"The Eye of the World" Final Thoughts *Spoilers Untagged*

[CBRetriever]

keep in mind the superstitious nature of cultures at that level of development plus the fact that they were taking men and women with a shred of talent and either training or gentling them.....

[Francisca]

Ritchie wrote: "I think people might be being a little dismissive of Rand as a character. Don't forget - unlike Rand al'Thor - Mat and Perrin are (more or less) free. Rand has had a very great obligation laid upon..."

Well, technically we don't find this out until the end, even if it's super obvious throughout the book. (view spoiler)[ Actually, we don't even really find out that he's the Dragon until the last line - and that's not really confirmed since all we officially know is that he can channel... which others have been able to do before him. (hide spoiler)] I'd argue all three have the same obligation on them, at least in this first instalment. I actually found Rand somewhat underdeveloped and bland compared to the other characters in the first book, though this in part may be because (view spoiler)[ his extended sequence comes at the very end, while Perrin's struggle with wolves and Mat's with the dagger come earlier and help round out their characters through those. (hide spoiler)] And because, like Allison mentioned above, I'm now more used to reading character-driven fantasy.

[Mason]

I would agree that all the boys had the same obligation upon leaving Two Rivers. No one knew at the beginning that (view spoiler)[Rand was more important than them. Which you could also argue that they each have their own importance along the wheel and almost equal obligation. You see that a lot more in later books though. (hide spoiler)]

[Michele]

Ritchie wrote: "Don't forget that the male Aes Sedai "broke the world" - and of course people remember that..."

Right, I think that's a big part of it, which makes the Aes Sedai kind of a double threat: Male Aes Sedai can destroy the world, while female ones sniff around like some kind of Inquisition, hunting down men who show the merest hint of magic.

[AndrewP]

I still can't figure out what the Whitecloaks motivations are. They are against the dark ones and the false Dragon, but also against the Aes Sedai, who are are on the same side. From the story so far it seems (view spoiler)[ that they would not have been able to capture the false Dragon without the Aes Sesdai. Are they just medieval obstructionist dick heads? (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

AndrewP wrote: medieval obstructionist dick heads"

lol! I think this was the first name they bandied about for their group, before settling on whitecloaks as it was easier to say.

[Sedat]

AndrewP wrote: "I still can't figure out what the Whitecloaks motivations are. They are against the dark ones and the false Dragon, but also against the Aes Sedai, who are are on the same side. From the story so f..."

You'll learn some of their motives better at the latter books, but yeah basically most of them are morons ^^

[CBRetriever]

think of the Whitecloaks as either Puritans or as the Faith Militant from Game of Thrones or as the Inquisition coupled with the Catholic church or Nazis zealously hunting out those who were even part Jewish

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

CBRetriever wrote: "think of the Whitecloaks as either Puritans or as the Faith Militant from Game of Thrones or as the Inquisition coupled with the Catholic church or Nazis zealously hunting out those who were even p..."

Exactly so.

[Michele]

CBRetriever wrote: "think of the Whitecloaks as either Puritans or as the Faith Militant from Game of Thrones or as the Inquisition coupled with the Catholic church or Nazis zealously hunting out those who were even p..."

Yup, that's it in a nutshell.

[Ashley in Wonderland]

I finally finished and unfortunately I don't think this series is going to be for me. There were several parts of the adventure that I enjoyed (like The Ways...very cool!), but it was too long-winded and slow, had too many characters I really didn't care much about (the Warder & the Aes Sedai were my favorites, simply because they're badasses, I also kind of like Nynaeve although I'm confused about her motives), and too many of what I considered blatant comparisons to too many things I love (LOTR, The Once & Future King, even Star Wars) that I just couldn't let those slide. I liked the mythology but there wasn't enough of it. I feel like the myths and legends are such a huge part of this series but yet after almost 700 pages I am still not very familiar with them. And I was not interested enough after reading said pages to then read the huge appendix (index?) at the end, even if it would've given me more info. I would have rather had all that info in the story, rather than countless meaningless descriptions and repetitiveness. I also feel like the plot is not defined in this book, and after reading summaries of a few of the subsequent books, I still don't know that I understand what the basic plot is. (view spoiler)[So Rand is the "dragon reborn," but what does that mean exactly and what is he supposed to do? What is his destiny? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around 14 long books like this, all leading up to...what exactly? Rand has to save the world I guess? Why does it take 14 books to do that? I dunno. I just don't have enough information and I'm not interested enough to read thousands more pages.. (hide spoiler)]

[Anthony]

I’m only a bit more than a third of the way through this mammoth tome (of course my schedule has been unusually busy and unforgiving at the same time as the reread occurred, making my progress annoyingly slow), and I found it very odd that (view spoiler)[ for the first time in the book, aside from the prologue, in the middle of chapter 20, the third-person POV suddenly shifted from Rand’s to Perrin’s. It’s made me wonder whether such shifts will continue to occur from this point forward, and it certainly made me wonder whether Robert Jordan had contemplated doing so any earlier in the text. (hide spoiler)]

[Anthony]

And lo and behold, chapter 21 (view spoiler)[ starts with Nynaeve’s POV. I have to say in some ways these shifts in POV are welcome. I just wonder at the choice to wait so very long to start incorporating them. (hide spoiler)]

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

There are tons and tons of shifting points of view throughout the series. Readers will see through the eyes of every major character. We readers will get to know every character very well.

This series is a journey. 11095 pages in total more or less, with each book running about 800-1000 pages. However, I loved the series and bought the books to read again some day. I liked it. It will not be to everyone's taste, obviously. Jordan was a free spirit in mind and he was an educated man, particularly in the area of myths. He disguised a lot of what people either believe today or used to believe in centuries past in other major religions transferring these myths into new and fun plot points. Some readers become annoyed at the lengthy twists and turns, others start realizing they are bored or hate the characters or basic plot, some do not like recognizing a particular religious belief they actually believe in today in the plot and either get scared or insulted, depending on their personality.

Robert Jordan actually died of cancer before completing the series, which he wrote from 1990 to 2006, but the author who completed it for him writes exactly like Jordan, and Jordan left notes on how he wanted the plot to continue. Brandon Sanderson finished the series by writing the last three books in the series, for a total of 14 books, not counting a prequel, which means the main books in the series are actually 15, I guess, although the prequel is about the people who started all of the trouble several generations ago and all are kinda dead, sort of.

Everyone selects a favorite character in the first book, but each character grows up and changes, so readers may end up liking a different character by the 8th book, and then change their mind again by the 14th. (view spoiler)[I started out hating Matt, but adored him by the 14th. (hide spoiler)]

[YouKneeK]

Anthony wrote: "And lo and behold, chapter 21 [spoilers removed]"

Below are very minor spoilers in response to the comments in your spoiler tags. This is more about the storytelling structure than the plot, but does discuss the general structure of the series beyond book 1:

(view spoiler)[This series isn’t a single-POV type of story, although it does seem like that in the beginning. My impression was that Jordan tried to start the series very simply and slowly turn up the complexity, kind of like boiling a lobster alive. :) If you continue the series, you’ll eventually find that this simple story has somehow turned into a complex web of plot threads and characters.

From what I remember, the first book started changing POVs only after the characters were separated. This allows the reader to see what’s happening with the different sets of characters instead of being confined to only what Rand knows. These POV shifts will only increase throughout the series as storylines diverge, so that the reader knows what’s going on everywhere. Actually, Jordan will put the reader in the POV of pretty much anybody, even very minor characters, if it allows him to show the reader something he wants them to know. (hide spoiler)]

[Anthony]

At the halfway point, I find the book mildly entertaining. I keep waiting for it to really kick into a higher gear. And I wonder why (view spoiler)[Perrin doesn’t enjoy the discovery that he has some ability to communicate with wolves. Seems like that would be a fantastic discovery to make. (hide spoiler)]

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Heehee! It's nice seeing someone else share my feeling about this book. I'm sorry it's not changing your whole world, Anthony, but it is entertaining to me to see how you're processing this mammoth.

[Anthony]

Allison wrote: "Heehee! It's nice seeing someone else share my feeling about this book. I'm sorry it's not changing your whole world, Anthony, but it is entertaining to me to see how you're processing this mammoth."

I’ve been extremely spoiled this year, reading so many books that featured a distinctive author’s voice, a strong point of view, and thrillingly rich and emotional stories. This book, on the other hand, is very middle of the road in many ways. Except for the prologue, I haven’t had any trouble with the writing for the most part, and I do find the world to be convincingly rendered. I find the central mysteries intriguing, and I do, for the most part, enjoy the characters. I’m just finding the actual reading of it to be a bit of a slog. And again, not because it’s bad or making my eyes roll or anything of the sort. It’s just not stirring my soul... I’ve had many folks, including a couple of my close friends, talk about how much they love this series. I definitely want to keep giving it a chance...

[Jemppu]

Allison wrote: "... but it is entertaining to me to see how you're processing this mammoth."

:D Won't deny I wouldn't find it interesting too, to follow the seemingly-more-struggled-than-usual process, but that's just mean *hah*

In awe of the determination, though!

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Mm...I actually do not like the writing, mostly. I think maybe if this book was under 400 pages I'd find it a lot more compelling, but the repeats, the strings of descriptions, the way things are dropped on us and THEN explained after the fact...I think this book is a lesson in why outlining is so important for so many.

But I also can't throw too many stones. I think this series resonates for people because of nostalgia to an extent. Some got into the genre with WoT, some of us with Belgariad. They're neither of them what I'd call superlative examples of fantasy, but I'll be damned if I don't still stan for Polgara.

[Bobby]

@Anthony, I've always thought it gets better and better as it goes. It's just such a huge story that it takes time to get going. Much of the complexity develops later as you see how everything comes together and how the characters grow. What April said above about opinions on the characters changing over the course of the 14 books is very true.

That being said, sometimes you just find a book or author that doesn't work for you despite the high ratings, and there's nothing wrong with that. There's been plenty of books that I don't enjoy, even though others think they are amazing.

[Anthony]

I guess when I say I don’t find the writing bad, I mean the actual prose. Sentence structure, rhythm, dialogue, for the most part is relatively fluid and clean and not the source of any major complaints. (Except for that insanely over-the-top prologue.) But yes, in terms of structure, narrative engine, and a sense of dramatic stakes that feel earned, I do find the writing lacking. And again, I’ve been spoiled by so many exceedingly fine writers, whose gifts can imbue just about any page with the palpable thrill of being in the presence of language that is beautiful and poetic and moving. Mr. Jordan wasn’t in the same vicinity as those folks.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Aaahh, I see what you mean. Yes, agreed.

[Wen]

You guys are so unbelievable good at saying things...I felt I am only ten now>_< This book sounds quite interesting but will wait till Christmas then...

[Anthony]

In the middle of chapter 33. There have been some interesting action set pieces (view spoiler)[ involving avoiding creepy clouds of ravens and dealing with a skanky innkeeper and a Darkfriend merchant (hide spoiler)] but man (view spoiler)[ there are SO MANY inns and SO MANY leathery-faced farmers. Robert Jordan tends to repeat aspects of his world over and over...

I also still don’t know — and maybe we will find out? — why Perrin is so very freaked out by the idea of being able to communicate with wolves. I mean some sort of superstition of a curse is vaguely alluded to, but there aren’t enough details to really understand or feel much empathy for his plight. It just seems to me like a badass ability that a young man would be amazed to discover he has.

I also don’t understand the internal rhythms of Jordan’s decisions to jump around between the scattered members of the party. We’ve now been with Rand and Mat for at least 3 chapters in a row. It feels like an eon since we’ve seen hide or hair of Moiraine. (hide spoiler)]

So I continue to have an intermittently enjoyable experience, having moments of being genuinely intrigued by the unfolding tale, followed by bafflingly flaccid, repetitive stretches.

[Jemppu]

Anthony wrote: "In the middle of chapter 33. There have been some interesting action set pieces [spoilers removed] but man [spoilers removed] ..."

This description makes it sound like a rpg filled with stock characters.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

All Perrin wants is to be a village blacksmith, get married, have a dozen kids, be a grandpa some day? He is a conventional conservative small-town boy without any other ambition than to be a good neighbor, father, husband. He loves his life in the village and he loves his place in the community. He knows he will love lifting a few at the local pub, enjoying the company of his fellow villagers. His life is stretching out before him, to live with love, laughter and community - which is exactly what he wants, I think. (view spoiler)[But this wolf whisperer ability is not the freedom he wants, having it is to be a pariah, an outcast. Maybe no wife, no kids. (hide spoiler)]

[Anthony]

aPriL does feral sometimes wrote: "All Perrin wants is to be a village blacksmith, get married, have a dozen kids, be a grandpa some day? He is a conventional conservative small-town boy without any other ambition than to be a good ..."

That’s all well and good, but that hasn’t exactly been laid out in a way that I feel his inner life. I mean in a general sense, I get that these guys are all Simple Folk, but I would imagine there would be at least some sense of *wonder* at some of the benefits they’re discovering as they finally see and experience the wider world.

[Anthony]

@April, I don’t know what your spoiler contains and I’m loathe to read it because I avoid any spoilers at all. Does it refer to anything that’s already happened by chapter 33? If it instead refers to knowledge gained by later chapters and/or other books in the series, I’ll avoid reading it for now. Please let me know. Thanks!

[Bobby]

Anthony, I'll respond to your spoilers up to chapter 33 without spoiling anything past that. (view spoiler)[At this point you know men go crazy when they do magic, and even the women magic users are regarded as little more than witches everyone is wary of. Combined with the fact that Perrin comes from a small farming community where anything out of the ordinary is frowned upon, it's not too surprising that he's freaked out.

There is a lot more exploration of the wolf power later on, especially in the next book, but I know most people don't want to wait multiple books for a storyline to develop. (hide spoiler)]

[Anthony]

Jemppu wrote: "Anthony wrote: "In the middle of chapter 33. There have been some interesting action set pieces [spoilers removed] but man [spoilers removed] ..."

This description makes it sound like a rpg filled..."

It’s sort of that, yes. I guess that’s the main issue I’m having, over all the other issues. I don’t feel for these characters in a way that I want to. I feel a general sense of dread for them in their plight, and I appreciate that the boys feel a friendship and bond, and that the young women are trying to make sense of their place in the world...but no moment has yet really touched my heart, and I think that should be a goal of any adventure story...

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Well, I have finished the series, so. Don't want to spoil. The wonders are kinda bad.

[Anthony]

Bobby wrote: "Anthony, I'll respond to your spoilers up to chapter 33 without spoiling anything past that."

Again, we only sort of vaguely know that there are some rumors about magic users, but the towns do have a Wisdom, who at the very least dabbles in herbology, and possibly alchemy, and has some soothsaying abilities...I’m not sure what indication we’ve been given that (view spoiler)[an ability to talk to animals is the same as wielding magic, nor why such a thing would be so terrifying and upsetting. I’m being asked, in a way, to take things that a character is struggling with on faith without really being taken on the internal journey that I believe Jordan is attempting to take us on. (hide spoiler)]

[Anthony]

@April I’m sorry, I don’t know what you mean by “the wonders are kind of bad.”

[CBRetriever]

don't forget:

(view spoiler)[in this world of Jordan's, men with any kind of magic or powers are considered dangerous and are usually driven out of the community or in some way "controlled" much like witches in the Middle Ages and in New England in the 1600s were burned at the stake. It was dangerous (hide spoiler)]

[Anthony]

CBRetriever wrote: "don't forget:

[spoilers removed]"

If this was explained in a way that it would make sense for naive villagers to know it and internalize it, I missed it.

[CBRetriever]

There seems to be a general mistrust of any and all sorts of "magic"/"powers". Look at the fear of the Aes Sedai.... And the fear that the village elders have of the Wisdoms even when they're young girls....

try this for reasons:

https://www.reddit.com/r/WoT/comments...

[Anthony]

I’m just saying that I don’t *feel* it the way I do, say, the mistrust of Magic users in Harry Potter, or in The Broken Earth Trilogy. Basically I am being told a lot of things about the world he’s created without really getting to feel like I’m living inside of it. Everything is sort of at a remove and abstract. And I’m trying to figure out why...

[Jemppu]

Does it perhaps crumble under it's own grand scale then? Told like an epic would: acknowledging things happening and them affecting people, but the closer, personal feelings are left unspoken or unexplored? Are the characters to be seen through their own eyes, or as some distant heroes of legends? Is there any inner dialogue? Or just eye witness accounts?

[Anthony]

There is inner dialogue, there are dreams (which are inherently subjective), and the third-person narrative voice is firmly from a particular character’s POV, which shifts between chapters, although not in a consistent manner. And that shifting didn’t begin until chapter 20. He’s made an effort to get us inside these characters’ minds and hearts. I’m trying to figure out what aspect of the writing is keeping me at bay from really feeling for them.

[Jemppu]

Yes, I know this exploration all too well. The revelation may come long after one's done with the work, perhaps upon reflecting it to some other work. So, maybe best to not try too hard right now, and just let it be what it is. It'll hit, when it'll hit. If it doesn't right away, it just might not be the most opportune moment. Take this as getting to know the work, and let it mull later. It may very well jump back at you on some unexpected occasion in the future.

In fact, I've personally found some of the best, most touching works being this way. Not instant hits, but turn out to be 'classics'. Life long companions, complexities of which one gets to know over years, rather than just easily understood quick crushes.

...or something that just never does it for you in this lifetime :D But that'll be apparent only in the end.

[aPriL does feral sometimes]

Anthony wrote: "There is inner dialogue, there are dreams (which are inherently subjective), and the third-person narrative voice is firmly from a particular character’s POV, which shifts between chapters, althoug..."

I'm guessing here, but perhaps it isn't the writing that is what you cannot get inside and be the character but it is the author's headspace:

Goodreads biographical notes on the author quoted below:

"Jordan was born in Charleston, South Carolina. He served two tours in Vietnam (from 1968 to 1970) with the United States Army as a helicopter gunner. He was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross with bronze oak leaf cluster, the Bronze Star with "V" and bronze oak leaf cluster, and two Vietnamese Gallantry Crosses with palm. After returning from Vietnam he attended The Citadel where he received an undergraduate degree in physics. After graduating he was employed by the United States Navy as a nuclear engineer. He began writing in 1977. He was a history buff and enjoyed hunting, fishing, sailing, poker, chess, pool, and pipe collecting.

He described himself as a "High Church" Episcopalian and received communion more than once a week. He lived with his wife Harriet McDougal, who works as a book editor (currently with Tor Books; she was also Jordan's editor) in a house built in 1797.

Responding to queries on the similarity of some of the concepts in his Wheel of Time books with Freemasonry concepts, Jordan admitted that he was a Freemason. However, "like his father and grandfather," he preferred not to advertise, possibly because of the negative propaganda against Freemasonry. In his own words, "no man in this country should feel in danger because of his beliefs.""

I myself have nothing in common with a scientific-minded tough outdoor enthusiast military warrior. I am a helpless perfumed ex-secretary city type with high-pitched social laughter who admires pretty art I pretend to understand on free museum days or going to foo-foo malls window-shopping. But having been married to a fellow who probably is a high-functioning autism spectrum man for forty years who can never look directly at me and talks constantly of weather and cars has taught me while there are areas of overlap, there are characters we are completely simpatico with and those we have to watch without understanding.

No matter how good a writer may be, or how old and experienced, he still is writing from an internal viewpoint based on himself, as well as trying to imagine people like me or you.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

That's a good point, April, we may not be on the same "wavelength" as Jordan.

For me, Jordan feels like a newbie author with decent instincts, a grand plan, little to no storytelling finesse and a good case of graphomania.

The style reminds me of those friends who tell stories without whittling down the details, and with copious pauses to remember insignificant details (And then she went out. I think she went to Melissa's? Or was it Megan's? No, it couldn't have been Megan, because...") I get that feeling a lot when inspiration rather than organization has gotten us to some point in a book. A lot of the stuff we learn and see is cool, but I never understand why we're seeing this now, and I think the answer is "because the author wanted to write this now, and also it was time to hit a plot point."

I am led to believe, by how consistent a story we're told by those who've finished the series, that the world does become more than the physical aspects at some point, that sometime we learn more about the culture, the beliefs, local flavor etc. of the world, but in book 1 I'm not sure if Jordan has it all figured out himself. And if he does, then I suspect I'm heading to The Big Twist/Reveal for which I needed to remain ignorant or I wouldn't be surprised.

[Anthony]

I’m almost done. Finally. It has continued to be a slog, peppered here and there with faint glimmers of hope that it could maybe get better. I just finished chapter 47. (view spoiler)[ I mean I know Jordan made no bones about being influenced by/ripping off LOTR, but in back to back chapters we have the full-on official reveals that Lan isn’t just like Aragorn when Aragorn was Strider, but he’s like Aragorn the King; and that Padan Fain is our Smeagol/Gollum. Do all of the lovers of these books not grow tired of these similarities? Or are they just seen as tributes? Or do the lovers of these books not know LOTR?

I’m also getting more and more frustrated by what feels like a deeply underfed sense of the complexities of human behavior when it comes to Rand. His reactions to the unfolding events are so all over the map, and very few of them ring true, nor build to a consistent personality. I’ve noticed in the last couple of chapters lots and lots of grinning from him and others. I mean *grinning* is the word used. Not smirking or smiling. Something about that is also very irritating. It seems to me that for people to grin they need to be really happy and/or really amused by something. (hide spoiler)]

Anyway, I will be glad to finally finish this beast and put it behind me.

[Anthony]

Blargh. So disappointing. I suppose now I will know what folks are talking about when they refer to this book. But I’m not sure I will ever understand how something so repetitive and derivative and wooden and filled with unearned moments became so wildly popular. I’ve been told the series gets better as it goes on but in this moment I can’t imagine continuing.

[Jemppu]

Anthony wrote: "I suppose now I will know what folks are talking about when they refer to this book..."

Indeed, that might be the best take away from such a disappointment. And it will also offer a good counter point to reflect other works upon.

[Rachel]

I can’t help but question the use of derivative to describe this series. As I understand it most everything else (epic fantasy) is derivative from it, lol. (Excepting of course LoTR)

Of course when I read it I had never encountered anything at all like it so perhaps it’s all about when you first read it (I feel this way about many Hugo award winning classics and try to remind myself that it would have been groundbreaking back whenever haha)

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

Sorry, Rachel. Epic fantasy was alive and well by 1990. This was published 8 years after Pawn of Prophecy and the first Shannara book, for example. And almost all of the characters besides the main band are straight out of other books or fairytales--at least in name, appearance, and manners.

[Rachel]

Yep I was thinking more and I think it was just MY introduction to epic fantasy (I could never get through LoTR - talk about slow and plodding *ducks*)

Thinking back we should were a staunchly Sci-fi f family so I only had seen fantasy like from Cherryh, or McCaffrey; and of course kids classics like the three children and it, or the wrinkle in Time,

So you’re saying I should pick up the first Shanarra book that’s been sitting in my shelf for years 🤔

[Rachel]

Thinking more I wonder how much of people’s feeling are state dependent here. You guys feel like forcing yourself (which is how I’ve been feeling about the Zelazny Amber series which everyone loves)

Whereas I was given the eye of the world while working at a call center. Literally the BEST thing to read in that situation 😆