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[F2F Book Discussions] October 2012: Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen. Moderator: DC
Day 1: We start with the truth (Volume 1, Chapters 1-5)1. Ms. Austen packs a wallop with the opening sentence - a "universally acknowledged truth" about rich men and the pursuit of marriage. Whether the single men with the good fortune or the ladies vying to be their wives are the pursuers depends on how you read the sentence.
I don't agree with her declaration. Perhaps social or financial status in relation to marriageability was of the utmost importance when the novel was written. Mr. Bingley and Mr. Darcy was introduced with how much good fortune they had (x thousand a year).
2. I have no favorites yet but I like Mr. and Mrs. Bennet's conversation:
"...You take delight in vexing me. You have no compassion on my poor nerves.”
“You mistake me, my dear. I have a high respect for your nerves. They are my old friends. I have heard you mention them with consideration these twenty years at least.”
3. The word 'obliged' is a keyword here -- The gentlemen at the ball were simply too few. She had a social 'obligation' to sit down so other ladies can dance with the men.
4. Mr. Darcy is repeatedly described as a proud person, someone who thinks himself above them. It does not help that he is standoffish. His aloof behavior makes others feel that they are not worth his attention and time. It is telling that Lizzie and the others feel that Mr. Darcy has a right to be proud because of his good fortune, it's just that his attitude rubs them the wrong way.
"A person may be proud without being vain. Pride relates more to our opinion of ourselves; vanity to what we would have others think of us.”
Food for thought. Pride is related to a person's worth (accomplishment and things we value in ourselves) while vanity is about social appearances. A main distinction is that we can be proud of other people but not vain about them. Vanity is self-centered.
5. *pats* Thanks, it's my first read-along and group discussion. It's my first time to read Pride and Prejudice as well. :)
Day 2 (yay!)
1 Charlotte's statement simply means that if a woman "in love" doesn't reveal her affection as evidently as the man does, there's a great probability of losing him in return. This advice is obviously conjured by those who are not privy to the personality of either the woman or man that they start to measure someone's affection through accounting only the surface. This is why Lizzy's counterargument was delivered with a degree of conviction. Unlike Charlotte, she knows her sister too well.
2. Because they thought it was fun? The village was called MERY-TON for a reason anyways. Yeah, it is my final answer. (Don't have any idea at all XD)
3. Mrs Bennett should lead an army with all her strategic plans! Certainly, the odds are in her favor! Seriously though, I could not help but see the desperation in Mrs Bennett willingness to risk her daughter's well being for the sake of a potential marriage. But what can I say, all is fair in love and war. Poor Jane, she should be the one to carry the consequences.
What Lizzy had done though, now that is admirable.
4. He definitely sets the bar too high. He is a person who will not settle down on something that is perceived as fine. He achieves for excellence and in return expects the same thing from other people. This is presumptuous for me to say but when Mr. Darcy described his definition of an accomplished woman, he is describing his girl version. He only sees a woman accomplished if she did what he had done, achieved what he had achieved, learned what he had learned. That's pride more than anything else.
---I forgot to pat myself so...*pats*. Though this is a re-read, it's the first time I engaged in a group discussion. I enjoyed all your answers.
1 Charlotte's statement simply means that if a woman "in love" doesn't reveal her affection as evidently as the man does, there's a great probability of losing him in return. This advice is obviously conjured by those who are not privy to the personality of either the woman or man that they start to measure someone's affection through accounting only the surface. This is why Lizzy's counterargument was delivered with a degree of conviction. Unlike Charlotte, she knows her sister too well.
2. Because they thought it was fun? The village was called MERY-TON for a reason anyways. Yeah, it is my final answer. (Don't have any idea at all XD)
3. Mrs Bennett should lead an army with all her strategic plans! Certainly, the odds are in her favor! Seriously though, I could not help but see the desperation in Mrs Bennett willingness to risk her daughter's well being for the sake of a potential marriage. But what can I say, all is fair in love and war. Poor Jane, she should be the one to carry the consequences.
What Lizzy had done though, now that is admirable.
4. He definitely sets the bar too high. He is a person who will not settle down on something that is perceived as fine. He achieves for excellence and in return expects the same thing from other people. This is presumptuous for me to say but when Mr. Darcy described his definition of an accomplished woman, he is describing his girl version. He only sees a woman accomplished if she did what he had done, achieved what he had achieved, learned what he had learned. That's pride more than anything else.
---I forgot to pat myself so...*pats*. Though this is a re-read, it's the first time I engaged in a group discussion. I enjoyed all your answers.
Day 2? I should have extra points! The testing took me all night! *wink wink
Welcome, Tin and Maru! So glad you could join us :)Kate wrote: "If Mr. Darcy was born on the other side of the fence, I think he would find another way to act prideful. But that's just my opinion :) "
>>> Haha! We can't discount the "relative to your circumstances" argument after all :)
Kate wrote: "This is why Lizzy's counterargument was delivered with a degree of conviction. Unlike Charlotte, she knows her sister too well. "
>>> So, who do you think is more correct in this situation? Lizzy or Charlotte?
Kate wrote: "He definitely sets the bar too high. He is a person who will not settle down on something that is perceived as fine. He achieves for excellence and in return expects the same thing from other people. This is presumptuous for me to say but when Mr. Darcy described his definition of an accomplished woman, he is describing his girl version. He only sees a woman accomplished if she did what he had done, achieved what he had achieved, learned what he had learned. That's pride more than anything else."
>>> Judging by Miss Bingley and Mrs Hurst's reaction, however, do you not think that perhaps this was the prevailing notion of the time, and perhaps not owing to his pride? [BTW - glad you're enjoying so far!]
Angus wrote: "I suppose this is still prevalent in traditional Chinese and Moslem families?"
>>> Hah, true this.
Angus wrote: "A lot of people mistake "pride" from "proud". We have the common consonants to blame."
>>> Oh? What's the difference, then?
Nice, really Old English :) --> http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/chuse | http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Neice | http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shew
Angus wrote: "Day 2? I should have extra points! The testing took me all night! *wink wink"
>>> You get super awesome extra brownie points! ;) *wink wink*
Cary wrote: "I love the trivia.. I just wish guys of today still do the same etiquette. oh, how i love austen's time haha "
>>> Haha, as nice as it is, I think society would have evolved to the highest form of a sarcastic race if this were the case xD #personalopinion
Tin wrote: "1. Not really but most likely. Hence reality shows like The Millionaire Matchmaker, The Bachelor etc. etc."
>>> Interesting note on this! I had not thought of this modern angle :) [As for for #3, I think the others have discussed it as well in their own answers. Maybe you could go over them and let us know what you think? :)]
Tin wrote: "As to the "right to be proud", sure, but not to the point of rudeness and conceit."
>>> Do you think that there is a fine line between this "right to be proud" as compared to the "point of rudeness and conceit"? [And congrats for the first time you've read it! And welcome, once again, to the discussion! :D]
AennA wrote: "I cannot help but snort and agree with Elizabeth, for we have the same thought on this matter"
>>> If that's the case, then do you think that Jane should not take any more steps in attempting to "secure" Bingley? When you agree with Lizzy in her statement, do you mean it for both sexes, or for women in particular?
AennA wrote: "I would like to claim I am not a proud person, but I am full of pride when it comes to myself. Ako na!"
>>> I rather like this statement :) Go Aenna!
Tina wrote: "I think the elder Bennett sisters were already in the "warning" zone, that Mrs. Bennett is starting to worry."
>>> Warning zone? What do you mean by this? Do you personally feel you have your own "warning zone"?
Tina wrote: "I've always liked his character, especially with how he (lovingly) mocks Mrs. Bennett. :)"
>>> Do you really believe he does it lovingly? :) (DC the non-moderator asks) [Will look forward to your answer for #4!]
Maru wrote: "Whether the single men with the good fortune or the ladies vying to be their wives are the pursuers depends on how you read the sentence."
>>> I will have to admit that I find interesting this observation of yours. In your opinion, which of two is it? The men's side or the women's? Or is it both, or neither?
Maru wrote: "She had a social 'obligation' to sit down so other ladies can dance with the men."
>>> I think this tidbit has yet to be brought up so far, so good job on being the first to mention this! :D [I also like your thoughts about pride and vanity. Nice! Welcome, too, first-time reader!]
Hello again, everyone! After two days of verbose discussions, on Day 3 - we're taking it rather lightly. If you're new to the discussion, we are still looking forward to your thoughts, so please go ahead and indulge in answering any of the previous questions, or just go and post what you think of the chapters so far :)I'll also be giving out an assignment. I will look forward to your answers for this homework by Monday or Tuesday (Day 5/6) next week :) [Additional notes for this assignment may be in the chapters after the current ones (for Day 3, that is) for discussion.]
Day 3: The pleasure of a tolerable answer (Book 1, Chapters 9-14)
What happened in these chapters: (view spoiler)
1. Using as polite and genteel language as possible, describe the evenings Elizabeth had at Netherfield. Go ahead and use sarcasm, if you wish to do so.
2. [Random WTF] “No, no, stay where you are. You are charmingly grouped, and appear to uncommon advantage. The picturesque would be spoiled by admitting a fourth.” (Chap. 10) Why do you think the road was wide enough for only 3 people?
3. Describe Mr. Collins without using the word “self”. If possible, describe him in his own manner of speaking.
The Assignment:
Choose from one or the other (or do both, if you wish!):
>>> a. Pretend you are a fashion magazine writer. Indulge in describing the outfits of the ladies and men so far mentioned. Use photos, if necessary. Be as critical or approving as you wish. Compare and contrast, and note what clothes symbolize/mean (if they do symbolize or mean anything) in this book.
>>> b. Pretend you are an etiquette critic. Indulge in describing the ways of the ladies and men so far mentioned. Use photos, if necessary. Be as critical or approving as you wish. Compare and contrast, and note what etiquette symbolizes/means (if it does symbolize or mean anything) in this book.
Vocabulary check: "sennight", "quadrille". Are there any other foreign words you’ve read about?
Trivia: Nervous newcomers to house parties could look to an increasing number of books being published at that time about "conduct" and "morality" which offered all sorts of advice as to appropriate behavior in social interaction.
The word lottery is thought to come from the Italian word lotto, meaning "destiny" or "fate". Private lotteries were very common in England until they were largely banned in 1826.
Whist | Vingt-et-un (also: Blackjack) | Quadrille
Check out Day 2's questions here: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
DC wrote: "What about you? Do you personally believe that it is a shortcoming, this pride?"I don't believe that it is basically a shortcoming. Pride is one thing; douchebaggery is quite another.
Now on to Day 2:
1. I don't think that this observation is necessarily exclusive to the period in which it was spoken. I think it's imperative that the pursued make their sentiments known even to the most steadfast of pursuers, lest the latter ultimately pursue others.
2. The redcoats were billeted in Meryton in anticipation of an attack by Napoleon's forces.
3. I thought Mrs. Bennet was clever in thinking up such a tactic, Jane's going on horseback in order that she might be asked to spend the night at the Bingleys' should it rain, which, as predicted by Mrs. Bennet, it did. As I'm no horseback rider, I certainly wouldn't have gone on horseback (also for fear of spending the rest of my life as a paraplegic in the event of my falling head over heels, but not in love, obviously). I do enjoy long walks, though.
4. Darcy, in keeping with his unsettling pride, won't settle for anything less in a woman than what he thinks he deserves. (Pume-Perks? lol)
5. To paraphrase Charlotte's observation: "If Darcy conceals his affection with the same skill from the object of it, he may lose the opportunity of fixing her.”
kind oF busy yesterday but i will take time to answer DAY 2 and 3 questi0ns later
Because I thrive in cramming, I shall answer everything I could in one go, haha! And I'll make it short and sweet since my posts of late have been really long. :)Day 1: We start with the truth (Volume 1, Chapters 1-5)
1. I think it says a lot about society in Jane Austen's time. It may be too presumptuous, or even scathing and sexist for some, but there is a grain of truth in it somehow. Also, I think this is Austen's way of telling us the main theme for the book, so it's pretty interesting. That opening statement packs a wallop, too.
2. Elizabeth Bennet, of course. I really look up to her because she's so smart and not afraid to speak her mind. I also like Mr. Bennet. I feel quite sorry for Mary, though. It seems to me like she does not have a really close friend (like Jane and Lizzy, and Kitty and Lydia) so I think she's just trying to impress everyone with her knowledge to gain approval, because she's such a wallflower compared to her sisters.
And yes, I think there are still families who do this. I'm going with Angus's example of Chinese and Moslem families.
3. I think this just means that she wanted to give others a chance to dance more than dancing herself. Maybe she preferred to converse with the other (maybe older) guests, deterring the gentlemen from asking her.
4. There were comments about pride being acceptable for the elites, but this is cleared up when Austen cleverly inserts the difference between pride and
5. *pats*
Day 2: Let’s all begin freely (Book 1, Chapters 6-8)
What happened in these chapters: (view spoiler)
1. I interpreted is as "if the girl plays hard to get.. for her, it will be hard to get a man." In this era, people die younger than people today, and people are forced to live life to fullest asap, so I guess there's simply no time to lose in trivial beating-around-the-bush games. However, like what Elizabeth said, the personality of the person should be taken into consideration. If she, like Jane, is naturally demure, it would be too much to expect a drastic change just to "fix a man up". Whatever, I think if Bingley really likes her, he should totally go for it, regardless. At least he can say that he tried his best, diba. Try and try until you die! :))
2. I think the British had a war with the US, or with the French? Or both? Google will know! :o Anyway, they must have used Meryton as a rest stop or temporary base.
3. In her goal of fixing up Jane and Mr. Bingley, Mrs. Bennet seems to be doing a marvelous job. She should be the commander of the red coats instead of whathisname. For Lizzy, though... well, she's unstoppable. I really love her. I'm going to imagine myself in all of their shoes. For Jane, I would obey, being the meek, good daughter that I am. Besides, complaining would be too bratty, which is a no-no for a lady. Mrs. Bennet mode: uh, no. I don't want to risk my daughters getting sick. Lizzy: Oh yes. Walking is lovely. I love walking. Oh, and defending the sister, of course.
4. Even if there are women like Darcy described, I would highly doubt their humanity. It's not that it's impossible, but it's impractical to spread yourself out too thinly just to have all those talents nowadays when you could focus on something you are particularly good at and secure your future instead.
Darcy is being a perfectionist, as usual. I think he's just looking for a female version of himself. I don't think it's wholly unreasonable for him, though. Being the owner of Pemberley, which reins in about 10,000 pounds a year (10,000! Imagine how big Mrs. Bennet's eyes would bulge - that's a million dollars in today's era*), his wife should be someone of good stature. Good stature and classiness in those times usually requires many of the traits Caroline mentioned. The upper classes have not much to do, but what they could afford to do with their spare time is important, because that is how they could also show add some social status points to them.
*'The Cambridge Companion to Jane Austen' edited by Edward Copeland and Juliet McMaster
5. This is fun! Here goes.
Mr. Darcy denies his growing feelings considering he's never experienced cheekiness like Lizzy's. Its wholly-different-territory feel is new but he doesn't know how to control it, hence his seeming coldness/indifference. He could never stop thinking of her, though. The truly interesting things will be the thoughts in his mind where he could be honest with himself, but they will only stick there to keep up society's esteem of himself. This will come out sometime, though. So excited for the next events! Nyehehehe.
-----
Okay, that wasn't short AND sweet, but hopefully it still counts as sweet? :D
Day 2:1. What does the following quote mean for that period? What does it mean for you? “If a woman conceals her affection with the same skill from the object of it, she may lose the opportunity of fixing him.” (Chap. 6)
-Don't overplay the hard-to-get card. A woman should give at least a hint that she is interested in the object of her marital desires.
2. [History] Why did a bunch of redcoats (“officers”) come to Meryton?
-Pass. I cannot be bothered to research.
3. What are your thoughts about the maneuver of Mrs. Bennett making Jane go on horseback, as opposed to Lizzy going on foot? Would you have done the same in either’s steed stead?
-I find it a little desperate and very uncaring. I mean, Jane is, after all, her daughter. Why would a mother risk her daughter's health in order to secure her a bountiful marriage?
4. “I never saw such a woman. I never saw such capacity, and taste, and application, as you describe, united.” (Chap. 8) While Miss Bingley and Mrs. Hurst both cried out against the injustice of Elizabeth’s implied doubt, do you think you have ever truly seen such a woman as Darcy describes here? What do you think of Darcy’s idea of an accomplished woman? What does it implicate for those times?
-I have seen women like that: pretty, elegant, smart, accomplished, well-off, has sound judgment, has good moral character. She's my high school best friend. And she's single.
However, this is a very relative question because we have different standards of beauty and accomplishments. Regarding Mr Darcy's idea, it is very ideal given that century where women are not empowered. It almost sounds like a mere fancy of Mr Darcy.
5. [Random WTF] Talk about Darcy’s disgust / attraction. Avoid using words with the letter “a”.
-I'm not disgusted with the guy who keeps eyeing our Lizzy. I find him very mysterious. He seems to me like Mr Rochester, only more good looking. Hehe, the prohibited letter did not show up in these sentences.
Day 3:1. Using as polite and genteel language as possible, describe the evenings Elizabeth had at Netherfield. Go ahead and use sarcasm, if you wish to do so.
-VERY charming evenings. Elizabeth couldn't be more grateful with the lovely time that she spent at Netherfield, what with the hosts not talking to her most of the time.
2. [Random WTF] “No, no, stay where you are. You are charmingly grouped, and appear to uncommon advantage. The picturesque would be spoiled by admitting a fourth.” (Chap. 10) Why do you think the road was wide enough for only 3 people?
-Architectural and engineering issues?
3. Describe Mr. Collins without using the word “self”. If possible, describe him in his own manner of speaking.
-Apologies for not properly addressing this inquiry for Mr Collins barely made an impression on my humble mind. I fear that he is a mere nuisance to Elizabeth's and Mr Darcy's psychological flirtations; actually, to the novel in general. But it cannot be denied that he will impact the story line as far as the living conditions of the Bennetts are concerned. There is a sense of foreboding in his arrival because of its abruptness. That is all.
>>> a. Pretend you are a fashion magazine writer. Indulge in describing the outfits of the ladies and men so far mentioned. Use photos, if necessary. Be as critical or approving as you wish. Compare and contrast, and note what clothes symbolize/mean (if they do symbolize or mean anything) in this book.
-Dull clothes = dull characters. I am honestly influenced by the little snippets that I saw last night during our live stream test.
However, Mr Darcy, in the book, was called proud by other people, yes? What can you say about the attitude of, for example, the Bennett family towards him?The Bennet’s reaction to Mr. Darcy is kindda generic, no? People believe in the concept that a good person should be agreeable with everyone. Being one among the residents of Meryton, they believe that Mr. Darcy should be amicable with everyone in the shire, that he should set aside his being while being hosted there. But that doesn’t agree with everyone. Some people have difficulty setting aside who they really are just to please their host/s. I think I agree with Elizabeth, Mr. Darcy’s pride would have been agreeable if it had not mortified others’ pride.
Day 2:
1.What does the following quote mean for that period? What does it mean for you? “If a woman conceals her affection with the same skill from the object of it, she may lose the opportunity of fixing him.” (Chap. 6)
Is it too presumptuous to convey one’s feelings without the restrictions of society, but making a measured point to avoid vulgarity? I don’t think this notion is restricted to that era. Having no better phrase to describe it –“kapag kime ka, iiwanan ka ng tren.” But kidding aside, I agree with Charlotte. Showing hints of affection encourage relationships. And yes, how can two people get to know better if they are hardly given time to do so, except in balls? I can’t say I hate English courtship, but it’s too limited, too formal, and too pretentious.
2. [History] Why did a bunch of redcoats (“officers”) come to Meryton?
Wasn’t Meryton a fictional place? Nevertheless, a militia regiment was quartered in the said market village in preparation for Napoleon’s probable advancement.
3. What are your thoughts about the maneuver of Mrs. Bennett making Jane go on horseback, as opposed to Lizzy going on foot? Would you have done the same in either’s steed stead?
I did mention on my status update that Mrs. Bennet can teach a thing or two about marriage marketing. The woman went into every extent to fetch her daughter a rich husband, even allowing her daughter to convalesce in another’s house; and very disagreeable with any intrusions, insomuch as allowed Lizzy to walk for miles.
4. “I never saw such a woman. I never saw such capacity, and taste, and application, as you describe, united.” (Chap. 8) While Miss Bingley and Mrs. Hurst both cried out against the injustice of Elizabeth’s implied doubt, do you think you have ever truly seen such a woman as Darcy describes here? What do you think of Darcy’s idea of an accomplished woman? What does it implicate for those times?
I believe Mr. Darcy was describing a female version of himself. And I agree with Lizzy, I don’t think a woman of that stature exist yet in that time. Women were limited to accomplish things in that era. I don’t think they were even allowed to have university education then. Women who read a lot were referred as an oddity too.
But then again, he might have mentioned it just to put off Ms Bingley.
5. [Random WTF] Talk about Darcy’s disgust / attraction. Avoid using words with the letter “a”.
He is the non-shy male version of Jane Bennet. He should not have mentioned his attraction with Lizzy to Ms. Bingley. (view spoiler)
Later with Day 3 questions...
Re: Day 1Haha, I like this answer. The follow-up to this will probably be made several days from now, as it seems to answer another question I have in mind, but for a future date xD
I got curious about the follow-up question you had in mind. I'll be looking forward to it :D
I want to add to my first answer: In the first line, we can already see the old way of life where men only have the right to own property and have possession.
Mrs. Bennett seems to be exasperated about him though, doesn't she?
Yes she is but I think Mr. Bennet likes her to be exasperated. It was like in the first part where he let her believe that he did not visit Mr. Bingley. He was making fun of her and teasing her though I think that was a reason why he loves her (Okay, too mushy. I'll stop now). They're just too opposite.
Oh, I did not pat my back, I gave myself a chocolate instead haha
~~~*~~~
Day 2 (Book 1, Chapters 6-8)
1) It said in this statement that if a woman would not take advantage or do something (i.e. flirt and the like) to the object of it (which is the man), she may lose her opportunity (of getting married). Clearly, she already referred a man as an object. We can see that this is a perception of a woman hunting for men who were out in the market.
2) They get stationed to Meryton, right? If not, they come to spend their time before they get stationed anywhere. And yes, to socialize and find a wife because they are particularly another option for marriage.
3 Lizzy persisted to walk because of her own intentions to see her beloved sister. Mrs. Bennet did not bother to assist her as she would not gain anything by it. But as for Jane, it was a match making.
If it’s in real life, I would say: desperate much? But when reading this, I find it funny. Mrs. Bennet is really something. This foxy lady achieved what she perceived. But I think it was too risky because it was Jane’s, her daughter, health she was using as a pawn. It was like choosing money over family and/or health. And they are not rich, what if the Bingleys did not help her or something?
Honestly, I would never know what I will do because the situation of then and now is different. I do not know how I will act if I live during that era.
4) I like this part where Elizabeth strongly disagrees with them on how it is impossible for such a woman to exist. Mr. Darcy was describing a perfect and flawless woman who we might say an imagination. Maybe it was his ideal lady because he might be setting his own standards. I have not and will not ever see such a woman. Miss Bingley and Mrs. Hurst showed scorn to Elizabeth because I think that perfection was what they were aiming to be.
5) It’s funny plus pitiful. He merely circumvent his feelings since he prejudice her position.
Kilig, too. --> no English word exists. XD
Oh I like the trivia section ;)
Day 3: The pleasure of a tolerable answer (Book 1, Chapters 9-14)1) Lizzy had productive and fruitful evenings with pleasantly warm company from her aristocratic friends (who do not back stab her, mind you).
2) Because when you’re with more than three people, you do not have to walk in horizontal line (side by side) unless you’re advocates in rally which the place will be no good to organize a mob.
3) He is ostentatious and a suck-up. He tries to capture the attention of his listeners, apologizing all over and complimenting in wrong places. He is also bringing up the name of Lady Catherine de Bourgh once in a while and I think he is not truly devoted in being a clergy. It’s like he is living to please Lady Catherine to increase his social standing.
So, who do you think is more correct in this situation? Lizzy or Charlotte?
On account of Jane, definitely Lizzy. Unlike Charlotte, she knows that Jane is quite a shy girl who could only do so much to show her feelings to Mr. Bingley. But just like she said, despite the shyness, Jane radiates that affection. If the man failed to see that, then he doesn't really understand her character.
Judging by Miss Bingley and Mrs Hurst's reaction, however, do you not think that perhaps this was the prevailing notion of the time, and perhaps not owing to his pride?
Oh Miss Bingley and Mrs Hurst! You and I both know that these women -especially Miss Bingley- quickly squelched Lizzy's claim mostly to ingratiate themselves with him. Their reaction has no more underlying meaning other than the notion of desiring to be in Mr. Darcy's good graces.
Day 3
1. Before they went home, Elizabeth should have suggested a pajama party with both Mrs. Hurst and Ms. Bingley. It would definitely be peaceful. Look at how Lizzy enjoyed her time in Netherfield with both women- particularly with Ms Bingley! I bet if Lizzy has smartphone she already marked the days she spent with them. There would be words like death or dying and boredom in between.
Or something.
2. Because it is a principle of Construction to only create roads (or sidewalks) wide enough for one friend to be always left behind!
3. He is the most boring young lad indeed. It always gave me much uneasiness to label a person basic for I want to be in good terms with anyone but this subject begs me to momentarily forget and reveal my real thoughts. I hope for your forgiveness in the future but today I feel it is my duty to shew the emptiness of his flattery and gallantry. However, I completely understand the importance of his role in regard to the future of Mr Bennett's daughters.
(puro nalang I, I, I. XD)
On account of Jane, definitely Lizzy. Unlike Charlotte, she knows that Jane is quite a shy girl who could only do so much to show her feelings to Mr. Bingley. But just like she said, despite the shyness, Jane radiates that affection. If the man failed to see that, then he doesn't really understand her character.
Judging by Miss Bingley and Mrs Hurst's reaction, however, do you not think that perhaps this was the prevailing notion of the time, and perhaps not owing to his pride?
Oh Miss Bingley and Mrs Hurst! You and I both know that these women -especially Miss Bingley- quickly squelched Lizzy's claim mostly to ingratiate themselves with him. Their reaction has no more underlying meaning other than the notion of desiring to be in Mr. Darcy's good graces.
Day 3
1. Before they went home, Elizabeth should have suggested a pajama party with both Mrs. Hurst and Ms. Bingley. It would definitely be peaceful. Look at how Lizzy enjoyed her time in Netherfield with both women- particularly with Ms Bingley! I bet if Lizzy has smartphone she already marked the days she spent with them. There would be words like death or dying and boredom in between.
Or something.
2. Because it is a principle of Construction to only create roads (or sidewalks) wide enough for one friend to be always left behind!
3. He is the most boring young lad indeed. It always gave me much uneasiness to label a person basic for I want to be in good terms with anyone but this subject begs me to momentarily forget and reveal my real thoughts. I hope for your forgiveness in the future but today I feel it is my duty to shew the emptiness of his flattery and gallantry. However, I completely understand the importance of his role in regard to the future of Mr Bennett's daughters.
(puro nalang I, I, I. XD)
DC wrote: "Le gasp! Do you think, then, that Darcy was trollin' those people? Or is there a legit source for his being a proud d-bag?> LOL! No, not necessarily trolling. His wealth and social status are the obvious sources of his pride, but then again there are other men of equal or greater status that are far more pleasant. Dear Mr. Darcy, what is your childhood trauma? (Just kidding. But... Buffy reference, yay! :P)
Day 2: Let’s all begin freely (Book 1, Chapters 6-8)
1. I guess it means that reticence will result in the man thinking he has no chance, leasing him to pursue someone else. It's good for a woman to show a bit of interest in order to give the man enough hope and for him to keep pursuing her. I suppose that makes sense, although the reasoning behind it is something I don't necessarily agree with. Ensuring a relationship regardless of one's true feelings? Or, to quote Charlotte: "In nine cases of out of ten a woman had better show more affection than she feels." No. Just no.
2. I think it has something to do with the Napoleonic wars.
3. This was a bit of cunning on the part of Mrs. Bennett. It's was obviously part of her tactics of making sure Jane ends up with Mr. Bingley. (Ten points for Mr. Bennett: "If she should die, it would be a comfort to know that it was all in pursuit of Mr. Bingley, and under your orders." LOL.) Lizzy's insistence on going on foot emphasizes the fact that her only motivation for going was her concern for her sister.
4. Darcy's idea of an accomplished woman is a reflection of his egotism. He thinks so highly of himself that he set an impossible standard for someone worthy of his praise.
5. He is very much aware of how Lizzy doesn't fit his standards and yet he is intrigued by her.
(Day 3 answers to follow.)
Day 2!1. This has almost the same meaning as the saying: “feint heart never won prince charming.” Women should show signs of interest during courtship for the men to pursue them with earnest.
2. I don't know why the red coats came to Meryton. Bakit nga ba? They were just stationed there I guess for a reason that I do not know.
3. Grabe ah, strategic thinker talaga si Mrs. Bennett. But it's a bit too much to allow your daughter to get sick just to snag a guy. Other tactics, na less hazardous to the health would have been better considering na ina siya ni Jane at Elizabeth.
4. I guess there is great weight on women being adept in the arts back then for Darcy to consider excellence in singing, drawing, and dancing as traits of his ideal woman. I don’t think these traits are of priority in the present time. And oh kudos to him wanting a well-read woman.
5.I feel that Mr. Darcy is a Katy Perry song: “You’re hot and you’re cold, you’re yes and you’re no, you’re in and you’re out....” :)
LOL at Tin's answer for No. 5! :D
Day 2: Let’s all begin freely (Book 1, Chapters 6-8)1. What does the following quote mean for that period? What does it mean for you? “If a woman conceals her affection with the same skill from the object of it, she may lose the opportunity of fixing him.” (Chap. 6)
In Austen's time, the rules of and opportunity for courtship were/was so restricted/restrictive that a lady, if she's interested in a gentleman, must communicate to him that she likes him and so encourage a proposal. She must strike the right balance for she also doesn't want him to think her impertinent.
If I were a gentleman in her time and I fall for a lady, I don't think any skill can conceal her affection for me if she really likes me. I'll be able to see it in her eyes and gestures.
2. [History] Why did a bunch of redcoats (“officers”) come to Meryton?
Wasn't England at war with France during this period? Maybe they simply wanted to chase after girls. I have no idea.
3. What are your thoughts about the maneuver of Mrs. Bennett making Jane go on horseback, as opposed to Lizzy going on foot? Would you have done the same in either’s steed stead?
Maybe she simply likes Jane more than Lizzy. Or was it Lizzy who insisted on walking?
Either way, Mrs. Bennet's mission in life as a mother was to see her daughters be well-settled in marriage. In a way, I could empathize with her, even though see often got in the nerve of some of her daughters, because she was only worried that they might end up destitute, and in their time the danger was very real.
4. “I never saw such a woman. I never saw such capacity, and taste, and application, as you describe, united.” (Chap. 8) While Miss Bingley and Mrs. Hurst both cried out against the injustice of Elizabeth’s implied doubt, do you think you have ever truly seen such a woman as Darcy describes here?
Maybe such women did exist in Lizzy's time. Perhaps her view was only limited to her society and neighborhood, so that she didn't have the opportunity of meeting ladies who are as accomplished as Darcy described them...
What do you think of Darcy’s idea of an accomplished woman? What does it implicate for those times?
... But then again perhaps Darcy was just being unrealistic. Perhaps his ideal woman did not exist. Perhaps his idea of an accomplished woman was only that -- an idea. Perhaps he was wrong all along: maybe he only realized belatedly that the qualities he was looking for was really embodied by someone like Lizzy: The perfect woman need not be accomplished.
5. [Random WTF] Talk about Darcy’s disgust / attraction. Avoid using words with the letter “a”.
I was going to say that I found him "amusing"... I think that he already made up his mind before he went to the assembly at Meryton: the ball was going to be intolerable because he will be entering a society beneath his own. So he expected to be displeased. Little did he know that he's going to be bewitched, bothered and bewildered that night.
"Trivia:
Etiquette for men: If the ladies of the group are of the formally educated sort, compliment them by channeling the conversation into areas of their developing expertise. If they are not, avoid political, scientific, and commercial subjects. Stick only to subjects that might interest them. If you're not sure--hope there's some other gentleman in the crowd that'll take the leap for you. If it's a mixed bag of people, create a distraction, and run.
"Etiquette for men: If she's on foot, so must you be. Dismount. If you know her well enough to address her, take no half-measures! Turn right around and walk beside her, even if she's headed in the opposite direction. When you've spoken your piece, you may take your leave."
Very interesting!
"1 mile = 1.609 km. Lizzy walked 3 miles, or something close to a 5km marathon."
No wonder her eyes and face were brightened! :D
Day 3: The pleasure of a tolerable answer (Book 1, Chapters 9-14)1. Using as polite and genteel language as possible, describe the evenings Elizabeth had at Netherfield. Go ahead and use sarcasm, if you wish to do so.
The Netherfield party, except Mr. Bingley, of course, got on Lizzy's nerves, especially his sisters. It was very unpleasant for her because she didn't really like them. Jane's condition added to her worry.
But, at the same time, she was also amused by Miss Bingley's behavior towards Mr. Darcy, and the latter's complete indifference towards the former.
2. [Random WTF] “No, no, stay where you are. You are charmingly grouped, and appear to uncommon advantage. The picturesque would be spoiled by admitting a fourth.” (Chap. 10) Why do you think the road was wide enough for only 3 people?
I have no idea. Maybe the passage was just designed that way? :)
3. Describe Mr. Collins without using the word “self”. If possible, describe him in his own manner of speaking.
Mr. Bennet described him perfectly when he said that Mr. Collins is a mixture of humility and conceit. :)
Mr. Collins is quite the character. He is verbose, and eloquent even, but he is not sensible, because he has an inordinate regard for Lady Catherine de Bourgh and her rank and status. No amount of speech can make up for his want of sense and good-breeding (or perhaps it is precisely his long-winded speech and bizarre manner of expressing himself that betrays his true character). He knows Rosings Park inside and out; he has memorized the number of windows, doors, trees in the garden, furniture, and we wouldn't be surprised if he also has committed to memory the number of china and other utensils the great Lady has in her possession, considering that they are so fortunate as to dine there twice a week!
Mr. Collins is a very generous man, so if you invite him to your cottage, be prepared to be bombarded by praises. No fixture will escape his notice. He will praise everything. But he will put this into perspective: your living room is almost as big as her ladyship's servant's quarters. But don't fret; be assured that Rosing's Park is unimaginably huge so that he's actually paying you a compliment with the comparison.
"Vocabulary check: "sennight", "quadrille". Are there any other foreign words you’ve read about?"My edition has a glossary of terms, so I learned old words anew. And such beautiful words they are. I wonder why they aren't used more often.
"Trivia: Nervous newcomers to house parties could look to an increasing number of books being published at that time about "conduct" and "morality" which offered all sorts of advice as to appropriate behavior in social interaction."Fascinating!
DC wrote: I will have to admit that I find interesting this observation of yours. In your opinion, which of two is it? The men's side or the women's? Or is it both, or neither?I think both are pursuers, but society in that era made the "marriage market" of more importance to women. Their plight during that time was awful -- their good fortune depends on a well-off marriage. This can be deduced by: a.) entailment - Mr. Bennett's fortune will not be inherited by his daughters but by a distant male relation and b.) the schemes women ran to snag a rich husband -- Ms. Bennet endeavouring to marry off her daughters to gentlemen of good fortune and Charlotte's advice that women should act in a certain way to "fix" and "secure" a man and also not to expect happiness in marriage. Darcy points out later that these "arts ladies sometimes condescend to employ for captivation" are despicable. But can you blame the ladies when society makes it a necessity for them to marry advantageously and for practical reasons?
Day 2: Let’s all begin freely (Book 1, Chapters 6-8)
1. What does the following quote mean for that period? What does it mean for you? “If a woman conceals her affection with the same skill from the object of it, she may lose the opportunity of fixing him.” (Chap. 6)
I interpreted the statement as Courtship 101 from Charlotte: "A woman should be demonstrative with her affections, lest she lose her chance of securing the man's love." I agree with this, courtship should not be one-sided.
However, I don't agree with her views on the next few sentences (It smacks of cunning and deliberation regarding relationships):
"...We can all begin freely — a slight preference is natural enough; but there are very few of us who have heart enough to be really in love without encouragement. In nine cases out of ten a women had better show more affection than she feels... When she is secure of him, there will be more leisure for falling in love as much as she chooses."
"Happiness in marriage is entirely a matter of chance. If the dispositions of the parties are ever so well known to each other or ever so similar beforehand, it does not advance their felicity in the least. They always continue to grow sufficiently unlike afterwards to have their share of vexation; and it is better to know as little as possible of the defects of the person with whom you are to pass your life."
2. [History] Why did a bunch of redcoats (“officers”) come to Meryton?
The area was relatively peaceful but maybe they were preparing for war so they stationed soldiers there. I have no idea. ^^
3. What are your thoughts about the maneuver of Mrs. Bennett making Jane go on horseback, as opposed to Lizzy going on foot? Would you have done the same in either’s stead?
Mrs. Bennett is clever to make Jane go on horseback, so that the latter will have to spend the night on Bingley's estate. It seems desperate too, Mrs. Bennett risking her daughter's health so Jane can spend more time with Mr. Bingley.
I admire Lizzy for walking that far. It just shows that she is a spirited woman who cares more about her sister's welfare than what others think about her actions. A single lady walking unaccompanied for a very long walk was considered unusual during her time.
4.“I never saw such a woman. I never saw such capacity, and taste, and application, as you describe, united.” (Chap. 8) While Miss Bingley and Mrs. Hurst both cried out against the injustice of Elizabeth’s implied doubt, do you think you have ever truly seen such a woman as Darcy describes here? What do you think of Darcy’s idea of an accomplished woman? What does it implicate for those times?
I think that Darcy's idea of an accomplished woman is great. For that period, women's accomplishments were limited to crafty things (painting tables, covering screens and netting purses; pianoforte is also mentioned). When Darcy described his ideal woman, he implied that women could achieve so much more.
5. [Random WTF] Talk about Darcy’s disgust / attraction. Avoid using words with the letter “a”.
I was
Some notes:
* "Keep your breath to cool your porridge." - I wasn't familiar with this saying even if everybody in the novel was. :P I Googled, it means "save your breath to do something useful (instead of talking)".
* Ragout - main-dish stew that is slowly cooked over a low heat. Looks yummy.
* "...she found the whole party at loo and was immediately invited to join them; but suspecting them to be playing high..."
>>> I read this in a modern light and did a double-take: She found the whole party at the toilet (loo) and suspected them of pretending to be on drugs (playing high). Upon reading the next sentences, I learned that the loo indicated is a card game, not the toilet. ^^
* I love how dialogue-driven Pride and Prejudice is and how it clearly illuminate the characters' personalities. This is the first work I've read where there is not much narration but with Jane Austen's masterful use of dialogue, there is no need for it.
Segue: Okay. So here I was, happily typing out (and nearly done with) my responses to your answers (great job, everybody!), when suddenly I lose power and my PC shuts down. Hurrah for me typing down my replies in a *.txt file, and hence allowing it to be unretrievable u.u That being said: Always remember to save your work. (And yes, I'm still typing away on an unsaved *.txt file. Hahaha!)PS: I also realized that my trivia regarding lottery was meant for Day 4. Hah!
I la-la-loved reading over everybody's answers for Day 3! Thank you everybody for your answers, especially those who left one for Q5 Day 2 and Q2 Day 3 :D [I also like how most of you noted Collins' foreboding and seeming importance in the lives of the Bennett family.]Regarding Meryton: Yes, Meryton is a fictional town, although it has been said that Austen was quite particular about places and details, that it may have been patterned based on a town in an existing English county. Indeed, it is quite correct to say that it was due to England's then involvement with a French revolution - the Napoleonic Wars, in fact. There's a possibility that officers were stationed there either for rest or for preparation. As a matter of fact, back then, soldiers were particularly billeted in Southern England. (I'd hazard a guess and say that it may have been to fortify the southern borders...)
Trivia for that matter: A number of critics say that Austen seemed to have purposely avoided talking about war in her works. This may be, however, to the prevailing notion of the time to keep mum about the subject (if you are a woman), and possibly due to personal incidences that have occurred to her relating to the war.
Aldrin: I suppose you think that the line between pride and douchebaggery is thin? Then again, we are probably to read more of this sort further on, so perhaps more may be said in the matter at a future date :)
Aldrin wrote: "I think it's imperative that the pursued make their sentiments known even to the most steadfast of pursuers, lest the latter ultimately pursue others. "
>>> In that case, do you mean to think that Jane's reserve is moot in this matter? [Regarding the Perks reference - haha.]
Aldrin wrote: "If Darcy conceals his affection with the same skill from the object of it, he may lose the opportunity of fixing her.”
>>> DC the non-moderator says: I'm not sure, however, if he indeed conceals his affection with the same skill :D
Blue: You missed out on Day 3, hahaha :P But how definitely sweet :)
Blue wrote: " I feel quite sorry for Mary, though. It seems to me like she does not have a really close friend (like Jane and Lizzy, and Kitty and Lydia) so I think she's just trying to impress everyone with her knowledge to gain approval, because she's such a wallflower compared to her sisters.”
>>> DC the non-moderator says: I truthfully feel for Mary too :( [Also, good job in mentioning confidence level. Now we have pride, vanity and confidence to think about! Do you, however, have a different notion for the 3 concepts?]
Blue wrote: "In this era, people die younger than people today, and people are forced to live life to fullest asap, so I guess there's simply no time to lose in trivial beating-around-the-bush games”
>>> I find this interesting. Regency England was name as so due to Prince Regent, who enjoyed pleasure-seeking very much. (Scholars note that the bloom of Romanticism was due to his reign.) I therefore find your statement interesting, as people were all about the trivial beating-around-the-bush games, but are also probably attempting to "live their life to the fullest" due to the life expectancy, as you say. (Of course, living life to the fullest for a woman probably meant accomplishments, marriage and getting pregnant.)
Blue wrote: "Even if there are women like Darcy described, I would highly doubt their humanity”
>>> You mention "humanity". How is this significant? Also, do you believe Miss Bingley and Mrs Hurst (who reacted to Lizzy's statement) practice this "humanity" of which to speak? [At ikaw na. Ikaw na ang may reference. Haha!]
Angus: Haha, biased sa color lang ang peg pag dating sa damit. Tama 'yan :P
Angus wrote: "Why would a mother risk her daughter's health in order to secure her a bountiful marriage?”
>>> Considering those times, however, do you not think that Mrs Bennet was only doing her best to provide for her daughters? Note Blue's answer with regards to "living to the fullest". [Parang wealth is health lang ang peg, haha.]
Angus wrote: "Regarding Mr Darcy's idea, it is very ideal given that century where women are not empowered.”
>>> Interesting note on women empowerment. Some scholars say that, indeed, this period saw the rise of some feminists, although, like their clothes, women's actions were restricted - although slowly and surely allowing freedom of movement.
Louize: I like your answers very much :) No follow-up Qs from me for now :D
Louize wrote: "But then again, he might have mentioned it just to put off Ms Bingley.”
>>> Haha!
Phoebe: Hurrah for chocolate! Go ahead and gush, by the way! It's all right :D Now I'm curious as to whether there IS an English equivalent to "kilig". Hmmmm.
Phoebe wrote: "Clearly, she already referred a man as an object. We can see that this is a perception of a woman hunting for men who were out in the market. ”
>>> I find this answer of yours interesting, considering how modern feminists note how women are said to be objects - not the other way around, as you note :)
Kate: I, I, I, but you DID avoid using the word self! Good job :D
Kate wrote: " Their reaction has no more underlying meaning other than the notion of desiring to be in Mr. Darcy's good graces.”
>>> Haha, yes, interesting notion!
Mae: Haha on the childhood trauma!
Mae wrote: "He is very much aware of how Lizzy doesn't fit his standards and yet he is intrigued by her.”
>>> I like how simply this has been put :)
Tin: I like your answers! Like Aldrin, I had to laugh at #5! Haha!
Dante: You seem to show your regard for Lizzy as well so far :D
Dante wrote: " Maybe they simply wanted to chase after girls.”
>>> I find this rather funny, but the officers' actions speak for themselves, I suppose :D
Dante wrote: " In a way, I could empathize with her, even though see often got in the nerve of some of her daughters, because she was only worried that they might end up destitute, and in their time the danger was very real.”
>>> Finally, someone empathizes with Mrs Bennet! Haha!
Maru: I enjoyed your historically & socially conscious answer to my follow-up question :) Thank you as well for your notes! How informative :D
Maru wrote: "A single lady walking unaccompanied for a very long walk was considered unusual during her time.”
>>> I considered placing this in the trivia section, and I'm glad you mentioned it nevertheless :)
Maru wrote: "When Darcy described his ideal woman, he implied that women could achieve so much more.”
>>> What do you think, however, of the noted accomplishments? Do you think they are accessible to /all/ women then?
Thank you for everyone’s replies to Day 3. I really enjoyed reading them, and I’m sure others did too! Now, on to Day 4.Day 4: Keeping the necessary terms (Book 1, Chapters 15-17)
What happened in these chapters: (view spoiler)
1. With an appearance greatly in his favor, a happy readiness in conversation, and a readiness perfectly correct and unassuming, Mr Wickham seems to be very attractive indeed to the ladies. What are your thoughts about him, though?
2. There has been talk of “pride” again, especially in Chapter 16. Compare this notion of pride to previously discussed “pride” in Day 1.
Vocabulary check: Are there any other foreign words you’ve read about?
Trivia:
Women of marriageable age of the nobility and gentry were formally introduced into society by “presentation” to the monarch at Court (i.e. the Queen).
Etiquette for men: One should not bow to someone one has met casually at the house of a mutual friend, if one has not been introduced. Bows are for people with whom one is acquainted; you are not acquainted if you have not been introduced.
Check out Day 3's questions here: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
DC: "You seem to show your regard for Lizzy as well so far :D"I like her very much. :D
Day 4: Keeping the necessary terms (Book 1, Chapters 15-17)1. With an appearance greatly in his favor, a happy readiness in conversation, and a readiness perfectly correct and unassuming, Mr Wickham seems to be very attractive indeed to the ladies. What are your thoughts about him, though?
Sorry, this just popped out of my head:
"Hey, I just met you, and this is crazy, but you look so handsome in your regimentals. Can you call on me, maybe?"
-- Lizzy Bennet
That said, I thought Mr. Wickham was a very pleasant, good-natured kind of man. His behavior at that ball was commendable. But looks can be deceiving. You cannot judge a man's character based on his personality alone, or how he carries himself. You need time and a closer acquaintance to know who he really is.
2. There has been talk of “pride” again, especially in Chapter 16. Compare this notion of pride to previously discussed “pride” in Day 1.
I guess the "pride" referred to in Chapter 16 was Mr. Collins'? His was really just conceit. He feigned humility, but in reality he was condescending and self-righteous. In contrast, Mr. Darcy's was hauteur, and it showed in his gestures.
"Etiquette for men: One should not bow to someone one has met casually at the house of a mutual friend, if one has not been introduced. Bows are for people with whom one is acquainted; you are not acquainted if you have not been introduced."
Very interesting. (view spoiler)
DC: It is impossible to correctly spell Collins without the "i"; it would not make sense!
1. There is something more in Mr Wickham than what meets the eye. Just like Dante mentioned above, looks can be deceiving. How many times are we deceived by characters like Mr Wickham anyways? Countless. Though Elizabeth received Mr Wickham with warmth, I couldn't help but second guess his authenticity.
But that as it may, I thank him for his appearance! Now we clearly see what Lizzy haven't realized yet. You girl, why do you desire to know more about who Mr Darcy really is? XD
2. If the characters mulled over what prompts pride to be visible on a person, this chapter touched the results of pride. As Mr Wickham mentioned, it is the "family pride" and "brotherly pride" (of course, with some kind of affection) that led him to be generous and kind.
But in regard to Mr Darcy, I think Mr Wickham is just being bias.
1. There is something more in Mr Wickham than what meets the eye. Just like Dante mentioned above, looks can be deceiving. How many times are we deceived by characters like Mr Wickham anyways? Countless. Though Elizabeth received Mr Wickham with warmth, I couldn't help but second guess his authenticity.
But that as it may, I thank him for his appearance! Now we clearly see what Lizzy haven't realized yet. You girl, why do you desire to know more about who Mr Darcy really is? XD
2. If the characters mulled over what prompts pride to be visible on a person, this chapter touched the results of pride. As Mr Wickham mentioned, it is the "family pride" and "brotherly pride" (of course, with some kind of affection) that led him to be generous and kind.
But in regard to Mr Darcy, I think Mr Wickham is just being bias.
Waaaah ang dami kong ibackread! I just started on the novel and I finished the graphic novel (which was beautifully meh because naguluhan ako hahaha). Hay, I wish I can motivate myself to read this than falling asleep D:
Day 3: The pleasure of a tolerable answer (Book 1, Chapters 9-14)1. As much as she was peeved at getting judged and criticized, I am sure she made it all better by judging and criticizing them back, albeit only in her head.
2. The road just happened to fit only 3 persons or the ladies wore extra fluffy skirts to hog the space and to annoy Lizzie. :)
3. He seems like the sort who says he doesn't like to toot his own horn but in saying so actually toots his own horn.
Quick question: When Darcy said that "Nothing is more deceitful than the appearance of humility. It is often only carelessness of opinion, and sometimes an indirect boast." Does this mean the same thing as what I said about Mr. Collins?
>> Judging from the movie adaptation, the fashion then seems to be of the practical and conservative sort. Long sleeves, long skirts. The cut of the dresses also seem to mostly be empire waist. The only thing that differentiates the everyday dresses and those of a party dress would be the material used, e.g. lacey stuff for parties. Definitely less complicated than our fashion today. I can't say the same for the people.
Gee, group discussions are fun. :)
To DC and ALDRIN, I'm glad you found the Katy Perry reference funny! :D
Assignment
In this era, it seems like their clothes are in the side of romantic and elegant looking.
The girls wear corset, bustiers and usually high-waisted décolleté dresses. The skirt is long which is usually at the bottom of the feet or perhaps a little past. And it looks quite unconvenient to walk because of its length and the petticoat underneath (evinced by Lizzy after she walked over the mud to reach Netherfield).
It's lovely.
*I'm using spoiler html for images so my post won't stretch the page (view spoiler)
As for guys, they wear cravat, tailcoat, tight fitting trousers and boots. Wear this with handsome countenance, one word: hot.
(view spoiler)
I do not know if it's for all people of social standing or if it's only for Darcy & Bingley.
~~~~***~~~~
Day 4: Keeping the necessary terms (Book 1, Chapters 15-17)
1) I might be cheating for this answer because I already read the book before so I will restrain myself and not spoil. All I can say is that Wickham is engaging, lively and persuasive smooth talker.
2) The pride previously discussed was explained by Mary as a self-regard but in Chapter 16, Wickham and Elizabeth discussed Darcy’s pride as what they only think of it.
Hi everyone! Thank you for your answers. I'll go over them later, but here are the questions for Day 5 :)EDIT: When I initially posted this, I included a question I should have not yet included. I apologize for this.
Day 5: Preparation in the highest spirits (Book 1, Chapters 18-19)
What happened in these chapters: (view spoiler)
1. Describe the dance between Lizzy and Darcy. If you could read their minds while they were thus engaged, what do you think the two would have been thinking?
2. Lizzy received a number of opinions from different people regarding Mr. Wickham in Chapter 18 (at least three). Note each one, and her reception of them. Do you think that her conclusion regarding Mr. Darcy is fair?
3. What are your thoughts on the proposal to Lizzy? Did it come as a surprise to you?
Vocabulary check: Are there any other foreign words you’ve read about?
Trivia:
Rather than everyone starting at once, dances would have called and led off by a single couple at the top; as that couple progressed down the set other couples would begin to dance, then lead off in turn as they reached the top, until all the dancers were moving.
This could lead to very long dances indeed (half an hour to an hour) if there were many couples in a set, and to plenty of time to chat quietly with one’s partner at the top or bottom of the set.
Check out Day 4's questions here: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...
Day 4: Keeping the necessary terms (Book 1, Chapters 15-17)1. Just basing on chapters 15-17, Mr Wickham seems to be every girl's dream. Handsome and charming, almost perfect really. But we all know that if something (or someone) is too good to be true, it probably is.
2. In my opinion, in Day 1, they were discussing whether a person (specifically Mr. Darcy) has the right to be proud, to show it outwardly. In Chapter 16, they seem to have accepted that Darcy and Pride are practically twins and merely goes on to explore the topic extensively by talking about the different kinds of pride (filial, brotherly etc.) and how it makes Darcy both loathsome and amiable.
Na-pressure ako sa reading progress! :)) Kaya I'll just answer the questions na mabilis kong masasagot. :DDay 3 (Habol!)
1. Using as polite and genteel language as possible, describe the evenings Elizabeth had at Netherfield. Go ahead and use sarcasm, if you wish to do so.
As I imagined it, each night could have been cold - cold as the treatment of the hosts to her.
2. [Random WTF] “No, no, stay where you are. You are charmingly grouped, and appear to uncommon advantage. The picturesque would be spoiled by admitting a fourth.” (Chap. 10) Why do you think the road was wide enough for only 3 people?
Because it is meant for two people only, and the additional space for a 3rd person is meant for overtaking.
The Assignment:
Not passing this one. I am not in the mood for creative imagination. :))
Day 4.
1. Answer: He's too good to be true. I don't know why I find him that way. Maybe because he's too likeable.
2. Answer: I am not sure what exactly on the "pride" factor of the chapter. But as I try to go through it again, I see that Wickham is trying to latch on his pride of being a "misfortuned" man, yet who was able to prosper amidst the ill-treatment he received from Darcy. On the other hand, Darcy is too proud of his wealth.
Day 5
Will start reading it, just now. :D
Overdue FU Q:
DC wrote:If that's the case, then do you think that Jane should not take any more steps in attempting to "secure" Bingley? When you agree with Lizzy in her statement, do you mean it for both sexes, or for women in particular?
Not that she should not take any more steps to "secure" BIngley, it's just that she should not feel obliged to do more than what she could. As per Lizzy's statement, "But she does help him on, as much as her nature will allow. " it supports my thought that a woman can only do so much. Jane could go on sending hints or reciprocating whatever Bingley is showing her, but only to the extent of her nature.
Is it for both sexes? No. Only for women. I always believe that it's men's main responsibility to "secure" the woman he loves / likes. Also it's them who are tasked to decipher woman's actions on whether she is interested on him or not. Again: "...he must be a simpleton indeed not to discover it ..."
Tricia and Bennard, ok lang 'yan! You could catch up :) There's a "rest day" noted in the reading plan; you can use that day to catch up on your reading! We'll look forward to having you :DAlso: You guys already catch a vibe regarding Wickham. Interesting! Haha, well, let's see what happens :)
Dante: If I'm not mistaken, there have been people who consider Elizabeth Bennet as "one of the most attractive females in literature" :D
Dante wrote: ""Hey, I just met you, and this is crazy, but you look so handsome in your regimentals. Can you call on me, maybe?"-- Lizzy Bennet"
>>> Haha! I like how you said "call on me", haha!
Dante wrote: "But looks can be deceiving. You cannot judge a man's character based on his personality alone, or how he carries himself. You need time and a closer acquaintance to know who he really is."
>>> That being said, what do you think of Lizzy's apparent regard for him?
Dante wrote: "His was really just conceit. He feigned humility, but in reality he was condescending and self-righteous. In contrast, Mr. Darcy's was hauteur, and it showed in his gestures."
>>> Considering that we've gotten to know more about Mr Collins in the previous chapters, do you think his conceit is justified? [And yes, that's why Lizzy noted that introducing himself to Darcy would be considered an impertinence, as opposed to a compliment.]
Kate: LOL on not being able to spell Collins without "i" :P
Kate wrote: "You girl, why do you desire to know more about who Mr Darcy really is?"
>>> Oooh, legit question, hahaha! (Then again, why does Wickham always want to talk about Darcy? Hmm!)
Kate wrote: "But in regard to Mr Darcy, I think Mr Wickham is just being bias. "
>>> Biased, you say? What made you say this? Also, isn't the pride noted here very positive? Why does disdain rule the two conversationalists for this matter?
Tin: I'm honestly very glad you're enjoying yourself! :)
Tin wrote: "The road just happened to fit only 3 persons or the ladies wore extra fluffy skirts to hog the space and to annoy Lizzie. :)"
>>> Gasp! They did it on purpose! I wouldn't be surprised if Darcy wore something of the sort as well!
Tin wrote: "Quick question: When Darcy said that "Nothing is more deceitful than the appearance of humility. It is often only carelessness of opinion, and sometimes an indirect boast." Does this mean the same thing as what I said about Mr. Collins?"
>>> DC the non-moderator says: In Mr Bennet's observations of Mr Collins, he noted that Mr Collins is indeed a mix of humility and self-conceit. The quote you placed also shows this: appearing to be humble, but not actually being humble. My personal opinion in here -> (view spoiler) In effect, I suppose you could say that what you said about horn-tooting is roughly the same :D
Tin wrote: "Definitely less complicated than our fashion today. I can't say the same for the people. "
>>> Thank you for your observations on the
Tin wrote: "In Chapter 16, they seem to have accepted that Darcy and Pride are practically twins and merely goes on to explore the topic extensively by talking about the different kinds of pride (filial, brotherly etc.) and how it makes Darcy both loathsome and amiable. "
>>> You mention Darcy being both loathsome and amiable. It seems as if he's quite a dichotomy within himself. Can you explain your point further?
Phoebe: Glad you took the assignment to heart! With handsome countenance, I agree - totally hot.
Phoebe wrote: "Wickham and Elizabeth discussed Darcy’s pride as what they only think of it. "
>>> Wickham's discussion of pride seemed more positive (brotherly, etc), whereas Mary's seemed more condescending. Do you think, then, that the two instances show similarities?
AennA: Go Aenna! Kaya mo 'yan! There will be a "day of rest" in the reading plan, so you may opt to use that day to catch up :) [BTW - I also like how you noted that a woman isn't obliged to do more. Nice thought!]
AennA wrote: "Because it is meant for two people only, and the additional space for a 3rd person is meant for overtaking."
>>> OMG PANALO! Hahaha!
AennA wrote: "But as I try to go through it again, I see that Wickham is trying to latch on his pride of being a "misfortuned" man, yet who was able to prosper amidst the ill-treatment he received from Darcy. On the other hand, Darcy is too proud of his wealth."
>>> Seeing as the pride of each seems to differ, which do you think is more important or of note?
[Last note: Guys, I'm glad you're still onboard, because it's really lovely reading of your opinions! Again, thank you for joining the discussion! (I hope you stay until the very end :D)]
Day 2 1. What does the following quote mean for that period? What does it mean for you? “If a woman conceals her affection with the same skill from the object of it, she may lose the opportunity of fixing him.” (Chap. 6)
Haha, in short, woman shouldn’t be “pakipot” or else she’ll be an old maid forever.
2. [History] Why did a bunch of redcoats (“officers”) come to Meryton?
I really have no idea. Was this mentioned in the book?
3. What are your thoughts about the maneuver of Mrs. Bennett making Jane go on horseback, as opposed to Lizzy going on foot? Would you have done the same in either’s steed stead?
I find Mrs. Bennet impossible, as a mother. I also have a feeling that jane is the favorite daughter
DC: "If I'm not mistaken, there have been people who consider Elizabeth Bennet as "one of the most attractive females in literature" :DI'll have to agree! :D
I've been browsing through this book, "Jane Austen: The World of Her Novels" by Deirdre Le Faye, an Austen scholar, and saw this painting:
Le Faye writes that this portrait agrees perfectly with Jane Austen's image of Elizabeth Bennet. It's attributed to Sir Henry Raeburn (1756-1823), and the name of the lady is Mrs. Walter Learmouth (1772-1832). She's handsome, but I imagined Lizzy to look more like Jennifer Ehle. :D
Such fine eyes! :D
"That being said, what do you think of Lizzy's apparent regard for him?"
She was a bit hasty, I think, to conclude that he's a good kind of man. Maybe she was easily attracted to him because of the contrast between him and Darcy. She was a bit naive to think that a man's countenance and bearing necessarily reflects his character.
"Considering that we've gotten to know more about Mr Collins in the previous chapters, do you think his conceit is justified? [And yes, that's why Lizzy noted that introducing himself to Darcy would be considered an impertinence, as opposed to a compliment.]"
I don't think conceit is ever justified. But what I admire about Lizzy is that she was still composed and civil towards him even if she didn't like him. She is very well-bred. :D
Re Day 4Wickham's discussion of pride seemed more positive (brotherly, etc), whereas Mary's seemed more condescending. Do you think, then, that the two instances show similarities?
I think the two instances showed similarities because Wickham also used pride as condescending. He mentioned that Darcy was only liberal and generous so he would not appear to disgrace his family, to degenerate from the popular qualities, or lose the influence of the Pemberley House. He only said that Darcy pretends because he has a powerful motive.
~~~***~~~
Day 5: Preparation in the highest spirits (Book 1, Chapters 18-20)
1) They were dancing in silence as Darcy was now fully enchanted by Lizzy while she has prejudiced his character completely. So Darcy might be thinking how wonderful to dance with Lizzy and how she is lovely. He brought up Wickham in their conversation, he was curious how Wickham is connected with Lizzy and I think he was already jealous. Lizzy’s lively character was shown when she was teasing Darcy. However, she was thinking of how bad Darcy is and thinking that he was the reason why Wickham was not around.
2) A very rare incident happened when Caroline approached Elizabeth just to tell her something about Wickham. She said Wickham was terrible and now Darcy has nothing to do with him. Elizabeth did not believe her because Caroline belittle people like she was saying that Wickham was a steward’s son. Jane was also not believable to her because Jane was too kind to be swayed by Bingley. Moreover, Elizabeth refuses to believe Bingley only saw Wickham that morning at Meryton.
It was not fair. She listened to all Wickham would have to say but did not even bother to get Darcy’s side. If she’s the Lady Justice, the scale is heavier in the other side.
3) Mr. Collins is an awful man. He was proposing to build his own reputation and to increase his status and become respectable. Lizzy was admirable to decline such proposal in that time because most of the women in that era will gladly or forced their selves to say yes, thinking that their property was at risk, maturing age, and receiving the promise of a good life. Charlotte was the opposite. She preferred to choose empty marriage over love. She excused herself with ‘no choice’ because she was afraid to become an old maid and believing that it was the best choice.
It was little surprising actually. I did not see that coming or maybe I'm just a little dense haha
~~**~~
By the way, can I say eww to this? http://omg.yahoo.com/news/publisher-r...
They can't just alter the classics, it won't be classics anymore.
Have you no compassion for my poor nerves?
Day 3: (Book 1, Chapters 9-14)1. Using as polite and genteel language as possible, describe the evenings Elizabeth had at Netherfield. Go ahead and use sarcasm, if you wish to do so.
Hmmm, genteel… far from me, but will try.
The evenings passed with civility, more than tranquil at times; but the hidden hostility of the Bingley sisters could not be missed, except by
Meanwhile, the evidence of Mr. Darcy’s growing affection for Lizzy made him more guarded and indifferent.
2. [Random WTF] “No, no, stay where you are. You are charmingly grouped, and appear to uncommon advantage. The picturesque would be spoiled by admitting a fourth.” (Chap. 10) Why do you think the road was wide enough for only 3 people?
It’s a general rule of thumb to make walkways wide enough that two people can comfortably walk side-by-side. Four feet is the minimum width, but five feet is preferred for takeovers. I take a morning walk everyday at the park near our place, and that’s what the gardener said.
It was very wise of Lizzy to exclude herself immediately. And I’m sure the snotty Caroline rejoiced privately with her triumph.
3. Describe Mr. Collins without using the word “self”. If possible, describe him in his own manner of speaking.
Mr. Collins was an over-assuming, pompous snob. He bragged his borrowed status, on the account of his high-esteemed patroness, Lady Catherine de Bourgh.
Day 4: (Book 1, Chapters 15-17)1. With an appearance greatly in his favor, a happy readiness in conversation, and a readiness perfectly correct and unassuming, Mr Wickham seems to be very attractive indeed to the ladies. What are your thoughts about him, though?
I cannot assume much since we've only read his side of the affair with Mr. Darcy. Let us hope he is no deceiver, because it was curious on why a man would tell a new acquaintance his pitying story without much hesitation; and a soldier to boot.
2. There has been talk of “pride” again, especially in Chapter 16. Compare this notion of pride to previously discussed “pride” in Day 1.
On day 1, Pride was examined in conjunction to personal preferences. Meanwhile, in Chapter 16 Family pride or filial pride pertains more into keeping the family honor in reverence to one’s parentage or heritage. And brotherly pride spoke of how one dotted on a sibling. So, we saw that sometimes pride can make a person cling to honorable virtues.
Assignment:
Mr. Charles Bingley Graced Hertfordshire with a Ball
The new resident of Netherfield Park, Mr. Charles Bingley honored Hertfordshire with a ball last night. The good host, and his sisters, Mrs. Louisa Hurst and Ms. Caroline Bingley, welcomed the neighbors with their warmest smiles.
It was obvious that Mr. Bingley was regarded closely, especially his proximity with Ms. Jane Bennet. A handsome couple to take note of. Mr. Bingley was finely suited in black dress-coat paired with well fitting pants of the same hue. His waistcoat of white was not embroidered, but delicately plaited, accentuated by small gold studs. Equally, Ms. Jane was divine in her muslin gown of mauve (the latest rave of London), finely trimmed with lace of a lighter shade. Her hair was beautifully coiled up with side ringlets framing her blushing cheeks. It was a wonder watching them on the dance floor together.
From the other side of the ball, the formerly mentioned couple found a match from the exquisite allure of Ms. Elizabeth Bennet; dressed in moss green muslin, a perfect match for her arresting eyes, cut temptingly to credit her athletic figure. Her hair was dressed with delicate studs of emerald crowning her angelic face …
Day 5: (Book 1, Chapters 18-20)1. Describe the dance between Lizzy and Darcy. If you could read their minds while they were thus engaged, what do you think the two would have been thinking?
Guarded… very! Ever heard the term “no talk, no mistake...”?
2. Lizzy received a number of opinions from different people regarding Mr. Wickham in Chapter 18 (at least three). Note each one, and her reception of them. Do you think that her conclusion regarding Mr. Darcy is fair?
The first encounter was from Mr Denny, “I do not imagine his business would have called him away just now, if he had not wished to avoid a certain gentleman here."
-It would seem that Mr. Wickham purposely avoided going to the ball to avoid any confrontation with Mr Darcy. That made Lizzy angry with Mr Darcy evenmore.
The 2nd encounter was from Mr. Darcy himself, “Mr. Wickham is blessed with such happy manners as may ensure his making friends -- whether he may be equally capable of retaining them, is less certain."
-From pure conjecture, I think Mr Darcy implied that it was Mr Wickham who broke friendship with the former all on his own terms. This remark puzzled Lizzy in gauging Mr. Darcy’s true character, but it was obvious that prejudice had taken root in her.
The 3rd was from the spiteful Caroline Bingley, “…for as to Mr. Darcy's using him ill, it is perfectly false..."
-There! The animosity was out and spoken. It can be concluded that Lizzy’s feelings of indifference with Ms Bingley had escalated to hate.
3. What are your thoughts on the proposals to Lizzy and to Charlotte? Did either come as a surprise to you?
No surprise at all. There were foreshadowing before the proposals. Mr Collins was so eager to be married, and Ms Lucas was equally tired of waiting for a proposal to come her way.
Cary: Hi Cary! Welcome back? :DCary wrote: "Haha, in short, woman shouldn’t be “pakipot” or else she’ll be an old maid forever. "
>>> Do you agree with this statement?
Dante: If I'm not mistaken, that book also notes the real towns that the fictional ones in the book have been based on :)
Dante wrote: "But what I admire about Lizzy is that she was still composed and civil towards him even if she didn't like him. She is very well-bred. :D "
>>> *smiles*
Phoebe:
Phoebe wrote: "He only said that Darcy pretends because he has a powerful motive. "
>>> Good answer :)
Phoebe wrote: "He brought up Wickham in their conversation, he was curious how Wickham is connected with Lizzy and I think he was already jealous. "
>>> DC the non-moderator says: Inner kilig for this answer =">
---
Louize: Wow, I like how you worded your assignment! Lovely! [Also: "... a perfect match for her arresting eyes... " (Aha!)] And, as usual, your answers are great :)
Louize wrote: "It’s a general rule of thumb to make walkways wide enough that two people can comfortably walk side-by-side. Four feet is the minimum width, but five feet is preferred for takeovers. I take a morning walk everyday at the park near our place, and that’s what the gardener said."
>>> Nice! :)
Louize wrote: "Meanwhile, in Chapter 16 Family pride or filial pride pertains more into keeping the family honor in reverence to one’s parentage or heritage. And brotherly pride spoke of how one dotted on a sibling. So, we saw that sometimes pride can make a person cling to honorable virtues."
>>> In the portion that Mr Wickham notes this sentiment, he seems to be saying it ironically. Do you think that this kind of pride is moot? What can it say about Mr Darcy (the object) as opposed to Mr Wickham (the judge of Darcy's character)?
Phoebe wrote: "By the way, can I say eww to this? http://omg.yahoo.com/news/publisher-r... They can't just alter the classics, it won't be classics anymore.
Have you no compassion for my poor nerves? "
>>> First, I see what you did there :D Secondly, ugggggggh. I guess that's commercialization for you. Lastly, someone already made it! OMG! --> (view spoiler)
Last day of Week 1! Tomorrow is a day of rest / catching up, so there are no noted chapters for discussion by then. Good job on staying on so far!Day 6: Feelings chiefly expressed (Book 1, Chapters 20-23)
What happened in these chapters: (view spoiler)
1. A number of things seem to be unfolding for these chapters. Note which ones struck you the most, and give your expectations & surmises about the characters.
2. "Elizabeth felt persuaded that no real confidence could ever subsist between them again." (Chap. 23) What do you think of this statement? Do you think you would have felt the same in Lizzy's shoes?
3. Considering that these are the last chapters for Book 1, breathe freely and have a chocolate. You're 1/3rd done!
Trivia: The Bennet girls had no brother. If they had had a brother, he would have inherited the family property. However, he would also have been obligated to keep under his roof his mother and all the unmarried sisters, and provide them with an allowance (as well as bed and board).
Note: We will be having a different discussion format come Week 2 (or Thursday this week). More details to follow tomorrow.
regarding the "pakipot" issue: It's not bad kasi girls should know that they are meant to be pursued but not to the extreme naman (you tipong who the heck does she think she is? ang iisipin ng guy or the guy will take it as a no to enter her life). Also, it's not also advise na hindi din magpakipot ni kutiting. (may mashare lang haha)
DC: I also see things like that in tumblr hahaBut well, I read Pride & Prejudice & Zombies haha it's just that they should make new characters and stories of their own.
Biased, you say? What made you say this? Also, isn't the pride noted here very positive? Why does disdain rule the two conversationalists for this matter?
Wickham did present "pride" to Lizzy positively, but did he actually? He knows Lizzy doesn't appreciate Darcy and his pride. She even "loath" him because of it. Now, here goes a seemingly amiable man who tells a tale to a woman, with the same mindset as Lizzy, about a man's generosity [only] caused by a kind of pride to maintain a family's reputation. Does that sound positive at all? There's something fishy down Wickham's sweet words. cliché, cliché.
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something was hungry it ate my whole Day 5 answer. (Are you satisfied, are you?) It's always annoying when that happens!
Wickham did present "pride" to Lizzy positively, but did he actually? He knows Lizzy doesn't appreciate Darcy and his pride. She even "loath" him because of it. Now, here goes a seemingly amiable man who tells a tale to a woman, with the same mindset as Lizzy, about a man's generosity [only] caused by a kind of pride to maintain a family's reputation. Does that sound positive at all? There's something fishy down Wickham's sweet words. cliché, cliché.
---
something was hungry it ate my whole Day 5 answer. (Are you satisfied, are you?) It's always annoying when that happens!
You humble me DC. “…for what is language but a string of adjectives.” hehehehe>>> In the portion that Mr Wickham notes this sentiment, he seems to be saying it ironically.
Ironically, no, he said it as a matter-of-fact; but as to how and why he said it was a different matter altogether. His motives are questionable as I have mentioned before. It’s like Wickham was kindling Ms Lizzy’s indifference to Mr Darcy all the more by ever so humbly acknowledging the good virtues of the person in question.
Do you think that this kind of pride is moot?
Any kind of character is debatable, pride being no exception, whether it was applied fruitfully or falsely.
What can it say about Mr Darcy (the object) as opposed to Mr Wickham (the judge of Darcy's character)?
Well, it entails that Mr Darcy is a man of conviction. He rules and lives his life with a certain honor that cannot be easily bent. By far, that is commendable. But let us not assume that when a man lives in a straight line, this straight line cannot be leveled down or up. As to Mr Wickham, I cannot say yet if he’s qualified as a good judge of character despite their previous association.
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The Historian (other topics)The Beautiful and Damned (other topics)
The Historian (other topics)
Pride and Prejudice (other topics)
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1. Witty, but how presumptuous. Of course, in the novel's setting, I think everyone wants women to settle down. I think the elder Bennett sisters were already in the "warning" zone, that Mrs. Bennett is starting to worry.
Of course, nowadays, that's entirely different.
2. I'm cheating because this is my second reading of the book, so my favorite is Mr. Bennett. I've always liked his character, especially with how he (lovingly) mocks Mrs. Bennett. :)
3. There were too many ladies in the party? I don't think Lizzy is a wallflower, exactly. I think it implies that Lizzy can be an odd girl out, that she's not in search of a husband, and she's perfectly okay with that.
[skipping question # 4 -- I shall answer later. I need to go back to the text again :D]
5. *pats* Rereading this is actually quite fun. :)