A Storm of Swords
discussion
The red wedding what are your thoughts?
That's generally the explanation that gets presented, Nelson. Personally, I don't buy it. Most of the changes have been unnecessary. The scenes with Robb are a pretty good example. They aren't just different from the original material, they differ in character and conflict with existing themes. As your mom pointed out, Tywin left his home undefended? Seems unlikely.The scenes with Podrick in the previous two episodes haven't got anything to do with the story. Their just extraneous. Maybe they have something in mind, but there's plenty of material in the actual books that they've left out or cut down.
Almost always, I think film/video adaptations should stick to the author's work as much as possible. After all, it's a proven success. If film makers or TV adapters want to add or change something they better have a very good reason. Why take something that's already been successful and chance failure on it? It's like discarding four cards of a winning hand in the hopes of getting another winning hand... and about as likely to work.
Maybe you don't buy it. But if so, it is then a matter of taste. Robb scenes are necessary in the show. Why? because he's an important character, he's one of the kings and the general audience who don't read the books mostly want to see action. King Robb is going to pick a fight at Casterly Rock? Hell Yeah! They need to put Robb in an active position. It's not enough to say "Oh I'm going to Freys so we can be friends again" No. It needs to be "I'm going to the Freys to get an army and kick some Lannister's butt" He's a fan favorite. That's why his whole story that we mostly experience through Cat's POV in the books is being shown in the show.
Podrick's scenes are also necessary. Why? First: Comic relief. Every tv show needs this. No drama can be too serious. series like The Wire, Breaking Bad, Sons of Anarchy are really powerful dramas with a lot of heavy stuff going on and they have comic relief, because is necessary. Making an effort for people to laugh among all the chaos
And second: There's the need for the audience who don't read the books to get to know this character. Because as you know. In the future Podrick will be a lot more relevant. With these scenes they are portraying him as a good lad, who is capable of doing things that just by looking at him, you wouldn't believe him capable of.
Rememeber, in the TV show we cannot go inside the characters heads and hear what they are thinking. So we cannot get to know Podrick through Tyrion's POV. There's the need to show him doing something so we can see it. Which leads to my other point.
Why take something that's already been successful and chance failure on it? I tell you why. Because books and TV are two different things, and what works in the books not necessarily works in TV.
In the books GRRM can write 30 pages abut how delicious the food is at Dorne. All of this while making the characters talk about some back story. Those 30 pages work perfectly in the book, but on TV they wouldn't so.
In the books GRRM can make Robb and Jaime disappear for almost all the extension of the second book. That would not have work on TV.
In the books Dany arrives to Qarth and does basically nothing in her stay, she just walks the city and meets a lot of people who go to see her because of her Dragons. Dany has only 5 chapters in ACOK. That works in the books but it doesn't work on TV.
So, you have to understand the limitations of TV as a medium. That includes budget, shooting schedule, episode format, episode length of 1 hour tops, casting, season build up, etc. If you do, you'll see that compromises and changes need to be made. Battles need to be cut out, characters need to be merge or simply erased, characters need to go to their arc's climax more quickly and others need to be stretch.
So they have a good reason to add or change stuff? Yes, they have. I'm sure that D&D wouldn't like nothing more than have infinite budget, 23 episodes seasons and no ratings pressure. So they can be free to make an adaptation with every little detail, every battle, every character, and don't change anything to fit TV conceptions or limitations.
I would love that! But sadly that perfect scenario is not possible.
Well, that'd be a pretty good manifesto for filmmakers and TV producers who want to change things. You and I are just not going to come to terms on this one.... :) I see that kind of thing as a bad justification for egocentric production. Filmmakers and TV producers start to confuse the original materials with their own creative work, and think they are the driving force behind their success rather than the author who invented it from scratch. It is, at best, ego masquerading as creativity using the vagaries of the medium as a rationalization for discarding an already successful story.I think it's more practical than that in at least one regard that I've already mentioned: the book is already a success. Millions of readers. We know it works. Changing it takes a proven success and turns it into an unknown.
As for the contention that you can have too much drama, and must have the occasional comic relief, I'd suggest that that is another example of the rationalization of film/TV production. It's just not true. Rather, it's based on existing TV and film applying their standards to another medium. TV has a set formulaic production and presentation, and a lot of people who work in that industry are locked into that box. They see it as the science of their industry.
Unfortunately, it's not really based on anything other than a circular logic. This is how TV has always been made, therefore it's how TV should be made, so if we're going to take something that is a success, we must change it to fit that mold, otherwise we've failed in our jobs to adapt. The formula gets applied, and the product becomes formulaic.
GoT already has plenty of material in it for people to enjoy. Does the audience need a laugh every 8-12 minutes? TV producers will insist that they do. I'm confident that people are capable of going a full hour without chuckling at clownish behavior or a few sex jokes.
In the case of Podrick's scenes, he's such a minor character that we don't need them at all. I have a theory as to why they included them, and I hope they have something in mind, but they needn't have had anything in mind to just go with the existing materials. Don't get me wrong, I like seeing pretty girls strut and writhe around as much as the next guy, but I don't mistake that with good storytelling.
The scene the Robb explaining his plan is another good example of the TV producers thinking the audience won't understand some basic action. We just had the scenes with Robb cutting off Carstark's head. That's strong stuff, and from the book. The character needs to be further developed by giving us a plan to borrow an army and attack the heart of his opponent in what is most likely one of his best defended strongholds? Hmmm. Not a good move.
I understand the TV producer's logic for including such a scene, but all they had to do was put him on the road traveling towards the Frey encampment. Or not. Just have him show up next episode (much the way it happened in the book) try to make amends with the Freys and lose. Easier all around, and truer to the source material.
Yes, I see that there will be not understanding between us. Just by saying that because because Podrick is such minor character we don't need his scenes... well...
I think Podrick is good to have around Nelson, but there were things that were actually in the book that could have filled the time slot of the show instead. Like the part where he actually saves Tyrion on the battlefield. Why was that cut out, but we have time for prostitutes?As for Dany, her story needed to be added to, true. Her story was boring in ACOK so I agree with you there. I also like the addition of the character of Ros, not sure why.
Celise, Podrick saving Tyrion is there in Season 2, Episode 9 "Blackwater" It was not cut out.Ros is a nice plot device to move the plot forward whenever is needed. I like her. Many purist hate her though D:
I totally missed Pod in that scene. Wow, okay.I think most people don't mind Ros because she doesn't really affect the other characters- at least not thus far. She seems to be taking an interest in Sansa now.
On the other hand we have Talisa, who is completely throwing me off. She didn't really know that Jon Snow existed, has no idea where Winterfell is on the map, and has to share with us her oh-so-touching story about how she became a nurse. It's too easy to blame her for Robb's fate.
At least my friends seem to be blaming Cat for everything :( Poor Cat. Yeah! she released Jaime. But she didn't force Robb to get married >___< That's his fault.
Cat in the show is a lot more um... mopey? Such a talented actress with such a poor character to play. She came off a lot stronger in the books. I really don't see how it could have been her fault, he got married when she wasn't even there. She hadn't even heard of Jeyne until they were wed.
I know! Every one of my friend hate her :S I don't understand. She always gives Robb good counsel, nobody listens to her... and well... there's consequences. Yeah, in the show she express more openly her feelings. In the books she mourns mostly in her mind. And is more strong in front of everybody.
i believe what happened was that robb was going to head back north to take on the iron islanders. after his marriage to jeyne westerling the frey troops abandoned him. as he knew he needed their support and since he needed to pass through the twins again the idea was he was to prostrate himself for walder frey and ask for his forgiveness and blessing, hopefully garnering an alliance again.ah, bless me. i was a whole page behind.
To answer the main question: "typical problem when the thinking doesn't happen in the brain anymore. that said, while he did not deserve what he got, he played with fire a whole lot in that regard. he knew how fragile the people involved were (mentally) but still crossed them. As a side note: they overreacted a bit, which can be felt later as how much the guest-right is weakened by this single event."The answer the side question: "No, he would not have done that."
I was so shocked! And heartbroken! Robb was one of my favorite characters and I feel so sorry for Jeyne. I was hoping he would pick up a narrative and drop Catelyn. She's always so melancholy. I'm not saying I don't feel for her, but the "woe is me" routine was getting old. Robb had so much going for him it just seems so unfair to have all that stolen from under him. Especially since he didn't want to trust the Freys in the first place!
Grey Wind should always be near Robb...
Robb was just like his father. From te begining, GRRM made clear that, if someone wants to control Westeros, he/she must have ambition. Robb was fighting for justice, and, in the world of Song of Fire and Ice, it is not a valid argument. I mean, come on, Walder Frey is a proud man, Catelyn told him. Instead of listening to her, he decides to mary another woman, just as Ned decides to conceal the truth from Robert Baratheon. Since nor Ned or Robb are malicious, their good intentions lead to stupidty, and stupidity leads to death.
What makes us think Robb may have a different destiny is that he turns out to be a great battle strategist. Ned was always following orders, Robb commands them. But They both think everyone has good manners, instead of wondering "What if...". That's the question every player asks before making a move. Robb was nothing but a piece, he was no game player.
I still struggle to understand Rob's action in marrying the other girl rather than committing to the marriage with a Frey. In every other action in the books he is honest, but committed to his cause, and then with almost no set up he marries another girl jeopardizing his alliance and whole campaign. The Red Wedding revenge is powerful writing and OK, but it was Rob's marriage I found difficult to understand, it felt contrived (imho), almost as if GRMM had a great scene written, The Red Wedding, then contrived the rest of the plot to fit. If he wanted Rob dead all he had to do was lose a close battle. The other deaths could have happened then just as easily for the rest of the plot unless it comes back again?
Overall Red Wedding great, but Rob's wedding poor, which then meant I had difficulty accepting the Red Wedding.
I am watching the TV adaption with interest to see if it fits better, but so far not.
In my eyes Robb did a bad thing,I don't think Ned would have,he would have just been with a woman out of wedlock.On the other hand wife-to-be would be travelling with army making it hard.Catelyn, pretty bossy but she knows how to play the game.Walder Frey big ole' ***hole that will eventually cost the lives of his entire family,I hope.
We forget that Robb was just like 15 years old... I think that had a lot to do in his stupid decision of marrying Jeyne.
Philip wrote: "I still struggle to understand Rob's action in marrying the other girl rather than committing to the marriage with a Frey. In every other action in the books he is honest, but committed to his cau..."Surely it's not that hard to understand? Robb sleeps with Jeyne when he is emotionally distraught over the news of Bran and Rickon's deaths. He is also wounded at the time. Plus, it's easy to forget, but he is a teenager: i.e. plain old hormones might have played a role as well. Once he had done the deed, however, honour dictated that he had to marry her. For a highborn girl in their society, virginity was vital. A girl known to have lost her virginity (even to a king) would have very few prospects of marriage (for example, Robb's own aunt Lysa, who was married off to an old man who just wanted a fertile woman to bear him heirs - and Lysa was from a much more powerful family than Jeyne). Robb was in a no-win situation: he would either have to dishonour his engagement to one of Walder Frey's daughters, or dishonour Jeyne by refusing to marry her despite sleeping with her. He chose the former, because dishonouring a general promise to a non-specific girl probably seemed less bad than dishonouring the girl right in front of him. In the long run, it turned out to be the terribly wrong choice - but when Robb made it, it probably seemed like a reasonable decision.
That is true,for a teenager hormones can take the lead.
I know plenty of adults who would have made the same "mistakes" that Robb did. The Red Wedding isn't really any more outlandish than the events of the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre or any number of other real world historical events.
I dont think Ned would have been very happy with him breaking an oath, but I dont think death was warranted.Chris wrote: "Best scene Martin has ever written. Really didn't see it coming at all."
Gotta agree with Chris and Attycorcoran, it was a huge surprise. Im on pins and needles waiting for it to happen on the show, just to see the look on my wifes face! Though for me, Joffrey's demise was far more satisfying. I jumped up and down when he bought the farm...Little bastard.
And I thought I was the only one gleefully happy with Joffery's death....
LOL, my boss thought I had won the lottery the way I was jumping up and down !
Yeah,that's something else,I can't wait 'till Joffrey chokes.
Steve wrote: "Gotta agree with Chris and Attycorcoran, it was a huge surprise. Im on pins and needles waiting for it to happen on the show, just to see the look on my wifes face!..."I'm in the same boat. Watching the show last night, my wife commented on how all this baby stuff, and focus on how much the new couple loves each other seems over the top. I had a hard time keeping my poker face on.
Derek wrote: "Steve wrote: "Gotta agree with Chris and Attycorcoran, it was a huge surprise. Im on pins and needles waiting for it to happen on the show, just to see the look on my wifes face!..."I'm in the sa..."
jaja
Personally I felt mostly intense relief that I would not have to read another chapter by Catelyn again (Spoiler alert: not really). I felt sad for Robb, but really it was not intense for me at all, I was more broken hearted about Prince Oberyn! That one caught me by surprise. I liked him so much.As to Robb deserving or not, I don't think he deserved it, but let's be honest here about the true impact of his actions. It did not jeopardized only his safety, it weakened his position in the war and put the life of his soldiers and his subjects all at risk. All the families that he was to protect just as much as his own. And for what? Because I think that marriage was more about lust than love from Robb's part and Jeyne's family was certainly after security, since the Lannisters revenge was sure to come for them. It was bad decision after bad decision in that war council, starting with Catelyn releasing the Kingslayer (cue "you are so dumb" gif).
So maybe he didn't deserve such a harsh punishment, but he certainly contributed to it actually happening.
Terri wrote: "Becky wrote: "Marina wrote: As for Ned, I think he did do the same thing as his son - I think he promised himself to Ashara Dane and was compelled to break that promise and to marry Catelyn. To go ..."His Mother is Neds sister. Ned took the secret to his grave.
Kathleen wrote: "The Freys were pissed off,but they would never have had the balls to kill Robb and his mother without backing from the Lannisters. Unfortunately, Robb lost a lot of credibility when his mother rele..."Kathleen, I think you've hit the nail on the head. I think the Lannisters (esp Tywin) were behind this 100%. Walter constantly vacillated in his loyalties. The Lannisters must have promised him something really significant for him to break with the protection hospitality guaranteed.
According to GRRM, the Red Wedding has historical roots in the Glencoe Massacre and 1 other event. The Black something? Both were Scottish events, interestingly enough.
I think GRRM was reminding us that despite Robb's battlefield success, he was still a teenager. I tend to forget the Stark kids are exactly that -- kids. I know that were I Robb with his successes, I'd probably think I was invulnerable.
Ahhh, teenager hubris. Such a short window for one's diehard belief in our invulnerability....
infael wrote: "According to GRRM, the Red Wedding has historical roots in the Glencoe Massacre and 1 other event. The Black something? Both were Scottish events, interestingly enough.
I think GRRM was reminding us that despite Robb's battlefield success, he was still a teenager. I tend to forget the Stark kids are exactly that -- kids.
Sandi: I think that we all forget this. We need to remember that Robb was only about 16. It's a shame that 1 bad choice on his part cost him everything. But life seldom flows as we wish.
I know that were I Robb with his successes, I'd probably think I was invulnerable.
Ahhh, teenager hubris. Such a short window for one's diehard belief in our invulnerability.... ..."
Well said!
I read in an interview of Martin, that he killed Robb just because everyone thought, that he will avenge his father. I think it is not a very good reason for killing a positive character. So for me the Red Wedding is just a shit. Now i doubt, that i want to see a 3d season of serial...
I knew Robb would die eventually. Especially after Stannis/Melisandre threw those three leeches into the fire. After the chapter with the Red Wedding I had to put the book aside for a bit (just a few minutes - was too curious to see what happens next). I was quite sad about Robb but was gleefully expecting Joff to die. :)
IMO Robb turned out to be a bit of a hypocrite. But that by no means justifies Walder Frey's actions. Horrible. Brutal. The only good thing about the Red Wedding to me was that it got rid of Catelyn (for a while).
Ice wrote: "IMO Robb turned out to be a bit of a hypocrite. But that by no means justifies Walder Frey's actions. Horrible. Brutal.
The only good thing about the Red Wedding to me was that it got rid of Cate..."
touche'
The only good thing about the Red Wedding to me was that it got rid of Cate..."
touche'
The problem with authors and the social media is that the authors can now futz with readers since they know what they fuss about ;)It certainly builds readership and big dollars and more book sales, not counting the side projects (which slow down the actual writing) of card games, board games, art, video games, et al.
Also, watching the show brings about the similarity to other books, like Dune and The Memory of Sorrow and Thorn. And I agree with the poster who remarked that as we go into more books, the writing needs to be tightened up (for tv viewing or just because it needs to be tightened up ;) )
And I always thought Robb was boring, and a redshirt from the beginning.
Another thought: Most good authors have a first rule: Kill off your darlings. It DOES work; if you don't think it does, read all these threads. LOL
As to Robb's decision- I thought I had read some speculation that Jayne's mother dabbled in magic and perhaps had used that to sway Robb. Has anyone else heard anything about that?
Rachel wrote: "Also, Stark men are known for their excess of honor: it's their fatal flaw. I think, in this series, blood Starks are the only characters that actually stay dead...Poor Robb, and poor Ned..."Yeah, the fans of this series (of which I am NOT, btw) keep saying that. Too bad it isn't true. In both cases their downfall is by doing something spectacularly stupid and profoundly dishonorable.
First, let's take Ned. He tries to convince Cersei to flee. Cersei, the one responsible for several murders and acts of treason. Conspiring with a traitor is itself treason, as well as personal disloyalty to his best friend. Making it even worse is his position; the man who is roughly analogous to the Attorney General is trying to let a violent criminal escape justice. The honorable thing to do would have been to immediately arrest both her and her brother, placing them under heavy guard, and levy formal charges.
His son is no better, breaking an alliance in the middle of a war for some pathetic teenage crush. "The fate of the nation, the hopes of my followers, the fact that I gave my word, justice for my father...none of that matters, I'm gonna get laid!"
I wasn't that upset about Robb's death. It was kind of a bummer, I guess, from some sort of standpoint. Overall, I think Robb was being kind of rotten to people. Robb always wanted other people to do the "honorable" thing but when something better came along for him, he took it. He had an agreement with the Freys to marry a Frey. As soon as he comes across a girl he likes he marries her.The real kicker is after he gets married and the Freys get angry Robb wants to force Edmure to marry a Frey to get himself out of trouble. Low Robb. Low. You can't expect other people to do things for you that you aren't willing to do yourself.
I'm kind of glad he died. He was really just messing things up for a lot of people.
Yeah, I always thought GRRM's writing on Robb was weak. Cued me in that he wasn't going to be around long. I WAS surprised at Ned's demise though. He was the Hand of the King, so he kinda was the Law. And Royals always were above any law anywhere ;)
Mark, wait till you see what happens with Catelyn ;)
It's been awhile since I read the books,I remember when I finished the chapter about the Red Wedding I just thought "holy shit".
Jared wrote: "if anyone hasn't read storm of swords! get out of this question now!!!!! This same scene was spoiled to me before i read the book and i hated that spoil!Personally, Robb was my favorite characte..."
I loved Robb too. So sad to see him gone. Yes, he broke a promise, but it was a crummy situation in the first place (only agreed to take one of those ugly Frey women to help Ned...who was already irretrievably up Poop Creek)
He made an honorable choice toward the woman he married, but it wasn't a Ned/Horton-the-Elephant choice (i.e. I meant what I said and I said what I meant, an elephant's faithful 100%). Like so many Starks before, he made the best of a lose-lose situation....and lost. I'm still sad about it, though.
You make a really valid argument.
I just thought the Red Wedding was a complete shock, I didn't see it coming. I didn't think that Robb would be killed so soon. I was sad that he died, but then again he was 16, barely a man, what chance did he really have against the other much more experienced game players.
Does anyone else think that the westerling family pushed Jeyne on Rob for Tywin? Its known that grey wind didn't like Jeyne's brother and tried to kill him. Tywin knew Rob would marry the girl and break his pact with the Frey's even if he didn't love her. He had to do what he thought was honorable.
The reaction of the anger and insult felt by the Freys' for Robb's broken promise exemplifies the Stark's lack of political acumen. No matter how honorable and honest they may be, they cannot survive if they do not comprehend the realities of the world they live in. There was a reason Ned Stark took his family back to their lands and stayed out of the Lannister business. Catelyn maybe should have known better but she relied too much on the old Frey's sentiment for her. The Freys were beyond enraged at the chance of linking their family to the throne being promised then taken away, obviously, lol. They are barbaric and crude; yet lack true cunning and foresight so it will be interesting to see how they are used and thrown aside as the other more savvy players converge on the Iron throne.
They will pay Oh how the will pay. The North Remembers!
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I think most of their decisions in this adaptation have been spot on. They keep the main plot points, the rails are going to the same destiny as in the books, but the scenery along the way is a little bit different.