The Year of Reading Proust discussion
This topic is about
Within a Budding Grove
Within a Budding Grove, vol. 2
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Through Sunday, 31 Mar.: Within a Budding Grove
Yes, it's the same word in French with the same meaning.ici ces collines de la mer qui, avant de revenir vers nous en dansant, peuvent reculer si loin que souvent ce n'était qu'après une longue plaine sablonneuse que j'apercevais à une grande distance leurs premières ondulations, dans un lointain transparent, vaporeux et bleuâtre comme ces glaciers qu'on voit au fond des tableaux des primitifs toscans.
The painters of that time did love their precious ultramarine pigment made from ground lapis lazuli. I found lots of pictures set in the Holy Land and the Mediterranean where glaciers are uncommon.
Richard wrote: "...only here it was those hills of the sea which, before they come dancing back towards us, are apt to retire so far that often it was only at the end of a long and sandy plain that I would disting..."Richard, I was also struck by the "glaciers" mentioned. I do not recall having ever seen any glaciers depicted in the Italian primitives, but I thought of some weird rock formations normally found in the smaller scenes in the predella of an altarpiece. These often show scenes from the lives of saints and set in landscapes. I have not been able to find a good sample either.
Marcelita wrote: "Richard wrote: "...only here it was those hills of the sea which, before they come dancing back towards us, are apt to retire so far that often it was only at the end of a long and sandy plain that..."Was posting the original but then saw that Richard also did, so deleted mine. Thank you Richard.
Marcus wrote: "Wondering about a link between dining room descriptions of the various characters and cliques in the Grand Hotel and those in dining room of the sanitorium Hans Castorp goes to in Mann's Magic Moun..."I agree and I think the link is not only that both MM and ISOLT´s vol II are both novels about young men growing up -they have a special name in English,i can´t remember ,please remind me-(*) but both novels share the "durée" style i.e. when things are remembered as a *trip* suddenly outside *normal* time.
Remember Hans Castorp´s getting lost in the snow storm,classic durée experience.Since then most modern writers have been using this trick as much as the´ve been using internal monologues.
MM is my all time best loved novel as Mann is my Author Excelsis.
(*) maybe "novels of initiation"?
Kalliope wrote: "Patricia wrote: "More Faber-Castells-N°2=HB-pencil scribbled on the margin of the Budding Girls text:Sorry Kall,i find it difficult to follow the thread becaus I´m reading from a Barcelonian edition in Spanish the only MP i could get in these back waters.
I don´t know how to move a post somewhere else,could you do it for me or teach me how.
Thank you .
I think i am going too fast! but i love the book.
Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Richard wrote: "Alas, that wind from the sea; an hour later, in the great dining-room — while we were having our luncheon, and from the leathern gourd of a lemon were sprinkling a ..."Oh, this is so great! Thanks a bunch.
Patricia wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Patricia wrote: "More Faber-Castells-N°2=HB-pencil scribbled on the margin of the Budding Girls text:Sorry Kall,i find it difficult to follow the thread becaus I´m reading from a..."
Patricia, I think your comment belongs to the reading in week 3 of this volume.. That is the one with the date March 17th. I suggest you just copy this comment in that thread and delete this one.
Sorry, I cannot help you with the pagination, since I do not have an edition in Spanish. But as the sections have been made roughly based on length, I suggest you calculate your divisions based on the number of pages of your volume divided by the number of weeks devoted to each volume, so that you have at least a rough guideline. In my French edition each week tends to be about 70 pages per week.
¡Buena suerte!
Richard wrote: "Yes, it's the same word in French with the same meaning.ici ces collines de la mer qui, avant de revenir vers nous en dansant, peuvent reculer si loin que souvent ce n'était qu'après une longue pl..."
I found these, but I am not knowledgable to know if these are even considered "Tuscan Primitives."
http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-o...
http://www.domenico-ghirlandaio.org/N...
http://www.casasantapia.com/art/masac...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Mas...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dis...
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-9cOyVfl1ujA...
Similarly to the way Ruskin was mentioned in last week's selection,-- first alluding to him and identifying him later on--, in this section the Narrator does something similar.When Mme de Villeparisis tells the Narrator and the grandmother news about the father who is traveling with M. de Norpois, she says "Mais il a envie de consacrer un jour de plus à Tolède, car il est admirateur d'un élève de Titien dont je ne me rappelle pas le nom et qu'on ne voit bien que là".
And a bit later says: ".. les contingences que le forçaient à revenir, ses ennuis de douane, son goût pour le Greco,..".
El Greco is the pupil of Titian and he is referring to this one particular painting, which is his most famous, and which still stands in the Chapel for which it was commissioned since the late sixteenth century, and which never leaves its site. The painting is The Burial of the Count of Orgaz (El entierro del Conde de Orgaz).
People travel to Toledo expressly to see this painting, and there is always a long line. In the town one can also visit El Greco's house.
And a detail of the lower part, which is composed of portraits of contemporary noblemen, and has El Greco's son is the child on the left looking out to the viewer. One of them may be Cervantes.
This painting is, surprisingly, not included by Kerpeles in his book.
Marcelita wrote: "Richard wrote: "Yes, it's the same word in French with the same meaning.ici ces collines de la mer qui, avant de revenir vers nous en dansant, peuvent reculer si loin que souvent ce n'était qu'apr..."
These are all lovely Italian Renaissance paintings, but the Primitives are from a somewhat earlier age, 14th vs 15th century.
Duccio or Giotto, as Richard says, would be probable painters (Florence school). I found this one by Simone Martini, one of my favorites (Sienna school), which does have one of those funny rocks that seem cut out from ice.
Kalliope wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Richard wrote: "Yes, it's the same word in French with the same meaning.ici ces collines de la mer qui, avant de revenir vers nous en dansant, peuvent reculer si loin que souvent..."
Ah, I see/understand, thank you. I had been looking for "bluish" and ignorant of the time-line.
Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Richard wrote: "Yes, it's the same word in French with the same meaning.ici ces collines de la mer qui, avant de revenir vers nous en dansant, peuvent reculer si..."
Well, this is the thing with Proust. His mind was so very full of images and sounds and words, and he was associating them all in a very personal way... That is why this Group Read is so very good. Everyone contributes and we all help each other trying to find what Proust had in his mind.
The reference to the Greco painting above is another instance that unless one is familiar with it, is not easy to catch either. Karpeles did not include it.
I loved Richard's attention to the Pigeon Vole and Patricia finding the song in Youtube (I am ordering the CD).
Kalliope wrote: .... The reference to the Greco painting above is another instance that unless one is familiar with it, is not easy to catch either. Karpeles did not include it. There seem to be a few of these that Karpeles did not include. Although I love the book, it's sometimes frustrating to read of a painting in Proust and not see it in Paintings in Proust!
Thank you for sharing the artwork.
Kalliope wrote: "Patricia wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Patricia wrote: "More Faber-Castells-N°2=HB-pencil scribbled on the margin of the Budding Girls text:Sorry Kall,i find it difficult to follow the thread becaus I..."
Has the group started on the Second Part in my copy "Nombres de las comarcas: La comarca"?
I have already placed my post in last week´s reading.
Patricia wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Patricia wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Patricia wrote: "More Faber-Castells-N°2=HB-pencil scribbled on the margin of the Budding Girls text:Sorry Kall,i find it difficult to follow th..."
Yes, it was started at the end of last week's reading.. All the posts in this section discuss Balbec.
Martin wrote: "Kalliope wrote: .... The reference to the Greco painting above is another instance that unless one is familiar with it, is not easy to catch either. Karpeles did not include it. There seem to be..."
Yes, I love the Karpeles book. I got the feeling that he gets most paintings, certainly when they are explicitly mentioned.. and then makes proposals when Proust only includes some sort of description (there was one Gustave Moreau which did not fit very well), and then leaves out when it is only the painters, with no works, that are mentioned.
All of this art, all this knowledge - I am feeling, and reeling in, a fervent awe (El entierro del Conde de Orgaz virtually stopped me breathing); it's like getting too close to the sun, it's starting to burn, maybe to effect a burn off or my indolent ignorance...and in saying that I am reminded to look for the words of Harold Bloom in his "How to Read and Why" (which book lead me to ISOLT): "Proustian memory finally seems a mode of right action which cures the narrator, and the reader, of what the ancient Hindu work [the Bhagavad Gita] warns against as "dark inertia"."
Patricia wrote: "Marcus wrote: "Wondering about a link between dining room descriptions of the various characters and cliques in the Grand Hotel and those in dining room of the sanitorium Hans Castorp goes to in Ma..."'Rites of Passage' novels?
Glad you see the link too Patricia. I even wondered - and this is too fanciful I am sure- if in mentioning "the young consumptive" in the dining room whose heart he would like to get to know, he is nodding towards Hans Castorp?
Marcus wrote: "All of this art, all this knowledge - I am feeling, and reeling in, a fervent awe (El entierro del Conde de Orgaz virtually stopped me breathing); it's like getting too close to the sun, it's start..."Now, if someone asked me what Proust, El Greco, Harold Bloom, and the Bhagavad Gita had in common...
We come upon this fragment that might help to explain Proust's concept of beauty, or his aesthetics if you prefer. Proust's explanation of the beautiful will always be partial, qualified, situational and temporal:--as the beauty of people is not like the beauty of things, as we feel that it is that of an unique creature, endowed with consciousness and free will-- p. 397 ML
After desiring (wanting to be seen, to be remembered, etc.) the milk girl selling coffee at the early morning stop on the train to Balbec..the train leaves her in her valley (see Message 156 of last week's reading ending 3/24), after wanting a second milk girl at the hotel who he never sees again, after the attractive girls seen in passing from Mme de Villparisis's carriage, the Narrator, once out of her carriage and on foot to look at a church, speaks to a fetching local fisher-girl that he happens on:
I felt that the fisher-girl would remember me, and I felt vanishing, with my fear of not being able to meet her again, part also of my desire to meet her. It seemed to me that I had succeeded in touching her person with invisible lips, and that I had pleased her. And this assault and capture of her mind, this immaterial possession had taken from her part of her mystery, just as physical possession does. p.403 ML
And we recall from the hawthorn sequence in Combray, on a walk along the Méséglise way to his initial encounter with Gilberte, how important it is for the young Narrator to be seen, to be remembered.
Eugene wrote: "We come upon this fragment that might help to explain Proust's concept of beauty, or his aesthetics if you prefer. Proust's explanation of the beautiful will always be partial, qualified, situation..."Maybe...Proust's notorious habit of tipping was is his way of "touching" or of being "remembered."
http://books.google.com/books?id=Peyy...
Mme de Villeparisis on the armchair that "avait été donné à ma mère par la malheureuse duchesse de Praslin".. and later "Mme de Praslin, qui n'était que Mlle Sebastiani.."Well there is a film with Bette Davis, from 1940, on the episode of why was she "malheureuse"
http://christinacroft.blogspot.com.es...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_...
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0032194/p...
I must say that I am truly impressed by all the stuff that you are all able to dig out. You guys are terrific!
Kalliope wrote: "Mme de Villeparisis on the armchair that "avait été donné à ma mère par la malheureuse duchesse de Praslin".. and later "Mme de Praslin, qui n'était que Mlle Sebastiani.."Well there is a film wit..."
Oh, thank you. Love, love learning about French history, and how Proust weaves it in with such skill. I can imagine how fascinating his conversations were, littered with casual asides. I just ordered "All This and Heaven Too" on Netflix. I could have rented it at Amazon, but after reading the latest news...I will spend my money on madeleines.
Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Mme de Villeparisis on the armchair that "avait été donné à ma mère par la malheureuse duchesse de Praslin".. and later "Mme de Praslin, qui n'était que Mlle Sebastiani.."Well th..."
I have found a collection of six of her films, which includes this one, and may get it to watch with my mother, who loves these films... And I will buy from Amazon, because they make it available in the original. There is no such thing as Netflix here..., so Amazon is appreciated.
And yes, Proust is incredible with all these references.. I have not enjoyed it so much with other authors to track all their references... There is always a discovery.
When Marcel Proust writes, "--as the beauty of people is not like the beauty of things..." how and where does he write of the "beauty of things"?One particular example begins on P. 408 ML, "This road was like many others of the same kind..." and ends on p. 410 ML, "...as one of those ineffable moments of happiness which neither the present nor the future can restore to us and which we taste only once in a lifetime!"
Here the 'beauty of the thing' is nature. Marcel Proust, a student of Ruskin, gives us his impressions of roadways in France and their natural attractions. To give his impression is how he sees beauty for us and lets us see though his eyes and pen but we see a different beauty than what he experienced, we read of it and in kind have our impressions of the reading.
Much of ISOLT, as he writes it, seen through eyes of the adult Narrator, judging by what we've read so far, is Marcel Proust's paean to beauty, he gives us his impressions (through the mind of the Narrator or Swann) of the beautiful. Beauty honors beauty...
Jaye wrote: "Jocelyne wrote: "Jaye, Could it be that Proust's lush and vivid prose makes your longing for the sea even keener?"I could, though I have this impression of Proust that his narrator is so emotiona..."
I feel the same. We should all have his sensibility and his capacity to appreciate things, although it is also partially an acquired skill, and we probably can learn to see, hear and taste differently. I noticed that I see things differently if I photograph them. I noticed that especially in macro-photography. Also, I read some place that people in the perfume industry did not have more nerve cells to perceive nuances in smells but that it was their ability to analyze them cognitively which makes the difference. That being said, I don't think that Balbec would ever look to me the way it looked to Proust! Unless I were on something!
Jocelyne wrote: Françoise definitely has my vote as best supporting actress. I am starting to wonder if she is not one of the most well-drawn characters; the more I read the more she is further defined,refined and highlighted...Every time Proust writes about Odette, I fall asleep. Every time Francoise comes into the scene, I perk up. I loved that description of her clothes in last week's reading, the clothes she wore for the long voyage to Balbec. Wonderful in juxtaposition to the Odette clothing descriptions.
Eugene wrote: "Here the 'beauty of the thing' is nature. Marcel Proust, a student of Ruskin, gives us his impressions of roadways in France and their natural attractions. To give his impression is how he sees beauty for us and lets us see though his eyes and pen but we see a different beauty than what he experienced, we read of it and in kind have our impressions of the reading."Roadways, architecture, paintings, trains... it is in these descriptions where I feel most comfortable with Proust. (Memories triggered by smells and food come in a close second.) There is something haunting--a beautiful haunting, to be sure--about a narrow, dark road, that stretches up a hill, behind which the sun's setting rays fade slowly away.
I am so glad to be finalling tackling ISOLT.
J.A. wrote: "Jocelyne wrote: Françoise definitely has my vote as best supporting actress. I am starting to wonder if she is not one of the most well-drawn characters; the more I read the more she is further def..."Yes...Françoise is as creative with fabric as she is with food, and with her old French "code," she is very powerful. (I still can't believe a code-consequence..."no hot water!")
"But the cloak having grown too shabby to wear, Francoise had had it turned, exposing an "inside" of plain cloth and quite a good colour. ….so with the velvet band, the loop of ribbon that would have delighted one in a portrait by Chardin or Whistler, which Francoise had set with simple but unerring taste upon the hat, which was now charming."
Turning fabric is not uncommon. As a matter of fact, in the new book "Fortuny Interiors," many interior designers "turn" Fortuny fabric deliberately. The author, Brian Coleman, will be speaking at The Clark Museum on April 14th.
http://www.clarkart.edu/visit/event-d...
Marcelita wrote: Turning fabric is not uncommon.Especially in those days when clothing/cloth was so expensive. Many men only had two suits their entire lives. Often their best "Sunday" suit was pawned on a weekly basis. Darning was a highly-prized skill. Even in the wealthiest home, repairing clothing was common.
Kalliope wrote: "Patricia wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Patricia wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Patricia wrote: "More Faber-Castells-N°2=HB-pencil scribbled on the margin of the Budding Girls text:Sorry Kall,i find it diffi..."
Kalliope wrote: "Patricia wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Patricia wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Patricia wrote: "More Faber-Castells-N°2=HB-pencil scribbled on the margin of the Budding Girls text:
Sorry Kall,i find it diffi..."
thanks Kall I´ll re-read my notes with renovated voigour
J.A. wrote: "Jocelyne wrote: Françoise definitely has my vote as best supporting actress. I am starting to wonder if she is not one of the most well-drawn characters; the more I read the more she is further def..."Yes, and the most remarkable is that Proust gives Francoise's clothing only a few brush strokes and still she stands out as sharply defined as Odette with all her bells and whistles.
Martin wrote: "Eugene wrote: "Here the 'beauty of the thing' is nature. Marcel Proust, a student of Ruskin, gives us his impressions of roadways in France and their natural attractions. To give his impression is ..."I too feel very sensitive to the physical surroundings, and more particularly, to the natural elements, a lone tree, a country road, the waning light on a rock.
The section describing the hotel guests and the dining situation brings back memories of all the times I've stayed at resort hotels in Europe. 'Tis a strange, strange world.
Martin wrote: "There is something haunting--a beautiful haunting, to be sure--about a narrow, dark road, that stretches up a hill, behind which the sun's setting rays fade slowly away."Yes.
Well, I finished the week's assigned pages -- but, I had to catch up with the previous week's reading. I am determined to keep going, but this week seemed a little breathless, making up for lost pages.I love that great moment, at the end of "Autour de Mme Swann," of Mme Swann walking along the Avenue -- almost suspended animation. It is May. And I wondered this time if this Woman rendered with such beautiful words is a new Mary -- May is the month of Mary (we caught a glimpse of this earlier with all the hawthorns decorating the Combray church in May). So often Proust's images and metaphors draw on a religious element. How much is he re-creating and re-forming his childhood religion?
And, soon after, we get such a completely different scene: instead of the single Woman walking on an avenue, a great bustle of guests and visitors and diners and staff in a sea-side hotel. Such a contrast!
Today in the lambing barn amid 200 newborn lambs on Easter Day, I was talking to Francesco Mastalia, a photographer who takes pictures similar to Julia Margaret Cameron (called "the Annie Leibowitz of her time") using a 19th century wet plate collodion camera, about throwing away old photographs--even those not taken of you or taken by you--and how difficult it is and I thought of my readings in Proust particularly a recent quote, one his many about the dearness of the past, "...those ineffable moments of happiness which neither the present nor the future can restore to us and which we taste only once in a lifetime!"
It's the past, "those ineffable moments of happiness", you throw out when you throw out photographs. The digital age with the click of a mouse has made all manner of disposal easier, as drones make killing more abstract and consequently facile, but destroying a photograph is still difficult, we agreed, no matter whether it was taken with a 19th century camera, a box Kodak of the 1930's or the digital camera on my iPhone.
Eugene wrote: "Today in the lambing barn amid 200 newborn lambs on Easter Day, I was talking to Francesco Mastalia, a photographer who takes pictures similar to Julia Margaret Cameron (called "the Annie Leibowitz..."More and more, I am seeing trays of "vintage" photographs in shops. I always wonder why people buy them, as some prices are dear. Maybe they are reminders, memories of another time...summer at the beach or building snowmen?
That's funny you both bring this up, I came across an auction of photographs by Diane Arbus and the starting bids are a pretty sum: https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/ph...
ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "That's funny you both bring this up, I came across an auction of photographs by Diane Arbus and the starting bids are a pretty sum: https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/ph..."Oh, ReemK10, like a knife slipped in so silently, this photograph sent me back to the novel and the saddest of memories.
https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/ph...
For New Yorkers, it echoes the Bois and the narrator's feelings of the an elegant past lost.
http://www.coreysosebee.com/portfolio...
Here is a documentary of the tragedy:
http://pennstationdoc.com/pennstation...
Patricia wrote: "Marcus wrote: "Wondering about a link between dining room descriptions of the various characters and cliques in the Grand Hotel and those in dining room of the sanitorium Hans Castorp goes to in Ma..."There is a link in subject matter but, I now realise, unless Proust knew Mann or had otherwise read a manuscript of MM he (MP) wouldn't have known about Castorp as MM was published after he had died.
Eugene wrote: "Today in the lambing barn amid 200 newborn lambs on Easter Day, I was talking to Francesco Mastalia, a photographer who takes pictures similar to Julia Margaret Cameron (called "the Annie Leibowitz..."Found this 'ineffable moments once in a lifetime' line desperately sad actually. In fact this week showed me a lot of melancholy in the narrator, contrasted with the more upbeat optimism of Mme De Sevigne
Marcelita wrote: "ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "That's funny you both bring this up, I came across an auction of photographs by Diane Arbus and the starting bids are a pretty sum: https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/..."I'm glad I posted this link because it led to my viewing this lovely trailer. I find it hard to believe that America had no patience with a majestic fifty-year-old building. And so the photo reminds of what once was, and that is why old photographs mustn't be destroyed. Thanks for sharing.
Marcus wrote: "Found this 'ineffable moments once in a lifetime' line desperately sad actually."For me it is wistful and beautiful and telling of how Proust experiences beauty, this passage that contains the quote, rather than sad...the past is gone forever only to be recalled by one's impression of it.
And there are multiple Narrators: this line/passage--that you find "desperately sad"--is spoken by the adult N in retroflection while the descriptions of Mme De Sevigne are primarily spoken by the 'learning' child N and spoken by his grandmother who is so dear and heartwarming here.
Marcelita wrote: "ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "That's funny you both bring this up, I came across an auction of photographs by Diane Arbus and the starting bids are a pretty sum: https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/..."the destruction of Penn Station broguht tears to my eyes
Cassian wrote: "Well, I finished the week's assigned pages -- but, I had to catch up with the previous week's reading. I am determined to keep going, but this week seemed a little breathless, making up for lost pa..."I agree with you, Cassian, that in Proust's remembrances about Combray there is a meditative tone akin to religious fervor. I love it so much everytime he takes us back to Combray.
Marcelita wrote: "ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "That's funny you both bring this up, I came across an auction of photographs by Diane Arbus and the starting bids are a pretty sum: https://onlineonly.christies.com/s/..."Powerful!
Richard, I did the same and found myself thinking "glacier?"
Is it the same word in French? Like a glacier in the Italian Alps? Or maybe Proust was referring to the mountains in the far, far background? They do seem "bluish."