The Year of Reading Proust discussion
This topic is about
The Guermantes Way
The Guermantes Way, vol. 3
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Through Sunday, 23 June: The Guermantes Way
Marcelita wrote: "The "teaser" in Proust's life was Horance Finaly. "La Raspeliere" Mme. Verdurin's summer villa was inspired by Les Frémonts in Trouville. Jacques-Émile Blanche sketched Proust on October 1, 1898..."
This is such a great site! Thank you for that.
Kalliope wrote: "Jocelyne wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "On Balzac:...(On voit , pour d'autres raisons, dans un dictionnaire de l'oeuvre de Balzac où les personnages les plus illustres ne figurent que selon leurs rappo..."
I read Balzac Girl with the Golden Eyes because it was mentioned as an influence on Proust regarding character of Albertine. Haunting, awesome. Pere Goriot also gains depth in this context. The Magic Skin (bad translation) of La Peau de Chagrin closer to Skin of Regret is relevant too about time and aging. Have only scratched the surface, by no means expert. Golden Eyes and Magic Skin are gothics not realism of Eugenie Grandet or Pere G. The narrator might criticize my taste as he does Orianne's.
Historygirl wrote: "Jocelyne wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "On Balzac:...(On voit , pour d'autres raisons, dans un dictionnaire de l'oeuvre de Balzac où les personnages les plus illustres ne figurent que selon leurs rappo..."
THank you for this. I actually never read "La fille aux yeux d'or". I'll make a note of it.
Jocelyne wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "The "teaser" in Proust's life was Horance Finaly. "La Raspeliere" Mme. Verdurin's summer villa was inspired by Les Frémonts in Trouville. Jacques-Émile Blanche sketched Proust ..."
Watch Larry Bensky, of Radio Proust, as he stands on the grounds and describes Les Frémonts, the model of Raspeliere. (May have spoilers.)
@13:55
http://www.radioproust.org/multimedia...
Naturally, the whole video is marvelous.
Kalliope wrote: "Martin wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "ReemK10: In the book of Genesis, Nimrod is described as "a mighty hunter." Remember the dozen brace of--was it pheasants?--M. de Grouchy brings to the Duchesse."..."
Thanks! I was searching the exact phrase which explains why I couldn't find it. Re-reading the passage now and it all comes together.
I haven't read the comments for this week yet but have to mention this particular 'mot d'Oriane' which no one at the dinner picked up on: car si elle avait sept bouchėes, les bouches, si j'ose m'exprimer ainsi, eussent dépassé la douzaine.The picture Proust is giving us of Oriane is so multi-faceted: we see how she protects herself from those she doesn't choose to know, even her relatives and other titled people, and how she seeks out instead those who will show off her salon to advantage.
We see the double act she and her husband, her impressario, perform so faultlessly, and all designed to further her reputation as a wit.
We see too that most of what she says is not particularly brilliant but so much more so than anything produced by the rest of the clan.
We see how she uses her husband's mistresses for her own ends with impeccable timing.
And then we see how cleverly she maintains her status as a leader in society by always choosing to do the unexpected rather than the conventional.
And furthermore, in spite of her unconventional habits, she chooses always to refer to her husband as Monsieur le duc in front of the servants and wields a whip when it suits as when she decides that the valet de pied is not to have his much awaited day off after all.
We begin to see a very formidable woman indeed, a fully worked portrait of that intriguing but lightly drawn Princesse de Laumes whom we first met with Swann at Madame de Saint Euverte's musical evening such a long time ago.
Fionnuala wrote: "I haven't read the comments for this week yet but have to mention this particular 'mot d'Oriane' which no one at the dinner picked up on: car si elle avait sept bouchėes, les bouches, si j'ose m'ex..."I am so glad you are back posting comments in the Group, Fionnuala. We have missed you. I am sorry that the reasons that kept you away were so unfortunate. But welcome back.
Yours is a brilliant analysis of la Duchesse. I love the role of impresario you have seen in le Duc...
Yes, we have come a long way from the early impressions and then also of the negative ones that immediately succeeded and enjoy now her more complex nature.
The relationship between the Guermantes couple is also very complex.
I have just reread this extract spoken from the point of view of the husband:
Mais les plaisanteries de la princesse des Laumes sur le mauvais goût de sa belle-mère ayant été de tradition pendant le peu de temps où le prince avait été épris de sa femme, à son amour pour la seconde avait survécu un certain dédain pour l'infériorité d'esprit de la première, dédain qui s'alliait d'ailleurs à beaucoup d'attachement et de respect.
I'm probably echoing some previous comments here but I'm still fascinated by the conversation at the Guermantes dinner now that the long aside about the various aspects of the Guermantes clan has been completed for the moment. The notes in my edition say that while the duc is recounting the story of Mme de Heudicourt's miserly dinner, Proust had planned to insert a few passages of a conversation between the Narrator and the duc's mistress, the Comtesse d'Arpajon in which the mistress invites him to her château where she has collections of letters dating back to the seventeenth century which she believes might interest him. They then go on to discuss Flaubert and she brings up Flaubert's letters whereupon Mme de Guermantes neatly picks up on this conversation and mentions Gambetta's letters having first allowed the story of her dinner with the unfortunate Bornier, at which she dared not breath until the cheese was served, to produce its effect.
She's like a stand-up comedian, her timing is always perfect.
Fionnuala wrote: "I'm probably echoing some previous comments here but I'm still fascinated by the conversation at the Guermantes dinner now that the long aside about the various aspects of the Guermantes clan has b..."That footnote is very interesting. I think I have to get your edition for my second read.
I have to say that I am finding the Duchesse very entertaining..... the passage on the Iénas and the Empire furniture and Dutch art is also hilarious... she can be so cruel to the Princesse de Parme..
Kalliope wrote: "... I love the role of impresario you have seen in le Duc...."Thanks Kall for all your kind comments. I have to admit that even though I had already begun to imagine the Duc in the role of impresario, it was the Narrator who used the word first - but now I can't find where it was mentioned...
Proust's description of the duchess is indeed entertaining but I haven't got to the Iéna bit yet.
Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "... I love the role of impresario you have seen in le Duc...."Thanks Kall for all your kind comments. I have to admit that even though I had already begun to imagine the Duc in th..."
"and the excitement they had caused lasted long after the departure of the sparkling lady and her impressario." ML p. 637.
Kalliope wrote: "Je n'avais pas seulement vu Bellini, Winterhalter, les architectes jésuites, un ébéniste de la Restauration, venir prendre la place de génies qu'on avait dits fatigués et changeants...Here is Net..."
thanks for posting the Netrebko, Kalliope - a majestically artistic accompaniment to Proust
Yes, the double act of M et Mme de G get top billing this week but I love the narrator's turn as MC with his witty asides, such as this in reference to the stinky ortolan eggs:"However, for one who had already sat down more than once at the mystic board, the consumption of these latter was not indispensable." ML p.703
Yes, Marcus, plenty of witty asides on the part of Proust as well as the Narrator, some so subtle that we almost miss them: we learn that the Comtesse d'Arpajon has been supplanted in the Duc's affections by the Marquise de Surgis-le-Duc and we imagine the Duc materialising suddenly at the unfortunate Marquise's bedside like the ghost of Don Juan...
More comedy from the Guermantes double act: ...vous êtes toujours dans les extremes, Oriane." dit M. de Guermantes reprenant son rôle de falaise qui en s'opposant à la vague la force à lancer plus haut son panache d'écume." "Basin saut encore mieux que moi que je dis la vérité, répondit la Duchesse, mais il se croit obligé de prendre des airs sévères à cause de votre présence et il a peur que je vous scandalise."
Narrator as hilarious MC: " 'Even Les Contemplations still has some fine things in it,' added the Duchesse, with whom her listeners dared not disagree, and with good reason." I mean, one scarcely feels the knife go in on that one...
Marcelita wrote: "Jocelyne wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "The "teaser" in Proust's life was Horance Finaly. "La Raspeliere" Mme. Verdurin's summer villa was inspired by Les Frémonts in Trouville. Jacques-Émile Blanche..."
Marcelita, this is such an extraordinary video! What a thrill to see not only the room decorated as 'Proust's room' at the Grand Hotel, but also the Tour Tréville, the house of the Straus family and, I always wanted to see it, the 'Verdurin' house. I loved the way Proust described the view of the sea from the garden of the Verdurin house and it is so well illustrated in the video.
I also loved seeing the Alexander Harrison paintings and what a treat to hear William Carter! Thank you for that.
Elizabeth wrote: "Narrator as hilarious MC: " 'Even Les Contemplations still has some fine things in it,' added the Duchesse, with whom her listeners dared not disagree, and with good reason." I mean, one scarcely..."I noted this too. How subtle and lethal. I also enjoyed the Duc being referred to as an impresario. Earlier at the party, I was wondering how the narrator could possibly enjoy that kind of company until I realized how much fun he was actually having and sharing with the reader.
Fionnuala, the portrait you sketched of the Duchesse made her fearsome and also a bit pathetic. Well put.
Jocelyne wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Jocelyne wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "The "teaser" in Proust's life was Horance Finaly. "La Raspeliere" Mme. Verdurin's summer villa was inspired by Les Frémonts in Trouville. Jac..."
"I also loved seeing the Alexander Harrison paintings..."
I agree totally! Harrison had such an impact on Marcel. That's why I respect Larry Bensky so much; he understands the power of the visual and incorporates it into RadioProust.com.
Larry has had an amazing life.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Be...
If in one of the posts above I pinned Winterhalter's famous portrait of Sissi, now she comes up in the text.>i>.. et tout ça s'appliquait à la mort de l'impératrice d'Autriche!
--Pauvre femme!..., s'écria la princesse, quelle délicieuse créature c'était!
--Oui, répondit la duchesse, un peu folle, un peu insensée, mais c'était une très bonne femme, une gentille folle très aimable....
Sissi was assassinated in 1898.
The episode of the princesse trying to get the duchesse to help St-Loup out of the Moroccan post is complex... It starts when St-Loup tells the Narrator that he wants to ask his aunt for help with the général Saint-John (last week section) .. and continues in this section with the princesse mentioning the général de Monserfeuil, who is not the right one. And although the duchesse acknowledges that the issue should be addressed to St-John if it is to have any effect, she however seems to be dragging her feet.
Seems a premonition...
Kalliope wrote: "The episode of the princesse trying to get the duchesse to help St-Loup out of the Moroccan post is complex... It starts when St-Loup tells the Narrator that he wants to ask his aunt for help wit...she however seems to be dragging her feet."
Perhaps you are right about the premonition but what surprised me was the Narrator's rather harsh reaction. He spoke of "la véritable méchanceté de Mme de Guermantes" in this context. He then went on to show that she had reasons for not approaching Moncerfeuil (what a name!) about Saint Loup's posting and that she did agree finally to approach someone more useful. Also, she said she had enquired about the danger and that it wasn't as dangerous as the Princesse de Parme seemed to think....
The Princesse de Parme has such an important role in these scenes, doesn't she? Her naiveté allows Proust to highlight the Duchesse de G's wit at every turn. The Duc is hardly necessary anymore. This entire book is like a play or a film script. I can see it all happening before my eyes. The Duc glancing sharply around at his guests to see if they've got his wife's jokes, the Princesse, covering her ignorance of the Moreau painting of Chasseriau behind a nervous laugh. It is all so graphic.
I mentioned Don Juan in an earlier posting and now I've just come across a reference to Don Juan d'Autriche. Coincidence.
I made it to the end of this week's section! Que voulez-vous que je vous dise?
One could argue...if you desire a liberal arts education, you only need to devour Proust. Encyclopedically delicious.
Just finished reading this week's section, and I have to say Proust's characterization of Madame de Guermantes is rather fascinating. The narrator's infatuation with the Duchess and then the discovery that she was not how he envisioned her to be at all shows that he is maturing in his perceptions of people.He put her up on that pedestal and knocked it right down! I believe reading this we are to see how we are to blame for our projections of people, and that this is the lesson that Proust wants us to learn. Do you agree?
ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "Just finished reading this week's section, and I have to say Proust's characterization of Madame de Guermantes is rather fascinating. The narrator's infatuation with the Duchess and then the discov..."Yes, very much so, Reem... Somewhere though, he says that "later on" he learnt to see that Mme de Guermantes did distinguish herself from the others. But now she has lost the fascination that the Narrator had with her "name". I will see whether I can find this.. it was earlier on.
Kalliope wrote: Somewhere though, he says that "later on" he learnt to see that Mme de Guermantes did distinguish herself from the others. But now she has lost the fascination that the Narrator had with her "name". Yes, a fascination first with the name and then with the woman bearing the name. This was a section where Proust wanted us laugh and we did! There is obviously some satire on the whole social game being played out by the Guermantes set. Yet, I don't think it just satire about that era. I think it is more about how we ( human nature) look at others, with wonder and delight in what we have created of them, only to bring them crashing down in our dissappointment that they can't be whom we want them to be. I believe that is the problem that the narrator had with the Guermantes name, and the people who held it.
The Apotheosis of Capitalism: the fact that the Duc and Duchesse regard favors as "credit." I.e. the Duc does not want to "waste his credit" by asking the General a favor...since it would use up credit he might want for himself in the future. Jeez.
Elizabeth wrote: "The Apotheosis of Capitalism: the fact that the Duc and Duchesse regard favors as "credit." I.e. the Duc does not want to "waste his credit" by asking the General a favor...since it would use up ..."That is so typical. If you're going to ask for a favor, you're going to save it for your own personal interest. C'est la vie!
Maybe I misunderstood but I thought that although the narrator was disappointed by the Duchesse and makes fun of how shallow and vapid these aristocrats can be, what attracts him to them is the history carried by their names. Did I have the wrong read?
Jocelyne wrote: "Maybe I misunderstood but I thought that although the narrator was disappointed by the Duchesse and makes fun of how shallow and vapid these aristocrats can be, what attracts him to them is the his..."I believe that there is no wrong read. It is whatever speaks to you. I'm sure it is a bit of both. For me, what resonated was that it is the narrator who inflated the weight of the Guermantes name as opposed to the Courvoisier name which should have been treated the same.He made them seem holier than thou and then realized that they really weren't very different, having similar petty instincts as everyone else. They just had a pretty stage. Of course this attitude has to be tied in with the fact that they were aristocrats and thus different, so it is a bit of both.
Did I just contradict myself? lol
Jocelyne wrote: "Maybe I misunderstood but I thought that although the narrator was disappointed by the Duchesse and makes fun of how shallow and vapid these aristocrats can be, what attracts him to them is the his..."This continues in the next week, but I also agree with Reem. The Narrator is not entirely critical.
Kalliope mentions how cruel Mme la Duchesse is to the Princesse de Parme...but she's very careful to treat her with all the accouterments of Royalty. One thing (among many) I dislike of the translation of TGW I'm reading is that he has Oriane address the Princesse (who really is a bit of a goose) as "Madame." Whereas Moncrieff (and others) has Oriane address her as "Ma'am," which much better illustrates her Royal status.
I think the relationship, as well as the interaction, between Oriane and the Princesse de Parme is impossible to define in black and white terms like cruel or respectful. We remember that Proust uses the Princess de Parme as a foil for Oriane's wit or otherwise the scene wouldn't work so well in terms of our entertainment, nor would it allow the Narrator to point out the stupidities of the Faubourg Saint-Germain milieu which he seems set on doing. His own insights regarding the Princesse de Parme underline her naiveté just as sharply as Oriane's:La princesse de Parme, qui ignorait même le nom du peintre, fit de violents mouvements de tête et sourit avec ardeur afin de manifester son admiration pour ce tableau. mais l'intensité de sa mimique ne parvint pas à remplace cette lumière qui reste absente de nos yeux tant que nous ne savons pas de quoi on veut nous parler.
Karen,
Here's the perfectly worded paradox I spoke about in last week's thread:
Comme ce goût (le goût de Mme de G) était à l'opposé du mien, elle fournissait, à mon esprit, de la littérature quand elle parlait du faubourg Saint-Germain, et ne me paraissait jamais si stupidement faubourg Saint-Germain que quand elle me parlait littérature.
I wonder how that reads in English...
Thanks for that paradox Fionnuala. I think I saw it, was it in this week's bit? So tired of that long long long excursion about the Courvoisiers and the Guermantes - thank goodness for a little conversation at last. Can we go outside soon? I'm suffocating in here. Stuck in the salon for weeks.
Finished this week's section. I'm really quite enjoying the Duchess's snide remarks. All that stuff about Empire style! Isn't that against all expectations - republican?
So glad you enjoyed the play, Karen. That's what it was, wasn't it, a great long scene where we watched enthralled as the Duchess tossed out her pithy comments like some character out of Oscar Wilde or Noel Coward and the duke alternately smirked and seethed. Such fun!
Fionnuala wrote: "So glad you enjoyed the play, Karen. That's what it was, wasn't it, a great long scene where we watched enthralled as the Duchess tossed out her pithy comments like some character out of Oscar Wild..."Very true.. the theatrical... started out in the Baignoire... the aristocratic stage.
Yes! Absolutely. You could really see it, the looks going back and forth. The narrator takes himself right back, barely there at all. Just near the end of this part where the Prince Von (so funny) tries to entice him away from Charlus (nod nod wink wink). But I had to go and check out who Gilbert is. Are we supposed to know? I wasn't sure if my memory was faulty or if this was one of those Proustian things, just name dropping, no explanation until we (undoubtedly?) meet him again later on.
·Karen· wrote: "Yes! Absolutely. You could really see it, the looks going back and forth. The narrator takes himself right back, barely there at all. Just near the end of this part where the Prince Von (so funny) ..."And the whole section has all these references to the various seats, in their various styles...
·Karen· wrote: "But I had to go and check out who Gilbert is. Are we supposed to know?"Isn't Gilbert the Prince de Guermantes?
Richard wrote: "·Karen· wrote: "But I had to go and check out who Gilbert is. Are we supposed to know?"Isn't Gilbert the Prince de Guermantes?"
That's what I understood too, Richard but I was a bit unsure about his relationship to the duke and Charlus and Saint-Loup's mother, who are all siblings, aren't they? So Is Gilbert their cousin, the son of the oldest brother of their father, the previous Duke? And would that make him Oriane's cousin too?
Fionnuala wrote: "I think the relationship, as well as the interaction, between Oriane and the Princesse de Parme is impossible to define in black and white terms like cruel or respectful. We remember that Proust u..."I was thinking about the role of the Princesse de Parme and "foil" is a great word. if the Duc is the impressario the Princesse is the straight man (or woman). She lacks cultural knowledge, does not understand French aristocratic families or manners, and is personally naive. She completely accepts Orianne's authority and brilliance. Unlike the men or even Mdm de Arpajon she is not described as having any other interests or personal concerns except the salon. She hangs on Orianne's words and is astounded, amused, confused by turns. And she is a royalty. Proust makes the most royal member of the group the stupidest, or to be more generous, the worst educated and least cultured.
Fionnuala wrote: "Richard wrote: "·Karen· wrote: "But I had to go and check out who Gilbert is. Are we supposed to know?"Isn't Gilbert the Prince de Guermantes?"
That's what I understood too, Richard but I was a ..."
Yes, they are cousins... and Gilbert married the Bavarian princess.. and yes, also Orianne's cousin.. The fact that the cousins were intermarrying makes the whole Guermantes click all the more enclosed....
Karen says: "All that stuff about Empire style! Isn't that against all expectations - republican?"You've hit the nail on the head, Karen. This is a wonderful metaphor for the entire corrupt hypocrisy upon which the aristocracy is built. To be horribly snarky about the "Empire nobility" yet admire its furniture. Gah.
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And also: Gilbert, Prince de Guermantes, is described as the Duc's "cousin." But remember, the Narrator, in this same section says (and I paraphrase): to have had a common ancestor during the reign of Louis XIII was enough for Oriane to refer to someone as her "cousin." I don't ever think it's made particularly clear which kind of cousinage Gilbert's and Basin's is...
Elizabeth wrote: "And also: Gilbert, Prince de Guermantes, is described as the Duc's "cousin." But remember, the Narrator, in this same section says (and I paraphrase): to have had a common ancestor during the rei...""I don't ever think it's made particularly clear which kind of cousinage Gilbert's and Basin's is..."
Patrick Alexander's Guermantes Family Tree...SPOILER ALERT.
http://www.whoswhoinproust.com/Pages/...
Article on Patrick Alexander:
http://www.whoswhoinproust.com/Pages/...
Marcelita wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "And also: Gilbert, Prince de Guermantes, is described as the Duc's "cousin." But remember, the Narrator, in this same section says (and I paraphrase): to have had a common ances..."The genealogical tree does not clarify it any further since the three branches of cousins descend from the general concept of The Guermantes Family, which is what Elizabeth is saying, that the book does not make clear what kind of cousins they are.
The section on Bornier and his La fille de Roland, and how the Duchesse complains about the smell of Bornier...
je n'ai jamais pu me résoudre à l..."
These quotes really show how the Duchesse's malice can veer toward cruelty. Her treatment of the poor footman is so vile.