ..."After reading the posts for this section, I've added The Arabian Nights to my reading list. Maybe we could do that on the next leg of this journey.
In this section I found Proust's deeply nuanced observance of the complexities and rewards and costs of friendship fascinating. I am speaking of Proust the writer vs the Narrator's voice...somehow this section read more transparently as Proust speaking.
I also found so much absurd and humorous in the machinations of the aristocracy. At the same time I recognized similar absurdities that were alive and well in the working class world I was raised in. We humans are quite fascinating in our posturing.
I also loved the multi-faceted prism of privilege. For instance Robert can defy convention, run along the back of the banquette to join his friend in the 'wrong' section and graciously drape the Narrator with the gift of a cape BECAUSE, and only because, he is unquestionably endowed with the position of an aristocrat...graced by the 'genie' of his family. Nothing is as it seems...layer upon layer...gems cut intricately...reflecting rainbows of light from every angle.
I should also add Arabian Nights to my reading list. I just read La mare au diable, an easy short read.I agree that posturing knows no boundaries- age, class or time.
The Year of Reading Proust
Books mentioned in this topic
Proust Was a Neuroscientist (other topics)Bleak House (other topics)
Why can't I wear this *peplum* instead of these stupid rigid jeans, cold in winter ,hot in summer and impossible to put them on when they come out of the drying machine! i have to break this atavism.