The Year of Reading Proust discussion
This topic is about
Swann’s Way
Swann's Way, vol. 1
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Through Sunday, 20 Jan.: Swann's Way
I would love to see your colour-terms list too, Kalli.
Nick wrote: "I would love to see your colour-terms list too, Kalli."Nick, it is above, comment #113, but will keep adding, like I have four more flowers....!!.. but colors are more difficult for him (or anybody) to render.
I will work on a list on light, gaze, etc.... that will take a bit still.
M. Legrandin and Anatole France.When Legrandin (pun name) invites the Narrator for dinner, he mentions that there is a writer that he should read: ".. un romancier que vous lirez plus tard, prétend que conviennent seulement l'ombre et le silence"..
And later, when he is trying to avoid the invitation to Balbec, he mentions Anatole France in a similar context: ".. la region maudite que Anatole France a si bien peinte - un enchanteur que devrait lire notre petit ami.."
May be it was A. France the writer in the first sentence above.
As far as I have noticed, France is the first and, so far, only contemporary real writer mentioned in the novel. He is thought to be however one of the key figures for Bergotte as well, but here appears on his own. Anatole France was alive when Du côté de chez Swann was published.
Ah, I must have missed it. Thank you, that is very helpful.I think in the sentence above Legrandin might mean Bergotte. (Proust reinforcing, introducing, preparing for his appearance as a character?) I.e. asking the narrator "to-read" Bergotte, is enticing us, as a reader, teasing us as we want to know who Bergotte is. I would have to read it in context.
Anatole France is mentioned, and I suppose, George Sand is too (through Francois le Champi)? Though she would have only recently died at the time the novel was set I think.
Nick wrote: "Ah, I must have missed it. Thank you, that is very helpful.I think in the sentence above Legrandin might mean Bergotte. (Proust reinforcing, introducing, preparing for his appearance as a charact..."
Yes, George Sand was long dead by the time La recherche was being written.
I thought Bergotte was already introduced to the Narrator by Bloch (who got it from "Père Leconte" - ie: Leconte de Lisle), is a friend of Swann's and also a favorite writer of a friend of the mother's (Mme Straus in real life?).
But you have read the full novel, so it may be be Bergotte after all. I do not know. I was just struck that a contemporary writer was mentioned.
It is easy to become confused between the entirely fictitious characters, the real people mentioned here and there and the fictitious characters based on real people with which Proust likes to surround his narrator, the ultimate fictitious character based on a real person ever!To keep track, and thanks to a train trip to a mini Proust event in Frankfurt which I took this week and which allowed me to finish this week's section by mid-week, I've begin to reread the first section in order to pay closer attention to how and when, not only the themes but the multitude of characters, are introduced and juxtaposed. If I can, I plan to reread a previous section each week alongside the current one, leaving a gap of at least one section between the rereads to allay boredom.
I don't expect to read much else this year, needless to add....
Yes, indeed, Bergotte has been introduced before by M. Bloch (another marvellously, ludicrously comic creation by Proust) I should have meant that he is continuing to be introduced. :) Gradually eased into our minds. That is speculation though. I am only thinking that because I do not think Proust would seek to foreground France too much, instead focussing on his fictional characters and they developing importance. Like I said though, I would need to read the passage again. :)I can understand being struck. The "real world" of "real people" rarely crops up in the Recherche, but when it does, it is always with purpose, and quite affecting/effective. Certainly gives me pause.
PS: I meant I wondered if Sand was still around at the time the book was set, or specifically, at the Narrator's Combray childhood. Dates are very very hard to pin down exactly in the book - almost impossible, and purposefully so.
Kalliope wrote: "Someone earlier on made the comment that few animals are mentioned. So far this seems true with the exception of birds."I had mentioned on another thread Joel Rich's lecture, "Proust Among the Animals," at the University of Chicago's First Friday series. He discusses dogs, fish, fowl, zoo animals, insects...
For those first time readers...wait.
Nick wrote: "...the "Hawthorn Walk" behind the Pre-Catalan at the edge of town..."What is this Pre-Catalan, Nick? Is it a meadow? I'm intrigued because I've found reference to a Spanish gardener from Galicia (not Catalonia), who grafted pink hawthorn onto all the white hawthorn bushes of his native city to create elaborate pink and white displays in springtime.
Apparently such pink and white hawthorns (aubépine) are also a vogue found in the west of France, especially Brittany. Perhaps the hawthorn hedge that Proust had in mind as the model for the one at Tansonville, was a result of a similar grafting process?
Another explanation for finding the odd pink twig in a predominantly white hawthorn bush is the phenomenon of the new growth, the new twigs (épines) or branches of the bush having a pink tinge (aube=dawn=pink?) which may colour the new flowers as well.
Ah...the Pre-Catelan/Pre is a lovely carefully built garden from the late 19th C in Illiers-Combray. It's a little bit of paradise! In Summer it must be heavenly. It was created by Jules Amiot. I think the hawthorns on the path behind this garden are white.....I made a comment above on that, then deleted it, not wanting to impinge on readers' mental images! The local Proust Society does a walk every May to have a look and a sniff :P So I think you may be very very right about that process.Some pictures of the Pre here I think!
http://www.panoramio.com/photo/83345948
(apologies for my lack of accents, it pains me but I dunno how to do 'em on this keyboard...)
EDIT: Thanks to Kalliope for pointing out I spelled Pre-Catelan wrongly. Nothing to do with Catalonia :P
Marcelita wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "Someone earlier on made the comment that few animals are mentioned. So far this seems true with the exception of birds."I had mentioned on another thread Joel Rich's lecture, "Pr..."
Thank you Marcelita. Did you post it in the Links thread?.
Since I am a first time reader I am refraining from reading too much of Auxiliary reading. I am just tracking what I read as we progress, and up till page 188 (Gallimard) I only recall the mouches (with their little chamber-orchestra), the guêpe that paralyzes its prey, the poulet (that Françoise is getting ready to cook), while the birds are often present in the landscape.
Of course as we progress I imagine more animals will get introduced, but so far his Flora is richer than his Fauna.
I think I will read Joel' R's lecture too tonight. I printed them out at work. If Marcelita doesn't reply today/tomorrow, I will post in the links thread. There's a series of 4 or 5 talks/lectures he did.
Kalliope wrote: "On Proust and Colors:Colors are notoriously difficult to render in language.
Words for color often have to have recourse to objects or to the sources of the pygments before synthetic processes ..."
Thank you so much for this! My french is rather rouillé, but I'm loving the discussion of colors.
Chance wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "On Proust and Colors:Colors are notoriously difficult to render in language.
Words for color often have to have recourse to objects or to the sources of the pygments before syn..."
Hello Chance,
You may like the book:
Bright Earth: Art and the Invention of Color
And yes, I think colors are very important for Proust who is so visual and who is trying to paint with his pen.. his choice of words is also very precious, such as saphir, pourpre.. they have all kinds of connotations... And the rich flora is also a way of putting color in his paintings.. he definitely has a "palette"..
I should get on with the terms for light and gaze..
:)
Added about 5 more flowers to the list in post #91...!!!
My favorite comment so far is one of Proustitute's, that Proust's recollections, so detailed and dramatic, force us into recollections of our own, but not really force because we WANT to recollect. I increasingly think anyone in the world could have written this novel. Marcel Proust was the only one who took the time to do so and, more importantly, had the resources to carry the project through. The wellspring for my own personal recollections is the Saturday lunch sequence. I think it is as beautiful in its way as the hawthorn passage...I come from a family which greatly prizes food and revels in loving and particular rituals, and the ebullience Marcel describes the lunches is touching, almost heartbreaking. The love with which he writes of the mass choir responses is a rare sort of writing which makes you feel happiness without beating it over your head with romance, wit, or effects. Happiness for happiness's sake.
Its power astounds me all the more when I think of one of the great themes of this section and increasingly of the book, Proust's emphasis on subjectivity and e mutual blindness between us all. People do not see what others see (Marcel's family never guessing why he is obsessed with Swann's home) and see what others do not (Legrandin's self-description is miles away from the pretentious snob Marcel and his family recognize him to be), and it all ties back to a subjectivity which is ultimately self-centered.
SPOILER
I find it very apt that this passage begins with Octave at her most dominatingly insular and ends with Marcel the same way, drawing distinctions between the world he lives in according to his terms and fantasizing endlessly about women. Like Octave, Marcel has an intense curiosity to know more abut the world, but he possesses an imagination which no one else shares.
Fionnuala wrote: "Nick wrote: "...the "Hawthorn Walk" behind the Pre-Catalan at the edge of town..."What is this Pre-Catalan, Nick? Is it a meadow? I'm intrigued because I've found reference to a Spanish gardener ..."
More than you want to know, but...I looked at the first two "historic" films of the Pre-Catalan. Then, match the contemporary photographs. The "Grandmother" would have preferred the more natural settings.
Before:
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=75KHsVDo...
Pre-Catalan @6:50
Before:
http://wn.com/combray
Pre-Catalan @2:00
After:
http://www.jardins-de-france.com/Jard...
http://marcelproust.pagesperso-orange...
Aside...the evolution of the kitchen over time is interesting, but that is for another evening.
Marcelita wrote: "ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "Since some of you have snuck in and already gotten started, I'm going to join you because I'm still giddy from reading Proust in this new section and just have to shar..."Just having a quick read through all these interesting comments...but Marcelita's experience of just having to put the book down to savour the writing was something I know well. I feel I would be losing something if I continued reading, just as I have to pause to smell roses and gardenias and lavender when out walking.It's almost a betrayal, certainly a loss, to keep on keeping on and not pause to breathe in the perfume of either words or flowers.
Jason, your confusion over the beginning of the second paragraph in "COMBRAY" had me confused in a different way:
"My grandfather's cousin - by courtesy my great-aunt-
with whom we used to stay,was the mother of that aunt Leonie who,since her husband's (my uncle Octave's) death, had gradually declined to leave,first Combray "etc.etc.
I thought the great-aunt referred to in the OVERTURE was aunt Leonie, so this sentence pulled me up with a jolt.This means that we are never given the name of the great-aunt who often teased the Narrator's grandmother by giving her husband liqueurs he had been forbidden. It seems then that aunt Leonie makes NO APPEARANCE in the OVERTURE at all ???? I find that a bit strange...well, obviously she didn't live with her mother, the great-aunt!!!Which means she must have inherited the house and allowed the Narrator's family to continue holidaying there when she had moved in and taken to her bed. Right ???
Yes, and asparagus is notorious for its effect on urine.
Thanks for the two wonderful Manet's, Kall.
There's a good little story about the single asparagus.
When I visited tante Leonie's house at Illiers-Combray in 1979 there was in the kitchen a little porcelain bundle of asparagus on the table.
Would anyone know if it's still there ??? Nick???
Thanks for the wonderful conversations, All!!
Hello, Just a reminder to everybody.
The correct name is not Pre-Catalan but Le Pré Catelan.
The accent in Pré and the "e" in the middle syllable of Catelan are important. Otherwise it reads like sort of "before Catalonian times". And this confusion may be behind Fionnuala's post above #129. It has nothing to do with Catalonia.
Wayne wrote: "Marcelita wrote: "ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "Since some of you have snuck in and already gotten started, I'm going to join you because I'm still giddy from reading Proust in this new section and..."Memories-gardenias...California...intoxicating at 12.
Great Aunt's shades of sadistic cruelty-in order to tease the grandmother, would "...MAKE my grandfather, who was forbidden liqueurs, take just a few drops."
I have always wanted to collect screen-shots of the kitchen, to see how it has changed over time.
Kalliope wrote: "Hello, Just a reminder to everybody.
The correct name is not Pre-Catalan but Le Pré Catelan.
The accent in Pré and the "e" in the middle syllable of Catelan are important. Otherwise it reads l..."
Noted and wiser.
One typo has so many repurcussions :(
Wayne wrote: "It seems then that aunt Leonie makes NO APPEARANCE in the OVERTURE at all ???? I find that a bit strange...well, obviously she didn't live with her mother, the great-aunt!!!Which means she must have inherited the house and allowed the Narrator's family to continue holidaying there when she had moved in and taken to her bed. Right ???"That's an interesting speculation, Wayne but I think that perhaps the great aunt, the mother of the bedridden Tante Léonie is meant to live in Paris and only visit Combray with the rest of the family at Easter and maybe during the summer. There was a scene recounted in the first section of a visit by Swann with the traditional marrons glacés on the first of January and that seems to take place in Paris.
So perhaps the house at Combray/Illiers is the house Tante Léonie (and her real life counterpart) shared with her husband, and which was passed on to the family after her death?
As to the real life counterpart for the great aunt herself, I'm beginning to wonder if she wasn't almost entirely a fiction as she seems to have a particularly useful role in the narrative, i.e. she offers the Narrator an opportunity to highlight behaviour and attitudes of which he disapproves but without him having to spell out his disapproval and risk sounding smug.
Fionnuala wrote: "Wayne wrote: "It seems then that aunt Leonie makes NO APPEARANCE in the OVERTURE at all ???? I find that a bit strange...well, obviously she didn't live with her mother, the great-aunt!!!Which mean..."The narrator says that the Great Aunt was the only vulgar member of the family!..
I cannot recall from Carter's bio anything about a Great Aunt.. Will try and check.
You may be completely right.
Marcelita wrote: "...I looked at the first two "historic" films of the Pré Catelan. Then, match the contemporary photographs. The "Grandmother" would have preferred the more natural settings. "Thanks for posting these wonderful photos and video clips, Marcelita. You are right, I think the Narrator's grandmother would have preferred the more natural version.
I am intrigued to learn that the house, and this exotic garden belonged to Proust's real life aunt and uncle, Jules and Elizabeth Amiot.
So Elizabeth is the model for Tante Léonie?
Some more interesting facts about The Amiot couple and their house at Illiers: http://www.architecturaldigest.com/ad...This source says Proust spent only the Easter holidays there, from the age of six to nine...
That is right, Fionnuala. He only stayed there a few times. Maybe four or five times at the most. My guide at the house told me the same fact, which until then, I had not really considered.
Fionnuala wrote: "Some more interesting facts about The Amiot couple and their house at Illiers: http://www.architecturaldigest.com/ad...This source says Proust spen..."
Thanks, Fionnuala, for the link. I've had to eMail links to myself to read later, since I'll forget them as the discussion moves on.
And apparently Elizabeth Amiot was never bed-ridden so she is not the model for Tante Léonie afterall. It seems to me that Proust created an almost entirely fictitious family for his narrator. The relatives he mentions in the house at Combray seem to belong to the Narrator's mother's family, his grandmother's (on his mother's side) sisters and her husband's relatives, whereas the real life Illiers people were Proust's father's relatives.
Fionnuala wrote: "And apparently Elizabeth Amiot was never bed-ridden so she is not the model for Tante Léonie afterall. It seems to me that Proust created an almost entirely fictitious family for his narrator. The ..."Thank you for all this information, Fionnuala, and yes, you are right that it was only the Easter vacation that he spent there.. He mentions Pâques often, but the First of January "marrons glacés" got me confused, but as you say, that happened in Paris.
I think many aspects of Aunt Léonie are modeled after himself, Marcel Proust.
Kalliope wrote: "...I think many aspects of Aunt Léonie are modeled after himself, Marcel Proust.Now that IS interesting and I don't know why I hadn't thought of it before. Who better to describe the reduced life of a bed-ridden person than Proust himself?
Now I am beginning to appreciate his talent as a writer of fiction -Tante léonie is a marvellous creation - as much as his gift for distilling perfect vignettes from the kind of sepia tinted memories we all carry within us.
Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "...I think many aspects of Aunt Léonie are modeled after himself, Marcel Proust.Now that IS interesting and I don't know why I hadn't thought of it before. Who better to describe..."
Well, it was easy for me to think of that because of having read Carter's excellent biography on Proust..!
Yes, one must be very careful to realise just how much of the Search was NOT based on real life people! That is why Proust is an artist, not a reporter ("some names have been changed to protect identities") and his work is not in the autobiography section at bookstores :p It is very easy to think he draws from life, because he does. However as he draws, he distorts, or even invents wholesale. At best, major characters are merely composites of many people Proust knew. He contained multitudes. There's sadly no one to one correspondences. If there were, his novel would be a bit boring! (How many people as thoroughly silly as Legrandin or Bloch do you really know?) Fiction is the enterprise where we allow ourselves to be beguiled. Life, less so.
So far Swann’s appearance is sporadic and he classifies as a ‘minor’ character in terms of ‘air time’. However, I don’t understand, frankly, why he bothers visiting with Proust’s (real? Imaginary) family, given a) how utterly uninteresting, snobbish and conventional they are when b) he has access to and socialises with a much more interesting set of friends. I am further struck with his determination that conversation should center on minutiae and any inadvertent slip of the tongue on a serious matter has to be mitigated for. I wonder if this was for the benefit of the petit bourgeois and whether he was more open on serious matters with his actor/autjor friends?
I don’t quite know what to make of Proust’s family. Surely they are the most small minded, conventional, traditionally minded, read close minded set that ever populated a tome. Hi aunt Leonie is not just a character: she seems to be the blueprint of an entire class, with her little prejudices and small mindedness. Clearly Proust makes no overt derogatory gestures towards his paterfamilias & cie, but neither does he hide their warts and all. Perhaps the message is that in this nostalgia d’antan, its OK to revere the shortcomings just as much.
Nick wrote: "Yes, one must be very careful to realise just how much of the Search was NOT based on real life people! That is why Proust is an artist, not a reporter ("some names have been changed to protect ide..."Nick,
I completely agree with you, La recherche is first and foremost a work of fiction and we should enjoy at such.
But it has been after all classified as a "roman à clef" and it is hard not to try and look for parallels with real life (even if those parallels are not straight lines), whether in real people (who is who?) or real sites (what was his room like?, how did the kitchen change across time?)..
In fact this is a case in which fiction is stronger than reality. In 1971 the town of Illiers was officially renamed Illiers-Combray, in honor of Proust's fictional place, and in so doing Illiers was claiming its genealogical links with the novel.
knig wrote: "So far Swann’s appearance is sporadic and he classifies as a ‘minor’ character in terms of ‘air time’. However, I don’t understand, frankly, why he bothers visiting with Proust’s (real? Imaginary) ..."I think that the Narrator's family gives Swann a touch of reality that he does not have with the upper crust. He can relax more around them. When you read on, you'll see more of his preference in his personal sphere, over his public sphere.
Proust hinself had publicly stated in his essays that the author is not his work, although the author may have been inspired from his life. Some facts are inspired from life, but once those elements are put into the novel, they develop a life of their own. It's like a master's living creation developing its own personality based on the interactions within its own world.
Kalliope wrote: "this is a case in which fiction is stronger than reality. In 1971 the town of Illiers was officially renamed Illiers-Combray, in honor of Proust's fictional place, and in so doing Illiers was claiming its genealogical links with the novel..."That reminds me of the pomo novel
House of Leaves. It was started as internet short segments, fictitious ideas were started to spread its legend, then it came back into the final novel. This kind of interaction is possible now with the ability for information to go viral in quick time.
Aloha wrote: "Proust hinself had publicly stated in his essays that the author is not his work, although the author may have been inspired from his life. Some facts are inspired from life, but once those elements are put into the novel, they develop a life of their own."I believe we're to read ISOLT as if we're looking at an abstract painting.Our instincts are always to look for the familiar, the recognizable, when we should really let a work of art wash over us, and focus on how it makes us feel, or what it says to us, each one individually.
ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "Aloha wrote: "Proust hinself had publicly stated in his essays that the author is not his work, although the author may have been inspired from his life. Some facts are inspired from life, but once..."I agree. A preconceived idea can help deepen understanding, but it can also make us ignore the obvious.
Aloha wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "this is a case in which fiction is stronger than reality. In 1971 the town of Illiers was officially renamed Illiers-Combray, in honor of Proust's fictional place, and in so doing ..."Aloha, I did not know about House of Leaves. Very interesting. Thank you.
You're welcome, Kalliope. I see that you added it.
Aloha wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "this is a case in which fiction is stronger than reality. In 1971 the town of Illiers was officially renamed Illiers-Combray, in honor of Proust's fictional place, and in so doing ..."Very interesting. So "Combray" is a 100% ficticious name? Or it was inspired by some real place in France. If it is 100% ficticious, I wonder if there was a peculiar reason for Proust to choose it, or maybe he just kept that meaning for himself, in sort of a enigmatic way, you know, like the word "Rosebud" in Citizen's Kane, which would be cool...
Oh, I just have seen in Wikipedia that there does exist a "Combray" in France, but not related to "Combray" the author's imagined village . Anyway, there could be still a hidden reason why Proust choosed particularly that name (but that doesn't matter now, since I liked the enigmatic word theory a lot more)thank you wikipedia for ruining that one :)
Jean-Yves Tadié in Marcel Proust: Biographie says this about the name of Combray: "As for the name of the town, it takes its origin from the castle of Combray, seven kilometers to the north of Lisieux, on the road to Pont-l'Eveque. This provenance is much more likely than the suggestion that it derives from Combourg, from Cambrai, or even Combres, near Illiers. Many Proustian place-names have their roots in this part of Lower Normandy, where the author spent his holidays from 1907 onwards, that is to say during the writing of Du Cote de chez Swann and A l'ombre des jeunes filles en fleurs."
So there was a real place but it was a castle, not a village or town. But Proust must have chosen it for some reason other than it was just there...
I guess the "castle" idea might have brought to mind his idea that the name could help establish the idea of the aristocracy in his book. He might have seen the chateau and though how evocative it was (of the Brabants or Merioingians or whathaveyou) and from there took the name as well. (Illiers does feel more like "Illiers" than a "Combray" to me, though!)
Rosemary wrote: "ReemK10 (Got Proust?) wrote: "http://www.flickr.com/photos/34977978...They speak for themselves."
I visualise the pink hawthorn as more delicate than that - around here (so..."
Yes, I imagined them as this shade of delicate pink which would still stand out from the white.
Andrew wrote: "My favorite comment so far is one of Proustitute's, that Proust's recollections, so detailed and dramatic, force us into recollections of our own, but not really force because we WANT to recollect...."The Saturday lunch sequence's gentle humour reminded me of The Diary of a Nobody.
Nick wrote: "I guess the "castle" idea might have brought to mind his idea that the name could help establish the idea of the aristocracy in his book. He might have seen the chateau and though how evocative it ..."Thanks for the info Mary and Nick. I still wonder why Jean-Yves Tadié in Marcel Proust: Biographie, didnt't talk about this town:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combray
...when saying: As for the name of the town, it takes its origin from the castle of Combray, seven kilometers to the north of Lisieux, on the road to Pont-l'Eveque. This provenance is much more likely than the suggestion that it derives from Combourg, from Cambrai, or even Combres, near Illiers.
According to Wikipedia, there is a castle in that little town as well, (a motte-and-bailey castle).
It's an interesting fact that, according to Wiki (in french), population in that town was only five hundred people in 1821. In my humble opinion, maybe Proust could have chosen the name of this little town to evocate the idea of Combray like a place where everybody knows each other (a place where aunt Leonie could recognize even the appearance of a new dog in town)
In the french wikipedia link:
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combray_(Calvados)
they talk about a church in the town (Église Saint-Martin, xie siècle, très remaniée), maybe with ghotic influence?... makes me wonder!
My other theory is that Proust chosed the name "Combray" because... it sounds cool man, that's all ;)
Mari wrote: "Jean-Yves Tadié in Marcel Proust: Biographie says this about the name of Combray: "As for the name of the town, it takes its origin from the castle of Combray, seven kilometers to the north of Li..."
This is very interesting. Thank you, Mari. I have the Tadié bio, but plan to read it towards the end of 2013.
Spoiler: besides mentioning how his life has become like Tante Leonie's (in The Past Recaptured), he also says that he had taken his father's acute interest in the weather "by becoming sort of a living barometer myself." Referring of course to his terrible asthma...
The Year of Reading Proust
Books mentioned in this topic
Anglo Guide to Survival in Quebec (other topics)Proust in Love (other topics)
Georgiana: Duchess of Devonshire (other topics)
Marcel Proust: Biographie (other topics)
House of Leaves (other topics)
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Yes absolutely - sorry!