The Year of Reading Proust discussion
This topic is about
Within a Budding Grove
Within a Budding Grove, vol. 2
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Through Sunday, 3 Mar.: Within a Budding Grove
Aloha wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope, when the narrator mentions A F as an example of an exceptional individual, the notes in the Milly edition say Proust hesitated here between A F and Berg..."Thank you Aloha. Yes, very lucky indeed. My love for books comes from him.
Kalliope wrote: ".When I was growing up my father used to tell us how Anatole France had translated into French some works by the Spanish writer Vicente Blasco Ibañez, and how these translations were the perfect combination of a very stylized language, from someone whose novels were a bit weak on plot, with the plot from a writer who was good as story teller but a bit weak on language."Now I want to read A France's translations of Ibañez too. They must exist somewhere.....
Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: ".When I was growing up my father used to tell us how Anatole France had translated into French some works by the Spanish writer Vicente Blasco Ibañez, and how these translations we..."I have not found them so far. My father had asked us to look for them. Now I am not sure whether he had ever read them or knew about them.
But it would be one of the few cases in which the translation is better than the original.
Fionnuala, the explanation of that telegram given in the notes in your version sounds much more plausible than the one in mine. I hunted around and found zero references to any telegram to Bismarck, but the Kruger telegram brings up a wealth of results.My edition is 'présentée, établie et annotée par Pierre-Louis Rey.'
Karen wrote: "Fionnuala, the explanation of that telegram given in the notes in your version sounds much more plausible than the one in mine. I hunted around and found zero references to any telegram to Bismarck..."Thank you Karen. This helps me in trying to work out which edition to buy again. The one Fionnuala has, -- is it edited and commented entirely by Milly?--, or Karen's -- it seems only partly edited and commented by Compagnon?.. I would like one entire edition handled by the same editor. In the same way that I think that if one has to produce a translation it is better to give the entire work to one single person (not what Penguin has done).
Fionnuala wrote: "Just finished this week's reading. I like that we now have a more reliable chronology (although you never know with Proust), via the visit of the Russian tsar to Paris (Proust's Théodose) in late 1..."yes, I see Swann as reborn - the death of his obsession and birth of (?) love - as seen in "...was there not already in his lifetime...a posthumous happiness in this marriage with Odette whom he had passionately loved..." (p 58 ML) Before seeing this, I had a little cynically put down his transformation to a kind of wilful perversity
Kalliope wrote: "Karen wrote: "Fionnuala, the explanation of that telegram given in the notes in your version sounds much more plausible than the one in mine. I hunted around and found zero references to any telegr..."Karen, Kalliope, I see now that I've been crediting Jean Milly with the very useful notes in my versions of Du côté and A l'ombre but in fact, this GF Flammarion edition from 1987 is only 'réalisée sous la direction de Jean Milly'. The introduction, notes and bibliography of Du côté are by Bernard Brun and Anne Herschberg, and in A l'ombre, by Danièle Gasiglia-Laster.
When I bought these books some years ago, I wanted to buy the complete set, being naively ambitious about reading the complete A la recherche, but I could only find Du coté and A l'ombre (intwo volumes) in the shops here. The other books were in other editions. But I've just looked up Flammarion's catalogue and they do exist so I'll probably stick with this edition. Hope that helps with your choice, Kalliope and glad I could elucidate on the telegram, Karen. Enjoy this coming week's reading!
Marcus, I don't see Swann as reborn so much as having adapted, and in making the best of it, he discovers a certain contentment.
I finished the section last night. This week has been the longest so far. And I think I know why.I read all of A l'ombre des jeubes filles en fleurs for the first time 30 years ago while I was a Peace Corps volunteer in Senegal. I remember buying the volume (a folio edition) at a librairie in Thiès and reading it with great pleasure (especially the second part at Balbec). My least favorite part even then was the dinner with the ambassador, M de Norpois. So, I think this week's chunk was hard for me (even though I know that Norpois will return later in a wonderful way) and when I got back to the Champs Elysées with Gilberte I heaved a great sigh of relief. I feel as if I weathered a tough patch.
And yet, even in the midst of this chunk are the bits on theater and Berma and, of course, those great tidbits of differing perspectives on characters we have come to know in one way and suddenly we see them revealed in surprising new ways. So, even in this week's reading there have been little pleasures.
I am glad to be moving ahead.
Cassian wrote: "I read all of A l'ombre des jeubes filles en fleurs for the first time 30 years ago while I was a..."Is it that same Folio version that you are reading now, Cassian? I ask because I have hardly any books from when I was young because I used to borrow more than buy back then. I would love to have them, needless to say.
As to M. de Norpois, I really enjoyed the section with him and groaned a little when I found we were back on the Champs-Elysées with Gilberte...
Cassian wrote: "I finished the section last night. This week has been the longest so far. And I think I know why.I read all of A l'ombre des jeubes filles en fleurs for the first time 30 years ago while I was a..."
I have a similar experience, though I read Budding Grove last year first the first time. The Balbec sequence was where I fell for MP - I absolutely loved it and the associated hypnotic feelings - what came before, including the Norpois appearance, had left me either baffled or cold. Have to say though this time round, thanks in large part to the work of this group, I enjoyed the Norpois turn, even laughing out loud several times.
Proustitute wrote: "We've been shifting into volume two this week, and one of the recurring comments I've noticed on status updates from those adhering to the Proust 2013 schedule is that the beginning of volume 2 is ..."Growing more accustomed to his style, for sure, and getting to know the narrator as well. I really 'got' him in his response to Berma's Phedre - that desperate desire to understand what the fuss was all about and not getting it but experiencing the audience euphoric response to her performance; appreciating her performance by proxy, really - I so understand that and that shared sentiment helps me to be more comfortable and welcome in his world.
Proustitute wrote: Do you think this is because you've grown more accustomed to Proust's style (I would argue that's likely the case), or is the "content" of Within a Budding Grove more "palatable" than the start of Swann's Way was? I just find the beginning of book two much more straightforward than Swann's Way . There's less shifting of time and consciousness, less "theory" and foundation work.
Proustitute wrote: "We've been shifting into volume two this week, and one of the recurring comments I've noticed on status updates from those adhering to the Proust 2013 schedule is that the beginning of volume 2 is a bit easier going...Do you think this is because you've grown more accustomed to Proust's style...or is it the content...?"I do find that I get into the rhythm of Proust's sentences more quickly and easily now but, all the same, I didn't find the beginning of volume I unpalatable in the least - in fact, I loved the Combray section, in spite of the amount of toing and froing through the narrator's memories.
The discussions in the early weeks of January were very enthusiastic about the book from the beginning, weren't they?
New York was overcast, gray like East Germany, my heart pounding I entered the Morgan; I smiled, hoping they couldn't see the forcedness of it, as I passed the maroon jacketed guards who nodded back to me. I entered the Thaw Gallery where the Proust Cahiers were under-glass and looked around in the dimly lit room feeling like Richard Burton in John le Carré's Spy Who Came In from The Cold. I waited for the guard in the gallery to turn the other way and quickly I snapped photos of the captions in question (careful not to include the cahiers) with my flash-off iPhone knowing that a Minox would have been what Alec Leamas used. I left the gallery, had a double espresso in the cafe and checked to see if I could read the text in the images...yes.
Contentedly I paid, left the Morgan--sighed and smiled naturally at the bare trees aching for Spring--grabbed a taxi on Park Avenue and went uptown to the Frick to see paintings by Piero Della Francesca.
Caption 1:
"...the first duplicate corrected copy of the typescript...the 1909 novel began as follows 'At the time of that morning, whose memory I would like to fix, I was already ill; I would be up all night and went to bed only during the day. However, the time when I would go to bed early and, with a few short interruptions, would sleep until morning, was not that far in the past, and I was still hoping that it could return'"
Caption 2:
"Cahier 19...the last of the exercise books used for Swann in Love...concludes with the dream episode that leads to the famous final sentence of this part of the book: 'To think that...'"
The caption is inconclusive; but that the final sentence begins with a conjunction, "And with the old..." (linking it with what precedes it) indicates to me anyway, along with the quotation marks, that Swann is awake quoting himself from the dream.
Fionnuala wrote: "Cassian wrote: "I read all of A l'ombre des jeubes filles en fleurs for the first time 30 years ago while I was a..."Is it that same Folio version that you are reading now, Cassian? I ask becaus..."
This is why reading this as part of a group is so terrific: the part I resist is the part someone else loves -- and vice versa. Wonderful diversity!
I may still have the Folio copy tucked away in a box in a back room. I am reading the 4-volume Pléiade edition filled with notes and variants too many to take in. But the text is readable and clear. And having all the notes is helpful; the variants I do not have time to consider, but it is kind of fun knowing they are there to consult should I ever be drawn to do so.
Thus far (I'm 20 or so pages behind) I'm finding this first part slower than SW. I was wondering if it's the difference in translator though.
So far I am enjoying those meditative or descriptive parts, or those with historical-conextual content, more than those that advance the story, which in itself is simple.
Proustitute wrote: "We've been shifting into volume two this week, and one of the recurring comments I've noticed on status updates from those adhering to the Proust 2013 schedule is that the beginning of volume 2 is ..."
I think it is easier going and in large part to being accustomed to the style of Proust. But also, the beginning parts of Within a Budding Grove are heavily dialogue and I think Proust handles dialogue masterfully and it is "easier" to read through than say, the metaphoric descriptions of the cathedral.
I think it is easier going and in large part to being accustomed to the style of Proust. But also, the beginning parts of Within a Budding Grove are heavily dialogue and I think Proust handles dialogue masterfully and it is "easier" to read through than say, the metaphoric descriptions of the cathedral.
Eugene wrote: "New York was overcast, gray like East Germany, my heart pounding I entered the Morgan; I smiled, hoping they couldn't see the forcedness of it, as I passed the maroon jacketed guards who nodded bac..."Eugene, I enjoyed your account of your mission to the Morgan. You made it so vivid that we could imagine walking with you past the maroon-jacket guards and my heart even skipped a beat as the guard turned the other way and you took the photos.
Do you have photos of the Cahiers in French? I'd love to read Caption 1 in French. As to Caption 2, I still can't understand it any other way but as Swann being fully awake and fully, exceptionally aware.
Fionnuala wrote: "Proustitute wrote: "We've been shifting into volume two this week, and one of the recurring comments I've noticed on status updates from those adhering to the Proust 2013 schedule is that the begin..."I too loved the Combray section and I actually miss the lyricism and the abiding tone of melancholy that seemed to me to pervade the Overture.
Will wrote: "Thus far (I'm 20 or so pages behind) I'm finding this first part slower than SW. I was wondering if it's the difference in translator though."I did not feel swept into Within a Budding Grove either as I did in Swann's Way, but after a while I got used to it. I don't know if it is a translation issue, because I had read the first two tomes in French a while ago, and I remember that the first one had a stronger pull.
Fionnaulla wrote: "Do you have photos of the Cahiers in French? I'd love to read Caption 1 in French..."Sorry, no photos of the Cahiers in French; Maybe there is another reading that has the earlier 1st line in French but I don't of know it and there is no credit of who did the translation in the caption; perhaps emailing the Morgan could get you his or her name as there must a French original from which it was translated,
Fionnuala wrote: "Do you have photos of the Cahiers in French"
Fionnuala, I posted two photos in the photo section of Proust's cahiers that I found on twitter. I'm afraid, they're not very clear, but do have a look.
Eugene wrote: "New York was overcast, gray like East Germany, my heart pounding I entered the Morgan; I smiled, hoping they couldn't see the forcedness of it, as I passed the maroon jacketed guards who nodded bac..."Thank you very much for this insight Eugene, and for the very visual and dramatic description of your mission!
For the first sentence I will have to look at the French version that I think Marcelita has found in a link somewhere, but it is certainly very different from what became the definite version. The latter has so much more impact.
As for the ending of Swann, I am with Fionnuala in that, although the sentence is in inverted commas, for me the preceding sentence has clearly pulled him out of the dream state (... dès qu'il n'était plus malheureux).
I will now check the Frick's site for the Piero.... How lucky that you could visit this also..!!
ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: "Do you have photos of the Cahiers in French"
Fionnuala, I posted two photos in the photo section of Proust's cahiers that I found on twitter. I'm afraid, they're not very clear,..."
Thank you for posting those photos, Reem. It's great to see what the cahiers looked like even if we can't read them. And I love that he doodled/drew things alongside his writing. So many of us do that. It makes him even more real to me...
Kalliope wrote: "...for me the preceding sentence has clearly pulled him out of the dream state (... dès qu'il n'était plus malheureux)."But it is not "the preceding sentence" that has "... dès qu'il n'était plus malheureux.", it is the same sentence that contains the famous final quote. There is a colon, not a period; it is not a full stop and you are correct, he is not in the "dream state" (hence Proust's quotes); the actual previous sentence, Swann being awake, the text says: "...he thought once again of his dream..." I put in a ":" to show you that, as Proust uses it is, it is not a full stop.
As Krishna says advancing to a certain death, "Not farewell, but fair forward..."
Eugene, I have posted this link elsewhere.
You will love both of these treasures....promise.
http://expositions.bnf.fr/proust/albu...
Also, if you email me, I will send you my phone's low-quality video(s) of Antoine discussing "the first sentence," from last evening's lecture at The Morgan. I only risked taping, because we discussed its evolution over coffee.
AC was rushed for time and raced through several stages.
Marcelita wrote: "Also, if you email me..."I will email you when we're finished with sheep shearing, Day 3: 3 shearers, 5 wool handlers but only a skeleton crew of 3 tomorrow. The shorn Saxon Merino sheep look good, the wool looks better...
Proustitute wrote: "We've been shifting into volume two this week, and one of the recurring comments I've noticed on status updates from those adhering to the Proust 2013 schedule is that the beginning of volume 2 is ..."A growing familiarity with Proust has informed my reading of the 2nd volume. I've not found myself compelled to reread as I did with Swann's Way. I've also now folded the reading schedule into my life...pacing myself for the year.
Proust's wrapping and layering and building and revisiting...scattering seeds...telescoping in and out...has created its own rhythm that I move in and out of more readily.
A few days ago I put down Within a Budding Grove and thought of a video of the making of croissants I'd seen years ago. Layer upon layer of dough and butter, folded over itself, again and again, seemingly endless, patiently and meticulously with only the finest ingredients...if the intention was to make a stunning delicious delicately layered nourishing croissant. That is how this 2nd volume is for me...so far...if that makes sense. I'm nearly finished with the 2nd section.
What a wonderful metaphor. I also find that it is better for me to immerse myself in it rather than divide my reading time/attention between several books, as a I usually do.
Cheryl wrote: "Proustitute wrote: "We've been shifting into volume two this week, and one of the recurring comments I've noticed on status updates from those adhering to the Proust 2013 schedule is that the begin..."Exactly...also like a gâteau de mille-feuilles and equally addictive.
Marcelita wrote: "Cheryl wrote: "Proustitute wrote: "We've been shifting into volume two this week, and one of the recurring comments I've noticed on status updates from those adhering to the Proust 2013 schedule is..."Yummm...another fitting metaphor
Marcelita wrote: "...You will love both of these treasures....promise.http://expositions.bnf.fr/proust/albu...
...I will send you my phone's low-quality video(s) of Antoine discussing "the first sentence," from last evening's lecture at The Morgan."
Marcelita, I looked at the Album of Proust's Gallery Proofs from the link you posted, wonderful! Thank you, so informative about how he worked
Do you have Antoine Compagnon's email address? I think he's at Columbia University. I'm sure he's too busy to answer me but all the same I would feel derelict if I didn't ask him for his view about the ending of Un Amour de Swann.
I'll email you privately now for your kind offer but I wanted to make my intentions public.
Eugene wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "...You will love both of these treasures....promise.http://expositions.bnf.fr/proust/albu...
...I will send you my phone's low-quality video(s) of Antoine discussing "the first ..."
Try this....for Antoine Compagnon. (I wonder who gave him his middle name.)
Antoine Marcel Compagnon
Title:Blanche W. Knopf Professor of French and Comparative Literature
E-mail: amc6@columbia.edu
Phone: +1 212 854 5528
"French cuisine made by Chef Earl and Tom from Marcel Proust's In Search of Lost Time (In the Shadow of Young Girls in Flower). With French cooking method in late 19th and early 20th century, Earl and Tom adapted modern day cooking method and modified some recipes to meet with the concepts from Proust's time. We are truly fortunate to have tasted the amazing dishes and are impressed by the hosts' passions about cooking." YouTube site Introduction and...
Dinner with Norpois (I): Boeuf Mode en Gelée
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwUQ_w...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krL5KK...
Dinner with Norpois (II): Performative Pineapple-and-Truffle Salad
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im_Alu...
Dinner with Norpois (III): Made-In-New York Ham
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOusRj...
Dinner with Norpois (IV): Nesselrode Pudding
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQmnpq...
A subscriber to Bill Carter's online course wondered if Proust chose the name of the gourmand Norpois, because it reminds one of a whale-like creature; French pourpois (old French porpais).
Marcelita wrote: "Try this....for Antoine Compagnon. (I wonder who gave him his middle name.)":-) Thanks
Kalliope wrote: "So glad to see you back on the discussion threads Fionnuala....!!!!I agree with you in that a great deal of the criticism of Bergotte could have been made on Proust himself but I kept seeing in h..."
The odd part about the way Proust sours on Anatole France is that Anatole was larglely responsible for getting Proust, earlier short story, On Pleasure and Days published. In fact, Anatole wrote the Introduction about this "young, fresh author."
Greetings everyone,I am really behind... I finished Swann's Way-- both the Lydia Davis version and the Moncrief (ML) version. I felt I needed to see the difference as I read that Moncrief was more highbrow, but that Lydia Davis's version was potentially more accurate.
I am reading the James Grieve version of ISOLT but only on page 10... lots of catching up to do before I can really contribute to the discussion.
John
Eugene, what is it about the ending of Swann you're going to email M. Compagnon?
Nick wrote: "...what is it about the ending of Swann you're going to email M. Companion?"I want his view on the last sentence of Un Amour de Swann; does Swann quote himself from the dream, from a time earlier or does Proust insert them simply for emphasis. Read it again and tell me what you think.
I'm not as sure about the quotation marks as I was before, about why they're there. Proust is so indeterminate, albeit loquacious. I'm thinking now that it's part of a planned indeterminacy. That last sentence sounds paranoid ;-)
How are you, when do you come to New York?
Eugene wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "...for me the preceding sentence has clearly pulled him out of the dream state (... dès qu'il n'était plus malheureux)."But it is not "the preceding sentence" that has "... dès q..."
Eugene,
Yes, sorry, it is not a sentence because there is no full stop, but a colon, but it is still is a complete utterance. There could be a full stop after "moralité" without changing its meaning. And the words just before the closing sentence, framed by inverted commas, is: "is s'écria en lui même", which I would translate something like "he said/exclaimed to himself".
I still feel very comfortable with my understanding that he is fully awake when he utters the sentence, and has been awake for an hour, even if he is remembering some aspects of his dream.
Kalliope wrote: I still feel very comfortable with my understanding that he is fully awake when he utters the sentence, and has been awake for an hour, even if he is remembering some aspects of his dream.Then we agree, as I have always maintained: "he is fully awake when he utters the sentence, and has been awake for an hour, even if he is remembering some aspects of his dream." but we disagree in that I say, and always have said, the quotes indicate he quotes himself (in the present) from the dream (in the past) and you say...otherwise? I won't put words in your mouth.
But my current thinking, and I may be wrong (I love being wrong, I'd rather be wrong and admit it than be right [meaning I learned something]) is that Proust means it both ways: 1.) as I've maintained in this thread: awake, Swann quotes himself from the dream and 2.) as I originally read it: the quotation marks surround a summation of the feelings he first had for Odette.
Lets see what others have to say on this subject...
Finally, I value your thoughts on Proust as well as those of Fionnuala's, you make the discussions enjoyable.
Eugene wrote: "Kalliope wrote: I still feel very comfortable with my understanding that he is fully awake when he utters the sentence, and has been awake for an hour, even if he is remembering some aspects of his..."Yes, what I understand is that he is not quoting himself from the dream and from the past, but that he is uttering the final quote when he is awake and as he is awake. This realization however is the result of remembering the dream in which the Odette from the pre-obsession phase appears to him. This unmediated Odette encountered in the dream helps him realize, at that moment, that he has fallen in love with someone who does not suit him. For me, he says this on the spot as he realizes it..and in a sort of sudden manner, like another epiphany (hence "s'écrier" instead of simply "se dire").
Eugene, I also enjoy your comments.. very perceptive and challenging. Our aim in the Group is for a better and more careful reading of Proust. He deserves it...!!
I'd agree with Kalliope on this one, he exclaims it to himself with the force of revelation. Either out loud or "to himself" or internally.
Thanks for your kind comments, Eugene. We are all motivating each other beautifully towards a more careful reading of Proust as Kalliope says.
Indeed, and if not more careful then certainly deeper and closer! I'd like to welcome John to the group too. Reading Swann's Way twice isn't something most people accomplish in a lifetime let alone 2 months!
Nick wrote: "Indeed, and if not more careful then certainly deeper and closer! I'd like to welcome John to the group too. Reading Swann's Way twice isn't something most people accomplish in a lifetime let alo..."
Ah, where is John?.. will look for him...
John wrote: "Greetings everyone,I am really behind... I finished Swann's Way-- both the Lydia Davis version and the Moncrief (ML) version. I felt I needed to see the difference as I read that Moncrief was mor..."
Welcome to the group... Let us know by posting when you are on a similar pace to the rest..!!
The Year of Reading Proust
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Very interesting, Kalliope. How lucky are you to have such a well-read father.