The Year of Reading Proust discussion
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Within a Budding Grove
Within a Budding Grove, vol. 2
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Through Sunday, 7 Apr.: Within a Budding Grove
Bougre, Kalliope, you caught me peeking at gr on my iPad!But I have been reading the introduction to Mme de S's letters and it describes how the mail worked in the 1600's. Letters from Province reached Paris on Mondays and Wednesdays and mail left the capital for the south on Wednesdays and Fridays. So Mme de S began on Mondays to answer the letter received from her daughter that day, continued it on Tuesday and posted it on Wednesday. Then she'd begin on Thursday to answer the letter received on Wednesday in time for the post on Friday. Sixteen hundred of her letters have survived!
Fionnuala wrote: "Bougre, Kalliope, you caught me peeking at gr on my iPad!But I have been reading the introduction to Mme de S's letters and it describes how the mail worked in the 1600's. Letters from Province re..."
Fantastic piece of information. Imagine Mme de Sévigné travelling forward in time to our email and internet age. She and her daughter would have just shared a blog.
Don't tell me that I have to pull out my Mme de Sévigné again from my bookshelf...!!
Karen wrote: "I see your quibble as being with the word 'literary' is that it? I agree with Kal and Fionnuala:..." I agree with Proust :-)
Now to finish this week's reading...
Outside the Bloch family dinner, young Bloch speaks of Saint-Loup's uncle, M de Charlus, in a sarcastic tone who he'd seen the day before. "You are absolutely mistaken: he's an extremely clever man," retorted Saint-Loup, now furious.
"I'm sorry about that; it makes him less complete..." ML p. 488
A marvelous turn of phrase by Bloch, so uncharacteristic of his classics inspired speech patterns.
If I have enough time tomorrow, which I probably won't, I'd like to offer some observations on humor in Proust, particularly during the Bloch family dinner; if not, then Sunday.
Eugene wrote: "If I have enough time tomorrow, which I probably won't, I'd like to offer some observations on humor in Proust, particularly during the Bloch family dinner; if not, then Sunday."I shall look forward to that. One of my keenest pleasures, and greatest surprises, has been how funny Proust is.
I was thinking about....how Proust studies human behavior from every facet, then becomes "Marcel Post.""...although in his company (Saint-Loup), I was alone as I should have been in front of a landscape the harmony of which I could understand. He was no more then than an object the properties of which, in my musings, I sought to explore."
"But the variety of our defects is no less remarkable than the similarity of our virtues."
Then Proust takes off on the terrific riff of examples, only to leave us with the best friendship/marriage advice:
"Each of our friends has his defects, to such an extent that to continue to love him we are obligated to console ourselves for them---by thinking of his talent, his kindness, his affection---or rather by ignoring them, for which we need to deploy all our good will."
No need to look elsewhere, the answer is here: You can't change another person, you can only change yourself.
Marcelita wrote: "I was thinking about....how Proust studies human behavior from every facet, then becomes "Marcel Post.""...although in his company (Saint-Loup), I was alone as I should have been in front of a lan..."
I like your observation and the quotes used, and they indicate maturity which seems to be at odds with his behavior when he sobs himself to sleep because his grandmother wouldn't/didn't kiss him good night.
" At length I would go to bed, a little resentful of her for depriving me, with an indifference so new and strange in her, of a joy on which I had counted so much, and I would lie there for a while, my heart throbbing as in my childhood, listening to the wall which remained silent, until I cried myself to sleep." (501-502)
It's so strange how not having these good night kisses is so traumatic for him, even when he's older.
ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "I was thinking about....how Proust studies human behavior from every facet, then becomes "Marcel Post.""...although in his company (Saint-Loup), I was alone as I should have been..."
I remember going to visit my mother. For the first few days, I was an "adult," but then something weird happened...and I fell back into "child" interactions. Not immature, but the same unequal parent-child relationship. I see a similar thing happening with a close friend. Those mother-daughter patterns are difficult to break, especially if they are loving.
Marcelita wrote: "ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "I was thinking about....how Proust studies human behavior from every facet, then becomes "Marcel Post.""...although in his company (Saint-Loup), I w..."
That's actually a very good point you bring up there. I think because the Narrator grew up living in a household that had a lot of family togetherness, with aunts and uncles, grandmothers and grandfathers around all the time, not to forget Francoise that he always had this role of the child.
ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "As readers did you already know that there really was a Mme de Sevigne who was known for her letter writing and literary salon? I certainly didn't."Women were the hostesses of these highly sough..."
Mme de Sévigné's letters were required reading for us in high school. I don't know if it is still taught now. I'm not Proust's contemporary but I'm no spring chicken either.
I too thought that the description of Bloch was witty, as well as of Françoise,the hotel manager, the page and a few guests' interactions and comments regarding his grandmother.
Jocelyne wrote: "ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "As readers did you already know that there really was a Mme de Sevigne who was known for her letter writing and literary salon? I certainly didn't."Women were the h..."
I'll have to see if I can find an English translation of these letters to read. I'm so intrigued now!
Jocelyne wrote:
Mme de S is probably still on the syllabus in France, Jocelyne.Who else is amazed at Saint-Loup talking about taking 'instantanés' of his mistress with his Kodak. Is this possible in 1897?
Also I'm curious that, not only can the narrator not see a photo of her, but also, he doesn't hear her name. Sounds like Proust is being evasive on purpose. Who is she going to turn out to be?
On the subject of mistresses, what to make of Bloch's train tryst with Odette?
Not on the subject of mistresses, what to make of Charlus pinching the narrator's neck and saying with an evil laugh that he, the narrator, doesn't give two figs for his grandma, the little scoundrel? And that strange scene in the narrator's bedroom?
Yes, that all made me curious too, on the one hand, the respect for the grandmother, the sensitive comments on love, etc, on the other, the winks and pinches and blowing hot and cold..bizarre indeed.
I mean, he is coming on to the narrator isn't he? All that protestation about hating effeminacy in men, that's a case of methinks the lady doth protest too much is it not?Am I completely wrong here? This is the same Charlus in whose safe hands Swann put Odette, knowing that nothing would come of it, isn't that right?
Karen wrote: "I mean, he is coming on to the narrator isn't he? All that protestation about hating effeminacy in men, that's a case of methinks the lady doth protest too much is it not?Am I completely wrong he..."
It certainly looks like that so we are curious as to where this will lead.
I'm more and more intrigued by the amount of story threads there are in À la recherche. There's a definite plot developing in spite of all the time spent philosophizing.
Fionnuala wrote: Who else is amazed at Saint-Loup talking about taking 'instantanés' of his mistress with his Kodak. Is this possible in 1897?
Also I..."
When I read about Saint-Loup's Kodak I could not help but recall all those "kodak moments" of the commercials in my childhood. At note in my edition tells me that the first Kodak camera came out in 1888. So, yes, it is possible for Saint-Loup to be taking snapshots of his mistress. Wow! To think it has been going on all this time . . .
Humor: In Vol 1, 509 pages into Vol 2 and in the 12 or so years that we've been told his story seldom or never has the Narrator laughed. The only time I can recall, that might be called laughter, is when he completed his written piece on Dr. Percipied's carriage and he sung.
Cassian wrote: "Fionnuala wrote: Who else is amazed at Saint-Loup talking about taking 'instantanés' of his mistress with his Kodak. Is this possible in 1897?
Also I..."
When I read about Saint-Loup's Kodak I c..."
This is indeed amazing to think that the Kodak camera came out such a long time ago. It feels so anachronistic.
Fionnuala: I've wondered about that (Odette & Bloch) for years...On the one hand...It's Bloch, who wld not hesitate to lie...On the other hand...it's Odette! I've never known which to believe (i.e. that Bloch really had an encounter with her, or the part when the Narrator is out on a walk with the Swanns and Mme. Swann seems to barely know Bloch...
I'm finding Baron de Charlus very entertaining. And I agree that his interest in the young Narrator is sexual. When the Baron enters the stage, the Narrator only knows him as a man staring at him suspiciously, as if he were a hotel thief...a "thief" perhaps, but not in the way the Narrator imagines. I think the reason why the Baron got so upset after the pinching episode was because the Narrator didn't respond to the pinching in the sexual way that he would have liked. Thus the strange speech about the lecture he should have given him the night before and the demand that he return his book. Which he sends back again, this time in a binding decorated with a demi-relief of forget-me-nots. The Narrator knows all these things are significant but he's too inexperienced to understand why.
Elizabeth wrote: Fionnuala: I've wondered about that (Odette & Bloch) for yearsPerhaps the truth is somewhere in between. Odette might have flirted with Bloch and Bloch decided to wildly exaggerate in order to impress his friends, as young men are wont to do...I wouldn't be surprised if we don't find other details from a different perspective since this is one of the main themes of the books. Like the way everyone in Cambray "knows" Odette is the Baron's mistress while everyone in Paris "knows" this is impossible. I keep thinking of that magic lantern and how the truth shifts with the light, the Narrator caught watching, trying to understand the constantly shifting "story" which seems to always involve the descendants of Genevieve de Brabant.
Look what I found: (Reem singing Ta Da!!) http://archive.org/details/selections...
The letters of Madame de Sevigne to her daughter and friends (1869)
You can download, read in pdf, kindle etc.
I don't think there should be any problem with posting this as I found it on the University of California Digital Library website.
The letters are really quite delightful!! :)
ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "Look what I found: (Reem singing Ta Da!!) http://archive.org/details/selections...
The letters of Madame de Sevigne to her daughter and friends (1869)
You can download, read in pdf..."
I just downloaded to my kindle...thank you!!
Here is another site from Open Library; many letters can be read online: http://openlibrary.org/authors/OL5556...
J.A. wrote: "I'm finding Baron de Charlus very entertaining. And I agree that his interest in the young Narrator is sexual. When the Baron enters the stage, the Narrator only knows him as a man staring at him s..."Yes, it is funny that the Narrator thought Charlus was up to no good when he first spotted him.
But what about the episode about Charlus and a few others beating up a man who dared to make advances to him in his youth....
Marcelita wrote: "ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "Look what I found: (Reem singing Ta Da!!) http://archive.org/details/selections...
The letters of Madame de Sevigne to her daughter and friends (1869)
..."
Isn't it wonderful? I'm reading and marvelling at how smoothly it flows. I tried to find out who the translator was, and it seems a Miss Preston and/ or mostly the editor( editress) Mrs. Hale (S.J.H) was involved. A great translation!
Fionnuala wrote: But what about the episode about Charlus and a few others beating up a man who dared to make advances to him in his youth.... It's hard to know what exactly happened since it is a tale told by Saint-Loup, who does go on to say "My uncle would never go in for such drastic methods now, in fact you can't conceive the number of men of humble position that he, who is so haughty with people in society, has shewn his affection, taken under his wing, even if he is paid for it with ingratitude." [Proust, Marcel. Within A Budding Grove (Kindle Locations 5600-5601). Feedbooks.]
If this is indeed what happened, you could speculate that it was the overt way the man made his overtures that offended...or that it was a time when the Baron refused to recognize his attraction to men. Saint-Loups' "My uncle would never go in for such drastic...has shown his affection" seems to mean that his uncle in no longer conflicted about his sexuality. Just a small thing but did the Baron actually participate in the beating?
Humor: Who laughs in ISOLT so far? Well, Mme Verdurin laughs, so hard that Cottard might have to set her dislocated jaw, in Vol. 1; the Bloch sisters laugh at their brother's antics during the family dinner in this week's reading.
Help me out; who else laughs, have I forgotten someone?
J.A. wrote: "I'm finding Baron de Charlus very entertaining. And I agree that his interest in the young Narrator is sexual. When the Baron enters the stage, the Narrator only knows him as a man staring at him s..."Yes, I got the same impression, J.A.
Marcelita wrote: "ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "Look what I found: (Reem singing Ta Da!!) http://archive.org/details/selections...
The letters of Madame de Sevigne to her daughter and friends (1869)
..."
Reem, you are going to become an expert in Mme de Sévigné...!!! wonderful..
Eugene wrote: "Humor: Who laughs in ISOLT so far? Well, Mme Verdurin laughs, so hard that Cottard might have to set her dislocated jaw, in Vol. 1; the Bloch sisters laugh at their brother's antics during the fa..."
Will try to think about it..
Eugene wrote: "Humor: Who laughs in ISOLT so far? Well, Mme Verdurin laughs, so hard that Cottard might have to set her dislocated jaw, in Vol. 1; the Bloch sisters laugh at their brother's antics during the fa..."
Don't you feel that the narrator is having a quiet chuckle while he is describing all the ridiculous antics of the characters, from Tante Léonie to Françoise, from Legrandin to Mme Verdurin, via Cottard, again and again Cottard. And then there's M Norpois and his ability to stare without blinking or showing any expression whatsoever, M Charlus, too, his beady eye swiveling around like Mad Eye Moody, not forgetting Bloch and his classical constructions, plus the various bourgeois guests at the hotel who flee on Sundays so no one will know they haven't been invited to the Cambremers. I think Proust is having such a laugh, admittedly up his sleeve....
Fionnuala wrote: "Eugene wrote: "Humor: Who laughs in ISOLT so far? Well, Mme Verdurin laughs, so hard that Cottard might have to set her dislocated jaw, in Vol. 1; the Bloch sisters laugh at their brother's antic..."
Yes, there is a great deal of irony and humor in the way the narrator goes about narrating. I am also listening to an audio version, which is read by professional actors, and they are pretty good at changing the intonation when some ironic asides are included (which sometimes makes me laugh out loud), but I think that Eugene is above referring to actual laughter, and there seems to be very little, even if the novel is quite humorous.
Talking about the Blochs, I thought it was a stroke of genius having someone even more preposterous than Père Bloch at the dinner, with Père Bloch dying of embarrassment.
J.A. wrote: "Talking about the Blochs, I thought it was a stroke of genius having someone even more preposterous than Père Bloch at the dinner, with Père Bloch dying of embarrassment."That was certainly funny but aren't Bloch's father and grand uncle described in quite a caricatural fashion?
A similar approach is taken by Charlus when talking about the Israel family.
Yes, they certainly were! Cringe upon cringe upon cringe.
I reread the passage on the Bloch family dinner (ML p. 474...) and found it, peopled by the Blochs, tragic. I don't find tragic people humorous, in the same way I don't find jokes about women, blacks or ethnic people, etc. humorous.How I read Proust is that he is not a humorist, he is a witticist and how I use "wit" here is that it is *a knowing, many times with persiflage, but usually involving a reversal of expectation in situation or an irony of language*, for example:
"It had indeed sometimes happened that Robert would scold his groom with a certain amount of brutality, which was proof in him of a sense not so much of the difference as of the equality between the classes. "But," he said when I reproached him for having treated the man rather harshly, "why should I go out of my way to speak politely to him? Isn't he my equal? Isn't he just as near to me as any of my uncles and cousins? You seem to think I ought to treat him with respect, as an inferior. You talk like an aristocrat!" he added scornfully." ML p. 491
The laughing Mme Verdurin could have been drawn by Honoré Daumier and the laughing Bloch sisters by George Grosz; but what about us who find these tragic individuals funny, for example? Fionnalla writes: "I think Proust is having such a laugh, admittedly up his sleeve..."
Perhaps that sleeve is longer than we think. What does a writer feel about his imagined readers of 'all color & stripe' when he's writing from the most sympathetic and intelligent to the utterly vulgar?
Does Proust, not only laugh at his characters, his descriptions of them and their situations, but also laugh at (and laud too) some of his readers?
I am not surprised the Narrator never laughs because his comments are very ironic/sarcastic and that kind humour does not come from people who enjoy a good laugh. Could "literary" be translated into as "dramatic"?
St.Loup looks like a young Jude Law.I think the Narrator is in love with him.His lover has tried to make a more intellectual and sensitive person out of him but to no avail.He is totally frivolous.Just the type the Narrator would fall for.
This is St Loup entering the dining-room:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6UAYG...
Well! Look what they got their highs with back then :caffeine and valerian! Not very expensive.
All those people laughing at the poor woman in her Ancilla Domini dress saying her poem,they are so cruel!
The Narrator has a strange relation with his grandmother for a young man.Right after this the he introduces the Budding Girls that come as the total opposite,they are so free and full of life that by comparison he is a puny,sick little guy.Today he´ll be the epitome of a nerd.But I should respect him becasue a nerd might grow up to be Marcel Proust :0).
The girls are wearing clothes that show neither them nor their parents consider they should be worrying about clothes in a seaside resort like Balbec.I guess today they´ll wear cut-outs and flip flops.
MP paints such a lovely picture of these girls as he describes them comparing them to a small wood of Pennsilvania roses against the blue sea below a cliff.
Re-reading this I ´d say I have what my Psicologist Friend Monica would call a *negative identification* with the Hero.
Eugene wrote: "Humor: Who laughs in ISOLT so far? "Gilberte laughed during her wrestling episode with the narrator.
The Narrator gets his highs not only from caffeine-i agree- and valerian but from speeding in a car where he says he abandons all reasoning ;) a cocktail we might try.I wonder where you get your valerian,the caffeine: Starbuck´s.well!what do you know:out there in the garden!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valerian...
Kalliope wrote: Reem, you are going to become an expert in Mme de Sévigné...!!! wonderful.. lol Kalliope, that would be lovely!
It's really heartbreaking reading the mother's letters to her daughter and not knowing how the daughter responds to them. I'm just fascinated by these private letters that have become such public fodder. Thanks for suggesting them!!
Eugene wrote: "Humor: Who laughs in ISOLT so far? Well, Mme Verdurin laughs, so hard that Cottard might have to set her dislocated jaw, in Vol. 1; the Bloch sisters laugh at their brother's antics during the fa..."
I searched for "laugh" on my kindle. There were many results (Céline laughed...Françoise, the lady in pink, Bloch, the family-Combray, the father, the Cure, Odette...), but here is the first:
"These stories certainly used to make my great-aunt laugh, but she could never tell whether that was on account of the absurd parts which Swann invariably made himself play in the adventures, or of the wit that he shewed in telling us of them. " It is easy to see that you are a regular ' character,' M. Swann! "
Edmund White wrote, "The duc de Gramont, one of Proust's highest-born friends, once remarked that aristocrats invited Proust for country weekends not because of his art but because he and Anna de Noailles were the two funniest people in Paris."
http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/w/...
My husband says I see Proust in every character.
There is a place early on in The Guermantes Way where Marcel/the narrator refers to himself as having typically laughed at something Francoise used to say.
Marcelita "searched for 'laugh' on (her) kindle," listed some of the results & quoted Proust as an example of what she found:"These stories certainly used to make my great-aunt laugh, but she could never tell whether that was on account of the absurd parts which Swann invariably made himself play in the adventures, or of the wit that he showed in telling us of them. " It is easy to see that you are a regular ' character,' M. Swann!"
Saturday in Un Sq, Nick made the interesting observation, in response to my saying that the narrator never laughed, that Proust never encloses the words of the Narrator in quotation marks even when he is in 'direct' conversation; it's usually in retroflection that the Narrator(s) or Proust speak as in the example you cite; it's always reported.
We know that Proust went to some lectures by Henri Bergson, and they may have engaged in a couple of conversations. Apart from Matière et Mémoire, Bergson also wrote Le rire: essai sur la signification du comique, which Proust most probably knew as well. It is a very short book.
In this weeks section, the narrator says, "Comment Monsieur, je l'adore!..." when Charlus teases him about his grandmother at the beachAnd when Charlus visits his room earlier, he speaks then too. It's interesting that it is Charlus who incites the narrator to utter some direct speech...
When Charlus and a few others beat up a man who dared to make advances to him in his youth.... Methinks he doth protest too much!
The Year of Reading Proust
Books mentioned in this topic
A Brief History of Life in Victorian Britain (other topics)Les caractères de La Bruyère (other topics)
Does this mean I will have to write letters to you if you are going to read what I write in any way?