The Year of Reading Proust discussion
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Swann’s Way
Swann's Way, vol. 1
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J.A. wrote: "Marcus wrote: my tuppence worth: the link between Swann/Odette and Marcel/Gilberte ...Aloha wrote: It's more of the idea of desiring to possess something...
Also too is the way the Narrator an..."
"Gilberte to the Narrator is very much like the place names he loves so much." - I like this and it's true to my experience, having fallen for someone's name in the past (distant!), rather than for 'them'
J.A. wrote: "Marcus wrote: my tuppence worth: the link between Swann/Odette and Marcel/Gilberte ...Aloha wrote: It's more of the idea of desiring to possess something...
Also too is the way the Narrator an..."
She's like the most important corner stones of Marcel's life combined.
Both Odette and Gilberte also symbolize lifestyles competely different from the ones Swann and Marcel are used to. They are like an enigma, and both don't want to solve it really, they want to keep the magic of filling the unknown parts with imagination.
I liked the melancholic tone at the end of the book, diidn't you?
(Finally caught up and finished book 1 just in time!)
Iselin wrote: "J.A. wrote: "Marcus wrote: my tuppence worth: the link between Swann/Odette and Marcel/Gilberte ...Aloha wrote: It's more of the idea of desiring to possess something...
Also too is the way th..."
not sure that i liked the melancholy but i sure felt it! it stung a bit tbh
Marcus wrote: "isn't the pain related to the fact that someone else has 'it' (the desired object's attention) or at least that's what you imagine to be the case, not just that you don't have it...and that's what jealousy is?Also, to expand the point a bit, there has been some discussion about the similarities between these two relationships (S/O, M/G) but really the similarity is not between the individuals - Swann and the Narrator - but between the characteristics of their pain. As in, it always plays out like this irrespective of the identity of the sufferer. It's an archetypal experience. "
I think the pain can also be from the threat of the desired object being taken away, much as the child Narrator's pain on the nights when Swann visits, thereby causing his mother's absence from his bedside. This is slightly different from the idea of somebody having your desired object. Positive/negative.
I agree with your assessment that it's the common experience, as opposed to the individuality.
Iselin wrote: "J.A. wrote: "Marcus wrote: my tuppence worth: the link between Swann/Odette and Marcel/Gilberte ...Aloha wrote: It's more of the idea of desiring to possess something...
Also too is the way th..."
I agree that it's the enigma (causing fantasy to guess coat it) that is attractive. Once the enigma, and the chase of the enigma is over, then disinterest takes over.
I like the melancholic ending, the sadness over knowing that you couldn't help but made your regretful choices.
I missed the fact that, according the the caption at the Morgan yesterday under the last sentence of a finalized draft of Swann in Love that ends with, "...for a woman who didn't appeal to me, who wasn't even my type!", Swann exclaims this in the dream he had peopled by Mme. Verdurin, Odette, Napoleon III.It pays to go to museums, for me anyway.
And I must go back to the Morgan for a 3rd time because contrary to what I'd stated in my blog about wanting a transcription & translation of an early typed version that he crossed out to add "Longtemps, je me suis couché de bonne heure," it's there. What exactly he wrote, I didn't note...but I will.
Eugene wrote: "I missed the fact that, according the the caption at the Morgan yesterday under the last sentence of a finalized draft of Swann in Love that ends with, "...for a woman who didn't appeal to me, who ..."Eugene, you mean that the last sentence was said in the dream -- in the draft?, or in the final version?. In my reading (final version obviously) I did not understand that he uttered it in the dream, but "une heure après son reveil".
If you go back to the exhibition, let us know what the original first sentence was...
You are very lucky to be able to visit the Morgan exhibit...!
Fionnuala wrote: "Madame X wrote: ".I don't remember what happens & would just as soon wait and find out, ."Yes, that's the best approach.
I've just read all the comments for the week and have been struck by many..."
Yes the section on the Names is wonderful.. I have to reread it (third time..!)... I am beginning to prefer the sections in which the plot is not necessarily advance to those with more happenings. They are more Proustian.
In parallel to reading the book I am listening to the Audio version by Editions Thélème. And there is a change in readers for the Noms de Pays section. The first two (Combray and Amour de Swann) are read brilliantly by André Dussolier, while Lambert Wilson takes over for the last section and continues on to the Ombre des jeunes filles... So the Noms de Pays is given a continuity with the second volume.
Kalliope wrote: "...So the Noms de Pays is given a continuity with the second volume. ."According to the notes in my edition: "dans la répartition initiale du roman, 'nom de pays' recouvrait en effet la fin de l'actuel Swann et les deux premières parties des Jeunes filles en fleur ('Aoutour de Mme Swann', 'Nom de pays: le pays'), qui formaient un tryptique. Sous la contrainte de Grasset, Proust est conduit à couper le premier volume et ajouter les subdivisions que nous connaissons."
So your Audio version may be respecting Proust's original version/vision...
Like you, I really do prefer the reflections on memory and place in 'Combray' and 'Nom de pays' to the sections where characters and motives predominate. Perhaps as I go on, I will understand Proust's rationale for those sections better.
Fionnuala wrote: "Kalliope wrote: "...So the Noms de Pays is given a continuity with the second volume. ."According to the notes in my edition: "dans la répartition initiale du roman, 'nom de pays' recouvrait en ef..."
Thank you for this. First I paid no attention to the change in reader (except for the fact that I was used to the voice), but then I thought that for such a major production it had been done on purpose. The reader Dussolier takes on other sections later on.
Eugene wrote: "I missed the fact that, according the the caption at the Morgan yesterday under the last sentence of a finalized draft of Swann in Love that ends with, "...for a woman who didn't appeal to me, who who wasn't even my type!", Swann exclaims this in the dream he had peopled by Mme. Verdurin, Odette, Napoleon III."I agree with Kalliope on this, Eugene. I think Swann was meant to be awake but that he was thinking about the image of Odette which remained from his dream, that image of le teint pâle d'Odette, les joues trop maigres, les traits tirés, les yeux battus, that initial reaction he'd had to Odette's appearance but which he had managed to wipe from his memory as their relationship developed. That image had remained in his subconcious and been presented to him during the dream. And so the final statement is not said in the dream, nor is it said by the Swann we usually see but by his less melancholy and more cold-blooded self, the self which we only get to see from time to time.
@Kalliope@Fionnuala
It's a subtle movement in the last paragraph from being awake & commanding the hairdresser to thinking of his dream again... But the quotation marks around the last sentence indicate that Swann quotes himself from the dream!
Eugene wrote: "@Kalliope@Fionnuala
It's a subtle movement in the last paragraph from being awake & commanding the hairdresser to thinking of his dream again... But the quotation marks around the last sentence i..."
Eugene, what did the exhibition say?, because I continue to think that he is awake when he utters this.
I also see, like Fionnuala, that the dream had "reawakened" the first impression he got of her, before he fell in love, and that recovered image leads him to realize that he has wasted years of his life away.
There is full stop after the sentence on the dream and the new sentence that leads to the quote sounds like a very rational realization that he can make because he is no longer unhappy. I take it that he utters this with a clear mind.
How is the word "muflerie" translated into English?
Kalliope wrote: "...what did the exhibition say?, because I continue to think that he is awake when he utters this."Yes Swann is awake, hence the quotation marks that Proust uses as if someone else, a dreamer, had said it.
Yes there is a full stop, but before that is "...pendant qu’il dormait, sa mémoire en avait été chercher la sensation exacte." and the sentence after the full stop is "Et avec cette muflerie intermittente qui reparaissait chez lui dès qu’il n’était plus malheureux et que baissait du même coup le niveau de sa moralité, il s’écria en lui-même: «Dire que..." and has the quote from him as a dreamer.
Originally, why I didn't read this as a quote from his dream is this last utterance sounds like a summation of his feelings that I'd heard before. But what it means for his future with me as a real character is that it softens him, it permits him to continue his love for her, it makes it more plausible for what follows: his marriage to Odette, his drastic change of character. Said in a dream, it's conditional; said awake, it's more final.
Next week I will also report what the exhibition caption says exactly, but what I took from it was that the utterance was from Swann's dream--curious, I had reread it to see.
I agree with the Morgan after rereading it several times in French & two English translations. Proust uses all the French past tense, doesn't he.
"muflerie" is translated as caddishness in ML and coarseness in LD
Martin wrote: "I just finished Swann's Way today and I have to admit that I really enjoyed it, despite it being extremely melancholic in it's atmosphere. I had moments of great joy in the descriptions of the Ve..."
Well done Martin, you will be able to catch up with the rest of us soon.
The second volume is wonderful and we are now starting with the third.
Good going, Martin. I would read all seven volumes. The last volume has a wonderful wrap up and a final twist that is beautiful.
I've just finished Swann's Way, I thought it was wonderfully written. I just wanted to thank you for all your great comments, as I've read them along with the book, made the read much more fulfilling. I also have a question. The copy I read was the Scott Moncrief translation (I picked it up in a second hand book shop not realising there were other translations). So my dilemma now, do I carry on with SM or read another translation? Are they so different?, from looking in Waterstones the SM copies are much thicker (not that that's a problem), any advice would be gratefully received, I'm keen to start volume 2. That sentence may be as long as one of Prousts! :-)
I don't think you should get hung up on the translations, although the purists will probably disagree. I listened to a couple of the books on audio and that seemed to me to be a great way to get into Proust.
Anghenn wrote: "I've just finished Swann's Way, I thought it was wonderfully written. I just wanted to thank you for all your great comments, as I've read them along with the book, made the read much more fulfill..."Hello Anghenn,
Maybe this will help:
Lost in Translation: Proust and Scott Moncrieff
http://publicdomainreview.org/2013/11...
Check out this thread: Information & General Threads > Books/Translations to Purchase
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Anghenn wrote: "I've just finished Swann's Way, I thought it was wonderfully written. I just wanted to thank you for all your great comments, as I've read them along with the book, made the read much more fulfill..."I read the entire boxed set of Moncrieff from start to finish and loved it. Carry on...it is a fantastic journey! ;-)
If you´ve enjoyed the style of Moncrieff et al, to now, stick with it, logically.
I´ve not read the recent translation, but Moncrieff´s is to my mind the best piece of sustained (considerably so) translated text I´ve read.
I´ve not read the recent translation, but Moncrieff´s is to my mind the best piece of sustained (considerably so) translated text I´ve read.
Note on names. They crop up in the oddest places. I recently decided to read the New Testament, and found the name Sosthenes. There was a Sosthenes de Guermantes, not a character, really, just someone named once and once only. Can't remember from which volume, though.
Thanks, think I'll stick with what I've read so far. Just had that niggle that it might be a better reading experience in another translation. It's a big commitment. Loved the writing style in Swann's Way, really looking forward to the next book. Thanks again, I'll be using all your posts and comments again as I read the next book.
Anghenn, continue with the translation you've been enjoying. A lot of people don't keep to the commitment of finishing the volumes, and therefore miss out on the complete story, the cycle. Translations of the work is a fascinating topic but secondary to completing the work. I'm glad you're enjoying it!
Waves to the old ISOLT crowd!! Hi Aloha! Hi Elizabeth!You've been missed!!!!Let's all plan on a reread in 2023!
A reunion sounds good, Reem! I'm reading Joyce now, and last year, and maybe next year....Too busy lately.
Elizabeth wrote: "Note on names. They crop up in the oddest places. I recently decided to read the New Testament, and found the name Sosthenes. There was a Sosthènes de Guermantes, not a character, really, just s..."Elizabeth - the Duchesse de Guermantes' name was Marie-Oriane-Zénaïede-Sosthènes de Guermantes. The narrator speaks of her only once as Marie-Sosthènes - in Le Temps Retrouvé when there is a discussion about Gilberte's parentage (view spoiler)
ReemK10 (Paper Pills) wrote: "Waves to the old ISOLT crowd!! Hi Aloha! Hi Elizabeth!You've been missed!!!!Let's all plan on a reread in 2023!"
I plan to reread it.. but will start sooner than that... and may be just a couple of volumes a year.
Fionnuala wrote: "Elizabeth wrote: "Note on names. They crop up in the oddest places. I recently decided to read the New Testament, and found the name Sosthenes. There was a Sosthènes de Guermantes, not a charact..."Incredible memory.. I do not recall the Sosthènes... but I am pretty bad with remembering names...
This site (or possibly my computer) is acting weird. It somehow deleted Kalliope's latest posting, and posted my incomplete one twice. BTW, thanks everyone, for the hellos & remarks. I am presently rereading everything Jane Austen ever wrote, but I'm always up for a reread of Marcel.
Elizabeth wrote: "This site (or possibly my computer) is acting weird. It somehow deleted Kalliope's latest posting, and posted my incomplete one twice. BTW, thanks everyone, for the hellos & remarks. I am presen..."Hello, Elizabeth... you are now a completist Jane Austen... I think Fionnuala is becoming a completist Virginia Woolf...
No, you have not deleted my comment (I don't think you can since one needs to be a Moderator).. but I will delete your 'failed' comments.
Like that word "completist." Am I a completist Marcel Proust? Guess not, since I could not get through "Jean Santeuil." The first part was riveting, but I got bogged down shortly thereafter. Et pour cause!P.s. in 2023 I will be nearly 80...but I'll try to last that long, just for the read.
Hey - I'm a 'completist' Jane Austen too! But I don't like the word as I'd love to think I had another Austen still to read. Another one in the style of Persuasion would suit me nicely...
Fionnuala wrote: "Hey - I'm a 'completist' Jane Austen too! But I don't like the word as I'd love to think I had another Austen still to read. Another one in the style of Persuasion would suit me nicely..."You would not be any persuasion..
I plan to read more Proust.. not sure about Jean Santeuil, but have a few others..
Fionnuala is also a 'completist' (sorry!) of Joyce, I think.
Kalliope wrote: "Fionnuala is also a 'completist' (sorry!) of Joyce, I think."Yes - I'm sorry about that too!
What other Proust's have you got, Kalliope?
Fionnuala wrote: "What other Proust's have you got, Kalliope?"
Let's try and remember..
Matinée Chez La Princesse De Guermantes: Cahiers Du Temps Retrouv ̌
Ecrits Sur L'Art
His translation of La Bible d'Amiens. Traduction, préface et notes de Marcel Proust
Correspondance
And also, in Audio, his letters to his mother (not sure if printed form as well).
For a moment, I didn't know where I was.....like the narrator turning in his bed. Ah, yes...alas, not in 2013.
Marcelita wrote: "For a moment, I didn't know where I was.....like the narrator turning in his bed. Ah, yes...alas, not in 2013."It's wonderful to 'see' all of you. Memories of 2013 abound.
2023 sounds a plan. I'll try to keep the brain cells sparking in anticipation! ;-)
Fionnuala wrote: "Hey - I'm a 'completist' Jane Austen too! But I don't like the word as I'd love to think I had another Austen still to read. Another one in the style of Persuasion would suit me nicely..."Try Fay Weldon's "Letters to Alice on First reading Jane Austen." It's quite good. I'm reading it concurrently with "Pride and Prejudice."
Elizabeth wrote: ".Try Fay Weldon's "Letters to Alice on First reading Jane Austen." It's quite good. I'm reading it concurrently with "Pride and Prejudice.""Elizabeth, would you believe, I read that twenty or more years ago when I was having my Austen phase! I still have it and will reread it one of these years. Enjoy the combination.
The Year of Reading Proust
Books mentioned in this topic
Matinée Chez La Princesse De Guermantes: Cahiers Du Temps Retrouvé (other topics)Écrits sur l'art (other topics)
La Bible d'Amiens. Traduction, préface et notes de Marcel Proust (other topics)
Correspondance (other topics)
The Hare With Amber Eyes: A Family's Century of Art and Loss (other topics)
Aloha wrote: "Marcus wrote: "caught up with the vanguard, at last...thank you moderators for setting up this amazing group - so grateful to be a part of it; my tuppence worth: the link between Swann/Odette and M..."
isn't the pain related to the fact that someone else has 'it' (the desired object's attention) or at least that's what you imagine to be the case, not just that you don't have it...and that's what jealousy is?
Also, to expand the point a bit, there has been some discussion about the similarities between these two relationships (S/O, M/G) but really the similarity is not between the individuals - Swann and the Narrator - but between the characteristics of their pain. As in, it always plays out like this irrespective of the identity of the sufferer. It's an archetypal experience.