Joffrey Was he born curel or was it because of his parents?

[Firstname]

Robin wrote: "Mental illness can absolutely be biologically hereditary."

Yes, the propensity can be inherited, but not every child of mentally ill parents is mentally ill. It's not an on-off gene/epigene complex. It's a complex web that can include genetics, infections, brain injuries/defects, substance abuse, prenatal damage, etc.

Again, I think we're overstating incest as a causatory agent due to our learned cultural revulsion re: same. Hawaians married brother to sister for generations but due to various other cultural practices, trying to determine the rate of birth defects from anecdotal accounts is difficult.

Europe's ruling family(ies) have several strains of hereditary disease running through them, but they're still ruling. Hemophilia has been mentioned as a "hereditary illness". It is in Victoria's descendants, however that particular malady seemed to have originated via a de novo mutation in her germ plasm, specifically.

"Although an individual's haemophilia can usually be traced in the ancestry, in about 30% of cases there is no family history of the disorder and the condition is speculated to be the result of spontaneous mutation in an ancestor."

[Brian]

Wow, I won't even comment here because the lack of knowledge regarding both genetics and psychology in this thread will mean that any knowledge-based post will be shot down.

Suffice it to say that referencing other characters and situations in the book are not "proof" for either the nuture or nature side of the argument. Genetics and psychology are not that simple.

[Firstname]

Brian wrote: "Suffice it to say that referencing other characters and situations in the book are not "proof" for either the nuture or nature side of the argument. Genetics and psychology are not that simple. "

Thank you. Although this does highlight the execrable state of U.S. science education. From the level of discussion, I'm assuming many of the posters are at or below the 12th grade science curriculum, so are running mostly on social/behavioral commentary for their understanding.

[Firstname]

Mia wrote: "Blaming the incest and Cersei is kind of lazy. "

This too.

[Robin]

Firstname wrote: "Yes, the propensity can be inherited, but not every child of mentally ill parents is mentally ill."

I never said otherwise.

[Eva]

He's a sociopath...which probably has both genetic and environmental components; his mom is a great source of both. To the person who commented that if he were a sociopath he would take care to look less cruel in public--why? He's an absolute monarch. Sociopaths in our daily lives hide it because that's a survival strategy and gets them what they want. Joffrey doesn't need to. Kind of like Kim Jong Il. George Bush, on the other hand, knew he had to look compassionate on the surface, and did a little better at hiding his complete lack of remorse or concern than, say, Mitt Romney.

[Firstname]

Robin wrote: "Firstname wrote: "Yes, the propensity can be inherited, but not every child of mentally ill parents is mentally ill."

I never said otherwise."

The way you phrased made it seem very much what you were saying. Given how many people have posted to "correct" impressions they got from the way you said things, you might want to think a little more about how you say what you say.

[Robin]

All of about two people including you... I think I can rest easy lol

[Firstname]

Robin wrote: "All of about two people including you... I think I can rest easy lol"

Far be it from me to expect good writing out of people, as I don't teach college anymore.

[Robin]

If you're just going to resort to snobbery I think this conversation is over,

[Firstname]

Robin wrote: "If you're just going to resort to snobbery I think this conversation is over,"

then stop replying ;^D

[Robin]

Sorry, can't see your reply because I've already blocked you ;)

[Firstname]

Robin wrote: "Sorry, can't see your reply because I've already blocked you ;)"

Good.

[Michael]

Absolute power corrupts absolutely?

[P.T.]

*SPOILERS* One only has to look at how Cersei's attitude to Tommen changes once Joffrey is dead and Tommen becomes the new king. Although admittedly by then she has gone completely crazy.

I like it how GRRM always shows how the characters became the the way they were, even Joffrey and Cersei.

[Ciara]

I don't think being the product of incest made him cruel as such i.e. we can't say all children of incest will be cruel. He may have been born cruel if he is a sociopath or a psychopath, but I am not qualified to make that assessment. If he is not a sociopath or a psychopath, then he is just a product of his environment (as well all are) which is likely to be a combination of his mother pandered to him, his father ignored him, he had too much power, and no one ever told him no.

But there may also be a reasonable chance he is a sociopath or psychopath. Where are all the psychologists watching Game of Thrones? LOL

[Mitali]

One definition of 'psychopath' is a person who is incapable of feeling empathy for other people, and has complete disregard for other people's lives. By that definition, Joffrey fits the bill perfectly. He cares about absolutely no one - not even his mother, who dotes on him. And he enjoys tormenting others just because he can.

A tendency towards psychopathy is thought to be inherited, though obviously the environment plays a role too in actually causing the tendencies to come to the surface. I don't know whether or not incest affects the tendency, though.

[Sara]

Robin wrote: "Mitali wrote: "I think you're giving far too much importance to the incest. Yes, it is scientifically proven that incest has negative effects on the offspring, but it's nowehere as extreme as most ..."

Yes, people debate over the risks of first cousins reproducing and people argue that first cousins aren't as closely related as people think since you share about 12.5% identical DNA with first cousins (Assuming you aren't double cousin (4 grandparents in common) or one and a half cousins (3 grandparents in common) or your parents aren't identical twins in which case the identical DNA would be more) which would translate to 6.25% extra on the 50% identical DNA your children share as siblings. But as you rightly pointed out, Joffrey's parents are siblings. The line may blurs around cousins and second cousins, but sibling incest and parent-child incest are the prime examples of incest. As far as risks of incest go, these are of the highest risk. Joffrey only has two biological grandparents, so even one generation of sibling incest greatly narrows the gene pool. Take multi-generational incest like Crastor, where you have him fathering his own grandchildren and great-grandchildren and this is a significant change in the gene pool. If there is a genetic illness in your family, and your procreative with other people who have the same increased genetic risk, you're not really creating much chance for your descendants in escaping the genetic illness. Of course, there is THEN the debate of how much of somebody's personality can be genetic. Maybe the Lannisters have an inbuilt tendency toward sadism. It may be a combination. Tywin's genes (50% identical as it turns out) plus being raised by Cersei? With three children one of them was bound to turn out screwed up. I think Joffrey probably turned out that way ahead of the other two because Cersei probably had a particularly Bates-like connection to her first born child, plus Robert wasn't exactly complimentary to his heir. The other two kids have less pressure on them and have probably spent more time with Tyrion.