The Year of Reading Proust discussion
This topic is about
Within a Budding Grove
Within a Budding Grove, vol. 2
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Through Sunday, 10 Mar.: Within a Budding Grove
Karen wrote: "?...."Tiens, ca a l'air bon ce que vous mangez là, cela me donne du faim de vous voir manger du cake"...Where I live, the local pâtisserie has one particular product which resembles a plain butter and egg sponge and which they call a 'cake', and which they pronounce as 'kek'. If I make the mistake of referring to it as a 'gâteau',(every other cake in the shop is called a gâteau) they correct me every time. It's a bit ironic...
Fionnuala wrote: "Karen wrote: "?...."Tiens, ca a l'air bon ce que vous mangez là, cela me donne du faim de vous voir manger du cake"...Where I live, the local pâtisserie has one particular product which resembles..."
You should call this pâtisserie chez Odette.
Hoop-la! Thanks, Jason.And another thought on the Swann's change of heart. Remember Mamma's recounting her conversation with Swann, when she ran into him accidentally? It's already been posted here, and if you try to see it from Swann's point of view--he ran into her, and she was very friendly to him. That also might have helped.
Karen wrote: "Oh wow! Well done. You'll have to let me know how you did that. And can you do accents circonflexes too?"Diacritical Marks (insert appropriate letter in the space shown):
grave accent (ù): &_grave;
acute accent (é): &_acute;
circumflex (î): &_circ;
umlaut (ö): &_uml;
tilde (ñ): &_tilde;
cedilla (ç): &_cedil;
ring (Å): &_ring;
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...
I've just finished this week's reading and have taken the time to look at the posts: Kall, thanks for posting that tremendous link to the Museo Thyssen-Bornemisza - that virtual tour is utterly stunning. (And I had to go and find out who Baron Gábor Bornemisza de Kászon et Impérfalva was)
Karen wrote: "I've just finished this week's reading and have taken the time to look at the posts: Kall, thanks for posting that tremendous link to the Museo Thyssen-Bornemisza - that virtual tour is utterly stu..."I am glad you liked it.. yes, the virtual tour, with no people, is quite a treat.... Room 4 (deeper in section) was fabulous, with all those Roman history paintings that became an inspiration for Hollywood.
Gérôme is a fascinating painter though many people do not like him.
The Thyssen is very well run. They are very active and creative. I am a Member and go regularly.
Kalliope wrote: "you should call this pâtisserie chez Odette.""Deux madeleines et une odette, s'il vous plaît, Madame."
Total incomprehension, no doubt.
Hoop-la!
*blushing with embarrassment* Thank you kindly Jason, I deleted that silly remark of mine, as minimal research of my own made me realise that I could have been writing Françoise and tantôt all the time with no great effort. *hangs head in shame*
Fionnuala, Yes, and may be also a "ninivite au chocolat".
Kalliope wrote: "Fionnuala, Yes, and may be also a "ninivite au chocolat"."
That would be a treat, un vrai régal!
Elizabeth wrote: "...and Gilberte tells the Narrator..."You know, they can't bear you!" But the next thing we know, he's going to tea at her house, and her parents seem to like him a lot. I can find nothing in the text to account for this; which is why I'm asking: any thoughts/imaginings/fantasies re this?" All this (communication about her parents) comes from Gilberte (do we trust her as a character?): The narrator gives Gilberte the letter for Swann, did she show it to him, were not sure (I suspect not) and the staement "...they can't bear you", the letter that invites him to a tea party, then the explanation to him that the Swanns now like him because of his governess, all this comes from Gilberte.
Gilberte here is an unsubstantiated (some might say, unreliable) character, she may be lying (as Swann liked the boy in Combray, gave him gifts of art, spent time with him, opened to him on Bergotte, etc.), we're not sure.
But these events and others that follow in the chez Swann sequence: the not knowing, the ambiguity of narration, the 'day dreaming', etc., set up a master stroke by Proust; here he shows us what makes him, as some say the greatest writer of the 20th century, an artist, and how like the master he is makes new art.
I wait, as I must read the Chez Swann passage again on Sunday then confide my impressions here about Proust and this passage. This was a short reading week for me, beginning in earnest yesterday; tomorrow I'm in New York for the day (not a day that I can read or write except on Twitter ;-) and I will go to the Met to see French Painting From The Wheelock Whitney Collection.
Le Dimanche...
Richard wrote: "Has someone already posted a link to the blog where they try to recreate the cake in question?"
There are five short videos of "French cuisine made by Chef Earl and Tom from Marcel Proust's 'In Search of Lost Time,' recreating the Norpois dinner.
I will post on Week 1.
Kalliope wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Scribble wrote: "Fionnuala, I agree that it means inhabitant of Niniveh,I think you have the right of it, thoug..."
To add a bit of extra color and drama to the already colorful ..."
This picture looks like lots of fun.No blood spilled and veryone making love not war.
Kalliope wrote: "I enjoyed the passage with the princesse Mathilde.The wiki is good.
English version:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathilde...
Cool dress.
French version is longer:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mat..."
Patricia wrote: "This picture looks like lots of fun.No blood spilled and veryone making love not war. ..."Not really. This is not an easy painting to look at, and the reproduction is small. But there is violence depicted. The women are slaves and most of the people in the scene are about to die.
There is a good article on this painting in The Independent.
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ent...
Richard wrote: "Has someone already posted a link to the blog where they try to recreate the cake in question?"
Yam yam, Richard... I like the way the strawberries are planted on top.
Hey! I´m possessed by some dark entity,I didn´t post those two wiki links! I jst mentioned Mathilde had a cool dress.Beware fellow forumites!
I anlayzed Gilberte´s signature, as described by the Narrator, through a graphology site:I: without a dot,ABSENTMINDNESS
T: crossed at the top, A PERSON WHO SETS VERY HIGH GOALS
G: with large flourishes-or any other part of the signature-,NARCISSTIC TENDENCIES.
I know my data is not very scientific but I think it coincides with Gilberte´s character.
Inserting words in English are in Argentina a sure proof someone is a snob.I enjoyed how Gilberte described Albertine as "fast" that is a word young girls use a lot when speaking among themselves about others.A generation ago it was French.
Such phrases as "part of those people ONE DOESN´T VISIT TOO MUCH" are also a must for snobs here,though in Spanish.
I wonder how much of that snob was really Proust,he is so attentive to those details like picturing Mmes. Cottard and Trombard as social-climbers and giving a free pass to Lady Rufus Israels comparing her to the Rothschilds so they were "O.K.".Well, in my country I´ve heard the likes of Prousts with *all due respect*(i)saying the same about the Baron Hirsch.
(i) writer Manuel Mujica Lainez,excellent writer,Proust fan and terrible snob.
Re-reading this I am ashamed to see I have snobbishness in me much as I hate it¨~¨
Richard wrote: "Has someone already posted a link to the blog where they try to recreate the cake in question?"
DELICIOUS!and now to my yogurt cum fruit lunch and my Herbalife shake,but tonight...dinner at a very small French restaurant in my *barrio*.Should any of you come downsouth -or upsouth- I´ll invite you there.
Eugene wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "...and Gilberte tells the Narrator..."You know, they can't bear you!" But the next thing we know, he's going to tea at her house, and her parents seem to like him a lot. I can fin..."There is a gem of a clue to Gilberte's character in the final pages of this week's reading - the question of attending a matinee which is on the anniversary of her grandfather's death. Her father makes his wish that she honor that day clear...Odette attempts to restrain Gilberte as well. The narrator is stunned that Gilberte blithely chooses to attend the matinee...and knowingly hurt her father.
I felt these few paragraphs brought into focus the probability of Gilberte's manipulation of the narrator...keeping him off balance...and her role in confusing his relationship with her family.
I have found those episodes of clarity scattered throughout...it's almost a respite...just a few moments of clarifying breath...before embarking on another complex riff.
There seems to be a place, a space - a time (in his mind) perhaps - where the narrrator is, simply speaking, just plain happy. And that that place is accessed through memory.Of course, that time is not in the torment of his feelings for Gilberte. By contrast, the place to which he was transported by the musty smell of the green trellised pavilion [88 ML] was "solid and consistent", supportive, "delicious, soothing, rich with a truth that was lasting, unexplained and sure".
A few pages later he realises the smell reminded him of his uncle Adolphe's sitting room, though he "postponed till later the attempt to discover why the recollection of so trivial an impression had filled me with such happiness." [91]
I am curious about the link between this train of thought and his reflections on how he got to know the Vinteuil sonata through successive listenings, which (his reflections) yield the following insight: "what is wanting, the first time, in not comprehension but memory" [140].
So, joining the dots, the happiness linked to his time in uncle Adolphe's sitting room - and brought to his mind involuntarily by the musty smell - is found in his memory of that time.
But the pleasure is not from just a simple, factual re-collection, it's from the gradual comprehension, with the benefit of time and through successive visits (conscious and unconscious) to the images of that past event, which are stored in the memory - like pictures in an art collection (interesting that memory is a re-collection) - of the 'art' of that moment in time.
Am I the only one struggling with the Moncrieff /Kilmartin/Enright translation???? The joy seems to have been taken out of reading Proust's sentences. I can't catch on to any rhythm. I tried to read it aloud to see if I could hear one that I couldn't hear in my head, but no luck! :( This has made for slow reading, and I was only able to finish this week's section today. I even avoided this thread so I wouldn't come across any spoilers or commentary that might take away from any reading pleasure.
Phillida wrote:" Why not try the original Moncrieff, or the Grieve? Grieve is much criticized, but I liked it. "
Thanks for the suggestion Phillida, but I'll try to stick it out with everyone else. It's actually quite funny. I'm just beginning the next section, and Proust writes about Bergotte, the rhythm of his words and about the metrical whole of the sentence, and I'm thinking what would Proust make of this translation of his words. I just keep thinking Proustitute promised that it would get better. The content is interesting, so I continue reading.
THank you for pointing that, Marcus. The happiness seems indeed to stem, not from a factual re-collection, but from a memory, or rather a succession of edits to that memory. 'Comprehension' could also be replaced by 'distortion', I suppose.
ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "Am I the only one struggling with the Moncrieff /Kilmartin/Enright translation???? The joy seems to have been taken out of reading Proust's sentences. I can't catch on to any rhythm. I tried to rea..."I did not read the Davis translation of Swann's Way. I had the Modern Library boxed set in hand so I read the Moncrieff translation of SW. Consequently I am not managing a shift in translation. However I am finding a difference with Within a Budding Grove. It's not just reading as Volume II, a continuation of Volume I. It is standing alone as a novel with its own tone & tenor. Rather than the poetic riffs of Swann's Way, the sonata, the music that were in some ways ecstatic and transportive it has so far been more informative in a building block and mortar sort of way...laying a foundation for who and what has been and what, I assume, is to come. Swann's Way felt like an immersion in a universe both familiar and unfamiliar in its minute explorations. Within a Budding Grove has both my feet firmly planted on earthy familiar ground...so far.
As I was reading this morning I recalled that this was the book that was awarded the Goncourt Prize, independent of Swann's Way. I am curious to finish and compare the two.
Is Within a Budding Grove reading differently to those of us who are reading ISOLT in French?
Cheryl wrote: "ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "Am I the only one struggling with the Moncrieff /Kilmartin/Enright translation???? The joy seems to have been taken out of reading Proust's sentences. I can't catch on..."Cheryl,
I have not found a difference in the second volume. I am also listening to an audio version, which is read by several actors. What is interesting is that they changed reader in the third section of the first volume, and this second reader has continued with the second volume, so I felt a continuity.
Cheryl wrote:"Is Within a Budding Grove reading differently to those of us who are reading ISOLT in French?"Personally, I miss the descriptions of places which we found in the Combray and the Nom de Pays sections. I also liked all of the scenes with the Narrator's family in Du côté de chez Swann.
Are some of these differences because the Narrator is now older and sees things more like an adult would? Is that why I'm liking it just a little less?
Fionnuala wrote: "Cheryl wrote:"Is Within a Budding Grove reading differently to those of us who are reading ISOLT in French?"Personally, I miss the descriptions of places which we found in the Combray and the Nom..."
Actually, I find this also. When I say I have not detected a difference in the second volume, I mean in the way of writing, but I also prefer the descriptions to the plot. But that was the case with Un amour de Swann also... So the difference for me is not so much between the two vols but between sections.
In the Autour Mme Swann there are some parts which are more abstract and which I also prefer to those devoted to the story.
That's it Kalliope. In a way, this present book is like a continuation of Un amour de Swann.
Marcus wrote: "There seems to be a place, a space - a time (in his mind) perhaps - where the narrrator is, simply speaking, just plain happy. And that that place is accessed through memory.Of course, that time ..."
I think that smell is the first of all the senses to develop and the most *primitive*so memories just jump on us,like the perfume of freshly mown lawn in my case or magnolias or eucalyptus.Music is more refined so it has to be sometimes heard several times and then it´s a trip alright.
What struck me Friday--I put the book down and gasped; I didn't even see the 16" of snow outside--reading the sequence about chez Swann, the outings with Odette, Gilberte, etc. was Proust's indeterminacy. I'm primarily a reader of non fiction, who occasionally interrupts himself by reading fiction by recent loves: Virginia Woolf, James Joyce, Phillip Roth and several others, and as far as I know no other writer before him (if I'm wrong please correct me) has used as many words as Proust has used to be so non specific in his details, to create 'unreliable' characters, e.g., among many, Gilberte, to eliminate Balzacian pointers to changes of narration and of situation, to distinguish dreams and day dreams and wishful thinking from the 'reality' established by the story told.
My impression, to use his word for encountering a work of art shared with Ruskin (see the preface to La Bible D'Amiens), is that his style is indeterminacy. When it hit me, book in my lap, snow outside, New York coming, I realized that Marcel Proust was in the same room as I, not as a character, but as the writer, as real as if he'd smiled and winked at me. Oddly, I felt more at home.
For me, the key to my impressionistic revelation came to light from the Narrator's relationship to another character, you'll soon meet in Volume II, and how, for lack of better words, 'wishful thinking' that behavior was for the yet to be accomplished boy Narrator as is Odette's almost fawning behavior (described by the day dreaming boy, as I think) toward him chez Swann in the March 10th reading.
Kalliope wrote: I have not found a difference in the second volume. I am also listening to an audio version, which is read by several actors. What is interesting is that they changed reader in the third section of the first volume, and this second reader has continued with the second volume, so I felt a continuity."Kalliope, I remember that you posted that the actor changed somewhere in Swann's Way and continued into Vol 2. Interesting choice. Of course in listening there is not the closing of one book and opening of another...which in itself suggests a separate event...an ending and another beginning.
So perhaps there was a shift earlier...maybe in the places name & the name - part 3 of Swann's Way. Is that where a different actor began reading?
ReemK10 wrote: "Am I the only one struggling with the Moncrieff /Kilmartin/Enright translation????"It got easier for me with time.
Eugene wrote:"It got easier for me with time."I've become a spoiled reader. I want the bliss all the time! #Reem's Davis-inspired Proust addiction.
Cheryl wrote: "Kalliope wrote: I have not found a difference in the second volume. I am also listening to an audio version, which is read by several actors. What is interesting is that they changed reader in the ..."Yes, I repeated this... it was harder trying to find where/when I put it, and I cannot assume that everyone can catch all posts.
The change in reader is for the Noms de Pays and last sectiion of the first volume, that is, when the story of Gilberte begins. Fionnuala said that in her French edition (edited by Milly) it says that the break between the two volumes was originally going to be there, but that it was the editor Grasset who insisted otherwise.
Yes, originally, Nom de Pays: Le Nom, Autour de Mme Swann and Nom de Pays: Le Pays were intended to form a triptyque but the editor at the time, Grasset, felt the triptyque was too unwieldy and placed Nom de Pays: Le Nom in the first volume with Combray and Un Amour de Swann.
Fionnuala wrote: "Yes, originally, Nom de Pays: Le Nom, Autour de Mme Swann and Nom de Pays: Le Pays were intended to form a triptyque but the editor at the time, Grasset, felt the triptyque was too unwieldy and pla..."Thank you, the triptych format makes a lot of sense... another Medieval art reference...!
Kalliope wrote: The change in reader is for the Noms de Pays and last sectiion of the first volume, that is, when the story of Gilberte begins. Fionnuala said that in her French edition (edited by Milly) it says that the break between the two volumes was originally going to be there, but that it was the editor Grasset who insisted otherwise. "Thank you Kalliope & Fionnuala. I think. ;-) Now a part of me wants to go back and read from Gilberte in Swann's Way.
I was having trouble picturing what crepe de chine looked like draped on Odette so I turned to a search on Etsy. (Pinterest had too many distracting models and stuff.)
Richard wrote: "I was having trouble picturing what crepe de chine looked like draped on Odette so I turned to a search on Etsy. (Pinterest had too many distracting models and stuff.)"Ah!, crêpe de Chine is very elegant, it has a special way of "hanging"; it falls and moves very nicely.
Kalliope wrote: "Richard wrote: "I was having trouble picturing what crepe de chine looked like draped on Odette so I turned to a search on Etsy. (Pinterest had too many distracting models and stuff.)"Ah!, crêpe..."
I agree the real one is as beautiful as the nylon one is hideous.
Is there a simple reason they made only dressing gowns out of it and not everyday wear?
Richard wrote: "Is there a simple reason they made only dressing gowns out of it and not everyday wear?"No idea. For that we would need a historian on costume.
Found this book.
Fashion and Women's Attitudes in the Nineteenth Century
Maybe it's not hard wearing enough, or that being "chine" and indicative of the Japonisme fashionable around the time, they decided to wear it as nightgown/dressing gown. Must feel nice close to the skin. Maybe too they thought it a little indecent or unfashionable if worn as evening or party attire.
Kalliope wrote: "Karen wrote: "I wonder what the English translation does with Odette's rather precious use of Anglicisms? Her 'at homes' coincide with Gilberte's teas, and she pops in to find them demolishing the ...
Yes, I was wondering about this too, Odette's "anglicismes"...
It is like reading Tolstoy in French, the parts which are originally in French do not stand out."
I find that very interesting.
Yes, I was wondering about this too, Odette's "anglicismes"...
It is like reading Tolstoy in French, the parts which are originally in French do not stand out."
I find that very interesting.
Eugene wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "...and Gilberte tells the Narrator..."You know, they can't bear you!" But the next thing we know, he's going to tea at her house, and her parents seem to like him a lot. I can fin..."
This is what I was wondering, Eugene. If, in fact, Gilberte was telling the Narrator that her parents didn't care for him when in fact they may have had very little thoughts on him at all until he started becoming a regular guest at their house. It is very easy to fall into the trap of believing everything the Narrator conveys even when he himself cannot be sure of the information. On the other hand, there are plenty of times where he refers to the future so maybe he is able to verify the truth of this prior to writing.
Two things from this week's section that I am surprised have not been mentioned:
1) That Swann has a mistress.
2) That Mme de Cambremer (according to Odette) had a thing for Swann. Might there be something that Odette does not know about when he left Paris or even in the present time? Of course, I still have 20 pages to go in this section so I am not sure if this comes up again.
This is what I was wondering, Eugene. If, in fact, Gilberte was telling the Narrator that her parents didn't care for him when in fact they may have had very little thoughts on him at all until he started becoming a regular guest at their house. It is very easy to fall into the trap of believing everything the Narrator conveys even when he himself cannot be sure of the information. On the other hand, there are plenty of times where he refers to the future so maybe he is able to verify the truth of this prior to writing.
Two things from this week's section that I am surprised have not been mentioned:
1) That Swann has a mistress.
2) That Mme de Cambremer (according to Odette) had a thing for Swann. Might there be something that Odette does not know about when he left Paris or even in the present time? Of course, I still have 20 pages to go in this section so I am not sure if this comes up again.
Yes, I was wondering about this too, Odette's "anglicismes"...
It is like reading Tolstoy in French, the parts which are originally in French do not stand out.