The Year of Reading Proust discussion
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Within a Budding Grove
Within a Budding Grove, vol. 2
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I'm puzzled by the two-fingered handshake that M. de Charlus offers the Narrator - twice in this week's reading, he proffers only the ring and middle fingers.Does he do this because the Narrator's hand is that of a very small child, or is there a separate cultural meaning here?
I think it's just snooty affectation...but that's just me.
Tom wrote: "I'm puzzled by the two-fingered handshake that M. de Charlus offers the Narrator - twice in this week's reading, he proffers only the ring and middle fingers.Does he do this because the Narrator'..."
I think M.de Charlus is just trying to show off pretending he is SO sophisticated.
I'd agree Patricia. Like M. Bloch: "I'm so cool I have a signed portrait by that one famous dude. Never mind that I cut off the signature to make room for the frame." Though Proust grew up with some privilege, he is very skillful at pointing out how ridiculous anyone can be, at any level. I love him for it.
Martin wrote: "I'd agree Patricia. Like M. Bloch: "I'm so cool I have a signed portrait by that one famous dude. Never mind that I cut off the signature to make room for the frame." Though Proust grew up with s..."
I really enjoy his sarcasm too when dealing with the conceit and pedantry of the nobility, but I find his contempt vis-a-vis Françoise,for whom I have a soft spot, rather unpleasant.
I cant agree about the contempt for Francoise, Jocelyne.When we remember that it is through the narrator that we have come to know Françoise, that the entire picture we have of her is through his eyes, I think we have to accept that while he makes us aware that her origins and education are different to his own, this is not contempt; he in no way underestimates her natural cunning or her skills, whether at cooking, sewing or making allegiances with hotel staff and he respects her as much, maybe more than we do. I imagine that rather than contempt, he feels actual love for her. He just masks his feelings from us sometimes, I think....
In Victorian England the etiquette for young women receiving visitors in their home was to greet new acquaintances by holding out their right arm with two fingers extended, while closer family friends and relatives got three.In A Brief History of Life in Victorian Britain Michael Paterson says that this custom was universal. He cites an account of a visit to Harrow School by Prince Albert:
"The Prince, preceded by the Marquis of Abercorn and two others, advances, bowing low, presents two fingers to the Headmaster and is bowed up the steps." He goes on to quote a memoir by Leila von Meister who is disparaging of a Russian Princess visiting the court of the German Emperor. "She is no favourite with Their Majesties. She gives herself insufferable airs, and only deigns to give the Empress, her hostess, two fingers when they meet, which infuriates both the Emperor and the Empress. It is strange how often princesses forget to behave like ladies."
Presumably it was not the Russian Princess's place to offer only the two fingers when she is the guest and not the host. Or maybe the higher status person was supposed to offer the two fingers. So Charlus was either being formal or he was emphasising his higher status. Or both.
Karen wrote: "In Victorian England the etiquette for young women receiving visitors in their home was to greet new acquaintances by holding out their right arm with two fingers extended, while closer family frie..."Thank you for this information, Karen... It had to be something like that, with Charlus, keeping distance.
Fionnuala wrote: "I cant agree about the contempt for Francoise, Jocelyne.When we remember that it is through the narrator that we have come to know Françoise, that the entire picture we have of her is through his ..."
I also did not get the impression that in this volume the Narrator dislikes Françoise. I think he is amused by the way she makes friends, or by her complaining that they are paying so much in the hotel (when she is not).
In Combray he wanted her fired on the spot when he witnessed her cruelty with animals, but in this volume he has softened a great deal. I only see a certain irony, but a tone of endearment.
I would have to agree with both Kalliope and Fionnuala about the narrator's attitude toward Françoise in this volume. It is true that up to this point, he simply makes fun of her. I think that my impression stems from comments that he makes a little further in the book and that stick with me and taint this portion of the read.
Karen wrote: "In Victorian England the etiquette for young women receiving visitors in their home was to greet new acquaintances by holding out their right arm with two fingers extended, while closer family frie..."That is fascinating! I suppose only offering two fingers is akin to barely touching and therefore less direct and intimate. Depending on who is extending those two fingers, it can be arrogant or respectful.
This 'finger greeting' is endlessly fascinating and potentially embarrassing. Remember Richard Nixon's 'digital faux-pas' in South America?
Ha! Funny about the two fingers. But why the middle and ring fingers. I tried it and found it awkward with those two fingers and easier with the index and middle. Not only harder to do but looks more strange. No way to do it gracefully.
Kalliope wrote: "Reem,Yes, that is what I meant in my post #27. The translated "literary" corresponds to the "un peu de litterature", meaning that all that writing is overblowing and making too much out of her supposed despair. ..."
This made me smile broadly...bringing to mind the two sections in the book that have been such a challenge to me. 1) Swann's long obsession with Odette 2) The Narrator's interminable obsession with Gilberte. Speaking of overblown and making too much of supposed despair! ;-)
I love Proust's exploration of the myriad facets that make us fully human...contradictions abound.
Cheryl wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Reem,Yes, that is what I meant in my post #27. The translated "literary" corresponds to the "un peu de litterature", meaning that all that writing is overblowing and making too m..."
I agree with you, Cheryl, that so far the tale of these two obsessions is the least interesting to me.
Marcelita wrote: "Then Proust takes off on the terrific riff of examples, only to leave us with the best friendship/marriage advice:'Each of our friends has his defects, to such an extent that to continue to love him we are obligated to console ourselves for them---by thinking of his talent, his kindness, his affection---or rather by ignoring them, for which we need to deploy all our good will.'
No need to look elsewhere, the answer is here: You can't change another person, you can only change yourself. ..."
I found this so rich...befriending fellow human beings with all of our shining qualities and our more troublesome foibles...spoke to me not only of how impossible it is to change another but also the beauty of embracing another in all of their perfection and imperfection...which I think we find in life once we have accepted ourselves as fully human.
A few years ago I worked with a man who could be quite harsh (and abusive)...one day he was on a tirade pointing out all of my weaknesses. Not the least ruffled (which maddened him) I pointed out that as a mature woman I knew my strengths and my weaknesses...I had learned long ago to embrace my strengths and accept the fact that I didn't have enough years on this planet to be great at all things. I knew that to be true not only of myself but all those I cherish...and that was a wonderful thing to grasp in life. That bit left him stuttering, sputtering and stammering.
I have loved being in Balbec with the Narrator.
Karen wrote: "I mean, he (Charlus)is coming on to the narrator isn't he? ...Am I completely wrong here? This is the same Charlus in whose safe hands Swann put Odette, knowing that nothing would come of it, isn't that right? "
I, too, felt the tension of Charlus entering the Narrator's room with a gift. I began wondering how old the Narrator was...and worry for his naivete and confusion. As well as the new prism we were looking at Charlus through...from the moment he was observing the Narrator on the street. Charlus' betrayal when he invited the Narrator and his grandmother to tea. So many currents and undertows.
Then I thought of Swann trusting Charlus with Odette...and wondered about Swann's judgement or does Swann know something we are yet to learn?
Cheryl wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Then Proust takes off on the terrific riff of examples, only to leave us with the best friendship/marriage advice:'Each of our friends has his defects, to such an extent that to..."
Good for you Cheryl! What a brave, self-affirming rebuttal to that bully. It left me stuttering!
Cheryl wrote: "Karen wrote: "I mean, he (Charlus)is coming on to the narrator isn't he? ...Am I completely wrong here? This is the same Charlus in whose safe hands Swann put Odette, knowing that nothing would c..."
As Fionnuala said earlier, it is the beauty of Proust. He leaves little seeds here and there and we continue seeing them sprout and blossom all through the novel.
Dinner at Rivebelle...let's all get drunk and over-tip! (Actually in life, Proust was a terrific tipper).
MMR. wrote: "Ha! Funny about the two fingers. But why the middle and ring fingers. I tried it and found it awkward with those two fingers and easier with the index and middle. Not only harder to do but look..."I had not registered the middle & ring finger...somehow I just envisioned the easier index and middle finger. It's very difficult. Awkward. Nearly impossible. To be accomplished with any social grace it seems you would have to be very deliberate and practiced.
Jocelyne wrote: "Cheryl wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Then Proust takes off on the terrific riff of examples, only to leave us with the best friendship/marriage advice:'Each of our friends has his defects, to such an...
Good for you Cheryl! What a brave, self-affirming rebuttal to that bully. It left me stuttering! "
Thank you, Jocelyne. I attempted to read Remembrance of Things Past several decades ago...could not get through it. Now with a lifetime of experience and understanding of humans not only does ISOLT resonate...but it delights...makes me laugh...frustrates...a full range of response that covers all the pearly grays of life.
And if I am honest...I see bits and pieces of myself reflected in a wide range of characters...admirably (and not so)...and sometimes just ludicrously. Proust so astutely captures what we all do to navigate this world. Recognition that sets aside cultural differences, social strata, location...and 100 years.
Kalliope wrote: "I agree with you, Cheryl, that so far the tale of these two obsessions is the least interesting to me."LOL, Kalliope...thank you for this...in some way I was chagrined that the angst held so little interest for me...in fact was annoying. I had an urge to deliver one of those dramatic vintage film style slaps to snap both Swann and the Narrator out of it.
Cheryl wrote: "Jocelyne wrote: "Cheryl wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "Then Proust takes off on the terrific riff of examples, only to leave us with the best friendship/marriage advice:'Each of our friends has his de..."
Yes, what a sharp observer he is of every minute detail. He does not miss a beat, and I do think that every single reader can identify with some of the traits he points to. Fionnuala had described the book as philosphy with a narrative overlay. Maybe we could expand that definition to philosophy, psychology, art, music and literary critique with a narrative overlay.
Filling out the frame:The Baron's nephew replaced his furniture with Art Nouveau. (page 460)
http://www.ecole-de-nancy.com/web/ind...
The grandmother: "... she was defenceless as soon as a thing presented itself under the externals of an intellectual superiority, so much so, indeed, that she regarded princes as enviable above all other men because they were able to have a La Bruyère or a Fénelon as their tutors." (pp. 461-2)
Jean de La Bruyère (1645-1696)
http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/bruyere.htm
François Fénelon
AKA François de Salignac de La Mothe-Fénelon
http://www.nndb.com/people/424/000105...
La Bruyère returns: 'And La Bruyère tells us that that is everything: 'To be with the people one loves , to speak to them, not to speak to them, it is all the same.' He is right: that is the only true happiness,' added M. de Charlus in a mournful voice, 'and, alas, life is so ill arranged that one very rarely experiences it. Mme. de Sévigné was after all less to be pitied than most of us. She spent a great part of her life with the person whom she loved.'
'You forget that it wasn't 'love' in her case, since it was her daughter.'
'But what matters in life is not whom or what one loves,' he went on, in a judicial, peremptory, almost cutting tone, 'it is the fact of loving.'" (page 468)
Marcelita wrote: "Filling out the frame:The Baron's nephew replaced his furniture with Art Nouveau. (page 460)
http://www.ecole-de-nancy.com/web/ind...
The grandmother: "... she was defenc..."
This François Fénelon from the seventeenth century was a descendant from another famous Bertrand Fénelon from the sixteenth century. And they both were the ancestors of Marcel Proust's friend, Bertrand Alfred Marie de Salignac-Fénelon.
Proust's friend died during the war.
ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "As readers did you already know that there really was a Mme de Sevigne who was known for her letter writing and literary salon? I certainly didn't."Women were the hostesses of these highly sough..."
Kalliope wrote: "ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "As readers did you already know that there really was a Mme de Sevigne who was known for her letter writing and literary salon? I certainly didn't.
"Women were the h..."
I just found this video of Mme de Sévigné's château à Grignan and will post it for future readers to have a visual of her home.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLajsu...
Stunnng home!
Fionnuala wrote: " I've just met the Baron de Charlus and I'm intrigued by the convolutions of the Guermantes extended family. If I understand correctly, Mme de Villeparisis has two ne..."Thank you Fionnuala for clearing this up for us. This confusing genealogy stopped me mid stride and i wasn't able to properly untangle this web until I found a family tree, though I like your explanation even better.
The Year of Reading Proust
Books mentioned in this topic
A Brief History of Life in Victorian Britain (other topics)Les caractères de La Bruyère (other topics)
"These stories certainly used to make my great-aunt laugh, but she cou..."
I found something, but it doesn't appear until The Guermantes Way...so over to the lounge.