Mockingjay
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who do u think killed prim
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Michael
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Sep 15, 2012 06:18PM
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Coin did.She was the one who sent Prim out with the medical team KNOWING what she intended to do!
(ordered the bombs to go off)
It was either Snow or a renegade Capitol aircraft crew. If Coin wanted Prim and Katniss killed, she could have done it much easier -- hiring a hit man, poisoning their food, or in Katniss' case just putting her in the midst of the fighting (like King David with Uriah the Hittite) until a bullet found her.That double-bomb explosion thing isn't something Gale invented, despite what he claimed. It's already been used in Iraq numerous times, and by the American terrorist Eric Rudolph. There's no reason why the Capitol forces wouldn't know about it from the history of our time.
As for why the first aide unit including Prim was so close to the palace, there are any number of ways that could have happened -- some incompetent junior officer for instance.
Katniss believes Coin did it because Snow put the idea into her head. As for trusting Snow, don't get me started... He firebombed District 12, Katniss' home town. It would be crazy for Katniss to trust him. Come to think it, Katniss was acting quite crazy toward the end of the book. The jury that acquitted her for murdering Coin certainly thought so. They acquitted her on grounds of insanity.
Betty wrote: "It was either Snow or a renegade Capitol aircraft crew. If Coin wanted Prim and Katniss killed, she could have done it much easier -- hiring a hit man, poisoning their food, or in Katniss' case jus..."Coin did it to break Katniss. It's all in the wording of the book. Katniss was the face of the rebellion, Coin couldn't just kill her without repercussions, so she had to break her.
directly the person who threw the bomb. Indirectly lots of people. Including Katniss. Believe it or not if she hadn't gotten on coins bad side. She would of never been in that position.
Daniel wrote: "Coin did it to break Katniss. It's all in the wording of the book. Katniss was the face of the rebellion, Coin couldn't just kill her without repercussions, so she had to break her. If Coin wanted to kill Prim to break Katniss, there were plenty of easier and more direct ways to do it, as I've already said.
Besides, the only thing that directly ties D13 (and by impication Coin) to the bombing attack is the 2-stage detonation of the bombs. Gale told Katniss he invented this, and that's enough to convince Katniss D13 is involved.
However, since we know this kind of bombing attack is already in use, Gale didn't really invent it. (Often people "invent" things that have already been invented, without their knowledge, by someone else.) As I've said before, the Capitol forces could have picked it up independently by studying the history of our time, which is more than 100 years in the past for them.
At this point, I must recognize the book is told entirely from Katniss' point of view, and therefore the book can't tell us anything Katniss doesn't know. Coin doesn't appear very often because Katniss avoids her as much as possible. If the book were rewritten to include more points of view (including scenes of Coin where Katniss is not present) then we could see Coin doing things to prepare for the child-bombing attack, and it would be easier to believe Coin was behind it. On the evidence presented by "Mockingjay," I'm inclined to doubt it.
OTOH, we don't see the Capitol forces using the same tactic earlier either. I have to admit that. Given what the book tells us, there's no direct evidence Coin ordered the attack. Only hints.
One thing we do know is, Snow wants Katniss to believe Coin did it. Excuse me, but I refuse to trust Snow's word on anything.
Betty wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Coin did it to break Katniss. It's all in the wording of the book. Katniss was the face of the rebellion, Coin couldn't just kill her without repercussions, so she had to break her. ..."It was Coin, but you can believe whatever you want.
Since the evidence is not enough for you, would you like to explain how you came to the conclusion that the book is based 100 years in the future of our world. I thought it was a fictional world. With fictional characters.
Anyway's, thanks for the laugh, i love reading such ridiculous comment's.
Daniel, of course it's a fictional world with fictional characters, but it is set in the future of our world, "on the ruins of North America." It's science-ficton. There were 75 Hunger Games, up through Catching Fire. Panem obviously had to exist for some time before the first rebellion (the Dark Days), so the Districts would have a record of oppression to rebel against. Suzanne Collins herself has said Panem existed for "three digits." This dosn't count the time between the present and the founding of Panem.
Betty wrote: "Daniel, of course it's a fictional world with fictional characters, but it is set in the future of our world, "on the ruins of North America." It's science-ficton. There were 75 Hunger Games, up ..."
I already knew that, what's your point?
it was definitely coin. :)
It was Coin. No doubt :)
Daniel wrote: "I already knew that, what's your point?"Well, you asked me how I knew Panem was more than 100 years in the future. I answered that.
Betty wrote: "Daniel wrote: "I already knew that, what's your point?"Well, you asked me how I knew Panem was more than 100 years in the future. I answered that."
Actually i didn't, i asked how you know Panem is 100 years in our future. You said Gale didn't invent the bomb because It's already been used in Iraq numerous times, and by the American terrorist Eric Rudolph.
How do you know if that is in the books past? Did you just put it in there yourself to try to legitimize your theory?
Daniel, you are the first HG fan I've met who didn't understand the world of Panem was a hypothetical future of our world.
Betty wrote: "Daniel, you are the first HG fan I've met who didn't understand the world of Panem was a hypothetical future of our world."No, you don't seem to understand that it's a fictional world. Can you please show me where it say's it's a hypothetical future of our world.
Daniel wrote: "Betty wrote: "Daniel, you are the first HG fan I've met who didn't understand the world of Panem was a hypothetical future of our world."No, you don't seem to understand that it's a fictional wor..."
Isn`t it obvious that the author is trying to reflect the future America, which he explains in the beginning?
Yah it is pure fantasy, but It`s more of a future than a fantasy world according to the author!!
Chanaka wrote: "Daniel wrote: "Betty wrote: "Daniel, you are the first HG fan I've met who didn't understand the world of Panem was a hypothetical future of our world."No, you don't seem to understand that it's ..."
"A future America" not this America's future. It's a fictional book so it's a fictional America's future.
I think what Daniel's trying to say is that you can't say that the bombs hadn't been invented by Gale because you knew they'd been used before. As it is a fictional world, we can't say what's already been done and all. Yes, loosely based it may be the future of America, but since it's fiction, the past can be distorted as well.
You could have a future post apocalypse dystopia where much knowledge of the past has been forgotten, but Panem does not appear to be that kind of a place. The biotech stuff, with cloned animals and the ability to regenerate Katniss' skin, plus those meglev high speed trains, are clearly offshoots of our existing technology. My assumption is they have the military history of our age as well, including bobming techniques. But that IS my assumption, I freely admit.
It was definitely Coin. It's pretty much written in the book. Think about when Katniss kills Coin, how she looks at Snow and acknowledges that he did not lie to her, that is was Coin. She says "Yes. For Prim." Before going out and shooting Coin in the head. Also, it's the only answer that makes sense. Coin wanted to take out Katniss, and she knew killing her sister would stop her caring about politics and about speaking out against her. We're told these things about Coin frequently throughout the book, so when it happens it's no surprise that she'd do this.
I mean, she sent Peeta to kill Katniss. She wanted to snuff out Katniss any way she could because Katniss was a threat to her leadership. Prim would have never been there unless someone high up had put her there, and who would have the motive other than Coin?
How could it possibly be Snow or the Capitol? If they had the aircraft Snow would have been on it running away.
It was Coin, the BITCH!!!!Just to get back at Katniss for not being killed or dying she let Prim die!!!! Thank god Katniss killed her! She shouldn't blame Gale but I can understand why she did. :(
By the way Betty and Daniel, your argument is hilarious...but back to the discussion-Technically, it was a goddamn bomb who killed Prim, okay. With the evidence Katniss gives me, I'd have to say it was most likely Coin behind that bomb. Saying that though you have to take into consideration the Katniss is going insane and I wouldn't trust any conclusion her mind is coming to. Then remember that if it was Coin, she killed not only her own medics, and Prim, but countless other children!!
You would have to be one hell of a icy-black-hearted-witch to send out the order to do that.
What I hate is the fact that Katniss blames Gale. Really?
I mean, yes she may be losing it and going completely insane with grief but come on!
To justify blaming Gale, she would have to blame every other military worker in District 13 who had a connection to the weapon designing, AND countless others in history who used the exact same double bombing tactic!! Really it feels like that was just just Suzanne's solution to the stupid Gale/Peeta problem. If it was intended to be an import rift in their friendship, she should really have come up with some more convincing reasoning!
Even though I would love to say snow, it was so coin!
Coin
Coin. Gale didn't know that Prim would be there, and eventhough he helped, he is not guilty of her death.
it was gales bomb but it was either snow or coins fault.
Sara wrote: "Then remember that if it was Coin, she killed not only her own medics, and Prim, but countless other children!! You would have to be one hell of a icy-black-hearted-witch to send out the order to do that."
I also believe it was Coin because why would Snow bomb the kids he purposely put there to slow the rebels down. he wanted them as a line of defense the coward not so he can kill them and lose the support of the Capitol residents.
As for Coin not wanting to kill children don't belive it. Reason being that even though she tried to put the responsability on the victors she had no problem in justifing the 76th Hunger Games just to punish the Capitol residents. I wouldn't put it past her to have become the next Snow. She not only wanted the people to see Snow for who he was by making them belive he sacrifised their kids. She also wanted Katniss out of her way so that she would have no real competition for becoming the new president. Like many said she wanted Katniss dead but since that wasn't an option she drove her mad by putting Prim indirect danger.
**Sorry feels a bit long winded to me but hope you get what I'm trying to say.**
Like many said she wanted Katniss dead but since that wasn't an option she drove her mad by putting Prim indirect danger.This is something I don't get. Whether Coin was responsible for bombing the kids is one thing. Whether she planned for Prim to be killed is something else. On the day the Capitol fell, did Coin know who Prim was? There's nothing in the book to show she did. Much later, when the victors get together to vote on another Hunger Games, Katniss says, "Yes, for Prim." This is the first time in the book Coin hears Prim's name mentioned. I'm not convinced Coin knew who Prim was.
It's possible the bombing was carried out by a rogue crew of fanatical Snow supporters, without his knowledge or support. They were planning to kill some rebels with the second wave of bombs.And yes, I know Gale "invented" the technique of timing two bomb explosions to go off separately, according to the book. But this tactic is already used in our time. The Peacemakers could have gotten the idea from the history of our period, as I said in another thread.
There's never any conclusive evidence Coin ordered the attack. That's merely Katniss' conclusion, although I'm willing to admit the author probably intended this to be the correct assumption.
Betty wrote: "Like many said she wanted Katniss dead but since that wasn't an option she drove her mad by putting Prim indirect danger.This is something I don't get. Whether Coin was responsible for bombing th..."
Well I think it's more of a stretch to assume that Coin didn't know who Prim was than to say she did. She knew all about Katniss being the Mockingjay and knew all about her volunteering in Prim's place. Katniss lived with Prim in district 13 and Coin was the one who gave her the room so while we don't see her knowledge of Prim, it's kind of assumed on these basis. Also, Prim wasn't a doctor yet, she hadn't even started training, she would have needed someone high up in District 13 to get her into the front lines in the Capitol. Why would anyone allow someone as untrained as she was to be put on the front lines unless they had a motive and who had one apart from Coin?
As for others learning of the bomb through our history, it's never stated if they have record of our history in Panem, or if it's our history that Panem has (just because it's set in the same world doesn't mean the same things have happened in it). Also the technique, which is not new to us readers, is new to all the people in the book that we know of, which indicates that it is a new technique to the people of Panem and that they don't have prior knowledge of that tactic.
You're right about there being no conclusive evidence, hence why there's a debate. But I think most of the facts in the book point to one result and that's Coin. Its much more far fetched to assume these things that were never mentioned in the book; that others knew of Gale's tactic; that there were Snow supporters who had access to an aircraft (yet used it to kill children instead of getting Snow out of there?); that Coin didn't know who Prim was.
It seems too convenient: Prim being under-qualified but on the front line, Coin wanting to shut Katniss up but not being able to kill her directly, Gale's technique and bomb which belonged to District 13, Snow not escaping if he had access to an aircraft. Things make sense if it was Coin, they don't add up if it wasn't no matter how many times I consider it...
If Gale's bombing technique had actually been used in the war, and the Peacemakers noticed, they could have imitated it. What doesn't make sense is, why would Coin use such an elaborate subterfuge when she could have had Prim killed by, say, poisoned medication? Nobody's answered that question.
I still like my idea better: A rogue crew of Peacemakers did it, seizing the opportunity to wipe out a few rebel troops when they came in to save the survivors of the first bomb. Snow doesn't have to order this. The crew knew he was doomed. They just wanted to kill a few more rebels before the surrender.
I know what Suzanne Collins intended us to believe. She wants us to believe Katniss, even though that entails trusting Snow! But if that's her intention, Collins failed to characterize Alma Coin properly. Coin needs to be shown doing things that lead up to the bombing of the children.
Betty wrote: "If Gale's bombing technique had actually been used in the war, and the Peacemakers noticed, they could have imitated it. What doesn't make sense is, why would Coin use such an elaborate subterfug..."
Because killing Prim in such an obvious way would put Coin in danger. She couldn't be found out if she used a bomb. I don't think it was that elaborate. She sent Prim into the front line of medics and then bombed them, it doesn't seem all that complicated. It also boosted sympathy from the Capitol people since it was their children who were bombed and they would think it was Snow.
The question with the Snow rebels is why, if they had an aircraft, did they not rescue Snow with it? Also, how did Prim get to the front lines? Why did they bomb their own children instead of just bombing the District 13 soldiers?
The reason we don't see Coin doing anything is because the book's in first person, there's not really a lot Collin's could do, being the president means we don't actually see Coin that much in the book but pretty much every opportunity it was mentioned that there was something not right about her.
We know she wanted to keep Katniss' mouth shut, and we know she wasn't against using immoral means or putting her own soldiers in danger (she sent Peeta in with them), and we knew she was a corrupt leader who wanted to keep her power. I get that you don't like believing Snow, but he never really lied to Katniss in any of the books, he was a horrible cruel character but he wasn't really a liar like Coin was made out to be in the book.
I believe that Coin killed Prim, along with everyone else that was around her
Clear indicator that it was Gale and Coin and 13 when Gale accepted why Katniss no longer wanted anything to do with him. If they were innocent, I personally think Gale would have tried to persuade Katniss with all he's got. Gale felt some fault, it wasn't him that gave the order, but he did create those bombs and Prim and others were following orders. Maybe that's just my romaticized version....
Making a gun doesn't mean you're responsible for someone else using it to kill someone. If it were like that then Peeta's hijacking wouldn't be Snow's fault, because Snow wasn't the one who nvented Tracker Jacker venom.
Sheechiibii wrote: "Making a gun doesn't mean you're responsible for someone else using it to kill someone. If it were like that then Peeta's hijacking wouldn't be Snow's fault, because Snow wasn't the one who nvented..."I have had this argument on multiple discussion. I have actually used the gun analogy. I have read your post and agree with you, but you can keep on trying to argue,it's not going to work.
If i stole a bomb from the military and used it on people, would you blame me or the maker of said bomb?
If i used my shoe to beat someone to death, would you blame me or the maker of the shoe?
COIN! Gale was innocent!!!
COIN! Gale was innocent!!!
COIN! Gale was innocent!!!
COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN COIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Leave Gale alone! He's innocent!
I feel pretty sure it was Coin.
Because killing Prim in such an obvious way would put Coin in danger. She couldn't be found out if she used a bomb. I don't think it was that elaborate. She sent Prim into the front line of medics and then bombed them, it doesn't seem all that complicated. It also boosted sympathy from the Capitol people since it was their children who were bombed and they would think it was Snow.No, an entire hovercraft crew would have to be implicated. Lots of mouths to blab. Poisoning Prim would require only one corrupt nurse.
The reason we don't see Coin doing anything is because the book's in first personYes, and Coin isn't the first person. Katniss is. This is why it was a mistake to tell the whole story through Katniss' point of view. I'm a published novelist and I've used a single point of view only in my first novel. It worked there. My second novel has several. Subsequent novels will be the same.
Betty wrote: "Because killing Prim in such an obvious way would put Coin in danger. She couldn't be found out if she used a bomb. I don't think it was that elaborate. She sent Prim into the front line of medics ..."I'm just going to paste a few things here. The first one is from Mockingjay Wikipedia.
At Snow's execution, Katniss thinks back to her conversation with Snow, and realizes someone high up would have to give permission for Prim to be on the front lines despite her young age; making it look like the Capitol killed Prim would push Katniss's loyalty to Coin and would also drive a wedge between the Capitol and Snow.
This one is from The Hunger Games Wiki.
After the Capitol children barricaded at President Snow's mansion were injured by explosions caused by rebels dropping parachutes (identical to the ones used by tributes' sponsors during the Games) carrying bombs of the same design that Gale and Beetee devised during Mockingjay (Which President Coin had ordered to do so), she runs in to help an injured child and hears Katniss calling her name. Before Katniss can reach her and bring her to safety, the second wave of bombs explodes, killing Prim and other medics
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