The Gunslinger
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Should I read Dark Tower? Why?
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After reading the first three books in the DT, I had so much hope for a series that would continue to thrill, make you think, and make you squirm. Wizard and Glass changed all that...if you treat it as what it was, a transitional book between the first and second trilogies, it became bearable, but was still deeply disappointing because it (quite literally) didn't advance the trek of the characters that we had come to care about at all.
At some point, as has been said above, it really felt like King changed the complete course of the DT series, and it became a messed-up mash-up of all of his books in his universe. It almost felt like a game, where SK tried to see how many different characters he could shove into the DT series. (Out of all of these, only Father Callahan fit well, in my opinion, and even then only in DT5.)
I think that if you're a King completist, you should go for it and make the full run. Otherwise, I would start, and see how far you make it before you run out of interest. Life's too short to read stuff you don't enjoy.
And so, the troll decides to show its true colors...macgregor wrote: "No, what I'm saying is that your sense of entitlement and childishness is stopping you from seeing that the ending of the Dark Tower works within the logic of the story and that the ending isn't an insult which you can't demonstrate is true. "
So now I'm childish because I don't agree with your reverse-engineering of "logic" that forces that middle finger of an ending to fit? I already explained why the insult interpretation is true. You ignored me in favor of your interpretation.
Bad troll is bad. Go back to your cave.
Susie wrote: "SPOILERS.Matt wrote: "And then there's the ultimate ultimate baddie, the Crimson King himself. When we finally get to him he's nothing but a lunatic who screams and throws Harry Potter bombs at R..."
I definitely agree with everything you've said here. I was also kind of disappointed with the 'final showdown' with the CK, however I agree with the point that you made about the tower, rather than the Crimson King, wast really what the final showdown was all about. I also took on a fair bit of unliking and resentment towards Patrick's character, finding him both irritating in the fact that he didn't deserve to be with Roland in the intimate final stages of his quest. While I didn't mind the whole idea of 'The Artist', I felt that it was a bit of convenience, especially given that Patrick was never drawn like sussanah, Eddie or jake (I.e. the lady of shadows, the prisoner as predicted by Walter).
John wrote: "Wizard and Glass changed all that...if you treat it as what it was, a transitional book between the first and second trilogies, it became bearable, but was still deeply disappointing because it (quite literally) didn't advance the trek of the characters that we had come to care about at all.At some point, as has been said above, it really felt like King changed the complete course of the DT series, and it became a messed-up mash-up of all of his books in his universe."
I have a hypothesis on Wizard and Glass. I think that King wrote the back story between Susan and Roland because he was otherwise stuck. There's a twelve-year gap between book 3 and book 5, the books that actually advance the narrative of Roland's ka-tet; I think King probably knew how it ended with Blaine, but couldn't come up with anything after that... until after he got hit by the van, which becomes a pretty central plot point--that and him not writing the books.
Part of me wonders if he got spooked after being hit by the van (well, we all KNOW he got spooked after getting hit by the van--it shows up in so much of his work afterward) and then pushed it through, thinking he HAD to finish it or he might never finish it. I especially wonder this since he wants to go through and edit the series, possibly editing himself as a character out, per the Neil Gaiman interview.
Bill wrote: "And so, the troll decides to show its true colors..."
By message 48, I effectively won this discussion using your own argument. You used the contract analogy and I merely brought it to its logical conclusion. Regardless of what I think of the ending, I can safely guarantee that you have not demonstrated that the ending is an "insult" or a "middle finger to the reader". You can call me a troll, but at least I know how to articulate my position better than petulantly repeating my assertions over and over.
By message 48, I effectively won this discussion using your own argument. You used the contract analogy and I merely brought it to its logical conclusion. Regardless of what I think of the ending, I can safely guarantee that you have not demonstrated that the ending is an "insult" or a "middle finger to the reader". You can call me a troll, but at least I know how to articulate my position better than petulantly repeating my assertions over and over.
About the Cycle in Storytelling: in the Middle Ages, it was called Interlacing. You've seen the Celtic Knots, the real ones, that have no beginning and no end; they are totally connected all through the knot itself.Malory used this style in Morte D'Artur. All stories contain bits of other stories. In order to understand the whole, you have to read them all. Some of the stories, for a modern audience, have been pulled out of many stories, and re-woven into its own tale. It was not originally written as its own story.
I go on like this because I see The Dark Tower as similar in construction... We hear tales of Roland's youth in many takes; it's not told in a linear manner (except in the comics). And I don't think TDT can be appreciated as well except by reading the entire work.
Call me "completist". I accept the description (or insult) honestly.
There have been works I just could not finish. Not many, I agree. I like to give the writer the benefit of the doubt.
The Dark Tower is an example the "In Medias Res" concept of storytelling, which has been around since before The Iliad and Odyssey. I don't think Wizard and Glass is in any way a departure for the story. It is a necessary part of the overarching storyline that we just hadn't heard until that point.
macgregor wrote: "By message 48, I effectively won this discussion..."
a.) There was no competition. I stated what I felt about the insult ending... you chose to call me out. If there was a competition, it was in your own mind.
b.) It wasn't an argument until you turned it into one.
c.) You're still a troll. I'm done feeding you.
An author deliberately "insulting" his paying audience so that they'll never buy another book makes as much sense as a rock band telling its paying fans to kill themselves ... where's the gain?
Bill wrote: "I stated what I felt about the insult ending... you chose to call me out. "
Stating an opinion like a fact does not make it a fact.
It must be nice to cry out "wolf!" or "troll!" when one is wrong as to deflect attention from the precariousness of one's position.
Stating an opinion like a fact does not make it a fact.
It must be nice to cry out "wolf!" or "troll!" when one is wrong as to deflect attention from the precariousness of one's position.
The first book of the series may have been the "slowest". But it is extremely worth it to read it, along with the others in this series. The Dark Tower series is still the best series I have ever read. Also the first book allows you to develop a deep understanding of the main character.
1. To the OP: Read it. Seriously, I love the first one, but I tell everyone that gives me that "Wait, what?" look that if they don't care for it, they need to just power through until they get to the good stuff (books 3 and 5 are my favourites).2. Bill, I COMPLETELY disagree with your assertion that the ending was insulting and a middle finger to the fans, or even just to you personally. You may not have liked it, but we got an ending, and really - it's the only ending that made sense. Especially if you read the poem following the coda, because that's the true end of the series. (view spoiler) You skip the poem, you miss out on all the nuances and everything that shows us this is the one true RIGHT ending for this series. I'm sorry you hated it, but to say that it's an insult to those of us that have been Constant Readers is kind of an actual insult to those of us that were happy with it.
3. I'd love to see (view spoiler), just because I know how it ends, doesn't mean that things won't change each time.
essjay wrote: "3. I'd love to see [spoiler], just because I know how it ends, doesn't mean that things won't change each time"I agree. (view spoiler) It's one of those stories that I know will never happen, oooh but I still hope it will.
King recently wrote that he'd like a "second crack" at some of the other books (in an interview with Neil Gaiman, no less). Perhaps his second time around will include the horn, exclude "the Writer" and produce a somewhat different ending. I'd read that.
deleted user wrote: "Alright, that answers some questions. Here's another more complicated question. What is it exactly about the ending that disappointed you?That is to say, is that there is nothing in the tower and..."
Easy. The ending doesn't live up to all the buildup. Aside from a very disappointing Crimson King (who screams "eeeeeeeeeee" and throws Harry Potter hand grenades), the Dark Tower has been built up throughout King's works. In "Insomnia", we get a glimpse of the Tower where it supposedly spans different realms. In other works (I don't remember which offhand) we get other views of the Tower. In DT 7, all it is is a rehash of Roland's life. Nothing new, no revelations, no other realms of existence, no sense that the DT is much of anything. Where do the beams fit in? The roses? Oh, it takes Roland back to the beginning of the series, but that's all. If the DT is just a "reboot", then what's so special about it? For those old enough to remember, and who watched the original "Dallas" TV show, it reminded me of the season that was written off as just a dream that Bobby Ewing had. I certainly wouldn't have slogged through 7 novels to get to that ending, had I known about it.
For a destination that takes 7 novels to get to, it's a HUGE letdown. I wish I'd taken King's advice, and just stopped reading. I don't care if the ending "made sense", or was the only possible or "correct" ending. To me, and "in my opinion", it was still the worst ending that I've ever come across.
***This whole thing is a spoiler talking about the ending*** I've read it twice now, and have decided that the roses ARE the other worlds. They are the representation of every other world where the Tower is. Just as there's a rose in New York, there's another one in the field for THAT New York. The beams snapping is represented by the "sickness" we see in the rose in New York at one point, and I believe it's mentioned, as Roland is approaching, that some of the roses are dead - those worlds have fallen.
I am with you in that the Crimson King was a BIG letdown. If King does indeed re-write some of the series, I think a lot of Book 7 could go into Book 6 (or gone altogether - King talked about removing himself from the books), and free up space in this already massive book for a full on confrontation with the Crimson King... which would THEN make the ultimate betrayal of the Tower be all the more wrenching.
BUT - your point is that you personally didn't like the ending - and you are totally entitled to that opinion. I'm simply responding in that, at least to me, the parts you felt had not been resolved, could at least be seen to have been resolved from a certain point of view.
The end.
essjay wrote: "Especially if you read the poem following the coda, because that's the true end of the series. (view spoiler) You skip the poem, you miss out on all the nuances and everything that shows us this is the one true RIGHT ending for this series."
I don't think Browning's poem is meant as the final, redemptive ending to Roland's story, since most critics agree that the last line - "Dauntless I set the slug-horn to my lips/And blew: "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower came."" - is actually Roland going to his death; for Childe Roland (not necessarily DT Roland) reaching the Tower is actually a failure, as that was not his original quest. I think the source poem sheds an interesting light on the DT series, but, as I said before, I don't think it's meant to tie into the series in any simple narrative way.
I don't think Browning's poem is meant as the final, redemptive ending to Roland's story, since most critics agree that the last line - "Dauntless I set the slug-horn to my lips/And blew: "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower came."" - is actually Roland going to his death; for Childe Roland (not necessarily DT Roland) reaching the Tower is actually a failure, as that was not his original quest. I think the source poem sheds an interesting light on the DT series, but, as I said before, I don't think it's meant to tie into the series in any simple narrative way.
I made it half way through Book 3 before deciding there were many other stories I really want to read that may actually hold my interest. I am a King fan but this series was a chore to get in to. Grab a copy of The Talisman, the uncut version of The Stand and The Dark Half instead and enjoy.
Surprised by the dislike for the ending-perhaps it was too intellectual for some.
Sandyboy wrote: "the first one is dull. i read it when it first came out and only finished it as i was a king completist. when part 2 came out it was much better, much more old school barrell along andvent and part..."I thought the first book was a lot of fun. I found the Audio Book of the 3rd book impossible to follow, while listening to it on the long commute to work.
I really enjoyed reading the Dark Towers series. Took along time, had read them as they came out. Just reread the entire series last year.
Kim wrote: "I always hear that the first one has to be tolerated to get on to the better material. Try reading the second book before you give up on the series."Oh man, the first book was my favorite. I love the simple stuff. It really brings me more into the world when I'm forced to imagine it all instead of having it described to me.
The Dark Tower series is one of my favorite reads ever, and the first book is the best of them for me.
I enjoyed the series and consider it to be King's magnum opus. Having said that, I found the books very uneven, even more than the usual King novel. As somebody said in one of the earlier posts, King is a storyteller and you've got to make some allowances as you go along for the ride. I was surprised and initially disappointed in the ending but now, on more mature reflection, have grown to appreciate it as satisfactory and inevitable. I don't like everything King does, but I believe the Dark Tower is, on the whole, excellent.Two small additional points: The audiobooks are consistently excellent and entertaining, in my opinion (though, based upon the posts, not everyone agrees). Try the library, they're expensive.
Second point *spoiler alert*: I consider King's clumsy attempt to insert himself directly into the book to be one of the truly great mistakes in the series, maybe in his entire oeuvre.
Still, a masterwork in my humble opinion.
I became completley hooked on the "dark tower" series from the first sentence of the gun-slinger, and have read all the books(more than once)and am now reading "The wind through the key-hole". I don't have any good reason for telling people to keep reading a book, or not....we don't all have the same tastes, and there is no reason to make yourself try to like something you don't. We're not being graded!! As for the end, i know many people who didn't like it- I thought it was fitting. Everyone died in the series, except Roland, who always excaped, or just didn't accept his own death.....I think he's doomed to keep repeating his life until he gives up his obsession with the tower, and lays down his life.
Jason wrote: "I love Stephen King but I am having a hard time reading the first Dark Tower... perhaps I should get his "updated" version (better writing?)It sounds like it is really worth reading the series but..."
I hated the first book when I read it and decided not to continue reading the series. Then about 6 months later I read it for a second time ( I couldn't tell you why) and it was more enjoyable, but still not that great. I will say that the series is worth it, and you will like the first book much better after you've read the entire saga.
I really love The Dark Tower series, but there are definitely some things did not like at all. Song of Susannah was just a bit too ridiculous. None of the sex demon stuff made sense, and it seemed like King didn't really try all that hard to explain it. And suddenly we learn that Roland's son Mordred is supposed to be his downfall. If this was such a huge plot point, why was it never mentioned before? And throwing Patrick Danville in there to save the day? Rather too convenient for me, especially as he was used to dispose of such an important character. I didn't mind that the CK was insane, but if the rest of Roland's ka-tet was gone, Roland should have been on his own. Patrick had no business being at the end when Eddie, Susannah, Jake and Oy were there from the beginning and then quickly disposed of.
However, I actually loved the idea that Roland is continually re-starting his quest. Ka is a wheel, after all. It gives the reader hope that some day Roland will get it right. If King rewrites the series, I will not hesitate to grab a copy.
SHOULD I KEEP GOING?At what point in a series is it too late to put it down without feeling like you've been cheated? I feel like I nearly got there in finishing The Wastelands. But leave it to a good cliffhanger, or perhaps a cheap one in this case, to leave me feeling like i NEED to pick up the next book - a feeling I don't think I'd have if I had paid the cover price for the hardcover, or even the paperback.
This series is a bit too tonally "friendly" and casual for my liking (I suppose that's S.K. for you), and yet, I do what to know what to these characters who, at least half the time, I don't particularly care about. Like some second tier TV serial, I keep pressing on for no better reason than, "Well, I got this far. Might as well see what happens" (e.g., the Walking Dead), until I finish it or it becomes too unbearable to watch (e.g., the Walking Dead S.3)
(There are probably some diet spoilers in the following paragraphs) But King keeps dangling THE TOWER in front of you and you just want these (highly problematic) characters to get there, to see it for yourself. Susannah is a real hangnail for me - the overly-simplified virgin/whore dichotomy, spiked with a borderline mistrelshow treatment of a midcentury southern black woman. Less offensive is Eddie, the cliche misunderstood wiseguy with a heart of gold who asks all the right questions to keep the plot colored in. And then there's Jake, the precocious innocent and his adorable talking pet (A BillyBumbler? Really??). King has talked about how writing is his JOB, and given that his job at this time as writing to the mass market, it's safe to assume that he's shooting for the middle and blowing it into oblivion with flimsy character tropes and their overly convenient, plot-moving perspectives.
All that said, there are some entertaining, imaginative and memorable moments that make the fantasy of this jaunt tolerable, and sometimes even enjoyable - but it's felt downhill from the first book.
Did I watch 3 seasons of The Walking Dead before throwing my hands up and saying THAT'S ENOUGH! (i.e., gladiator zombie fights in the dystopian refuge, COME ON)? Yes. But even though this is book 3 in the series, we haven't quite gotten to that point yet.
I wish I'd stopped. The Tower was a huge letdown for me....
Kim wrote: "I always hear that the first one has to be tolerated to get on to the better material. Try reading the second book before you give up on the series."I have to agree wit that. I had to start The Gun Slinger twice but after I got thru it, I could not wait for the 2nd and anxious for the remaining. A fantastic journey. Was very excited when Stephen wrote the follow-up. Wind through the Key Hole. It just HAS to be made into a motion picture.
Jason wrote: "I love Stephen King but I am having a hard time reading the first Dark Tower... perhaps I should get his "updated" version (better writing?)
It sounds like it is really worth reading the series but..."
YES
It sounds like it is really worth reading the series but..."
YES
Old thread but I'm going to comment anyway.
The 1st edition of the Dark Tower series was a very difficult read, but move on to the second book in the series and the writing style improves.
Having said this as a reader from the outset, and having started again, I love the changes to the 1st book, newly published in 2002 (if memory serves correctly, though could be anywhere between 2002 & 2006)
Now on the 3rd in the series for the second re-read and I'm looking forward to the last 2 books which I never read first time around because they were either not available or not written.
King has made some errors in his writing history, but to my mind, the Dark Tower series is not one of them.
Sincerely yours,
W.A. Grüppe
The 1st edition of the Dark Tower series was a very difficult read, but move on to the second book in the series and the writing style improves.
Having said this as a reader from the outset, and having started again, I love the changes to the 1st book, newly published in 2002 (if memory serves correctly, though could be anywhere between 2002 & 2006)
Now on the 3rd in the series for the second re-read and I'm looking forward to the last 2 books which I never read first time around because they were either not available or not written.
King has made some errors in his writing history, but to my mind, the Dark Tower series is not one of them.
Sincerely yours,
W.A. Grüppe
W.A wrote: "Old thread but I'm going to comment anyway.The 1st edition of the Dark Tower series was a very difficult read, but move on to the second book in the series and the writing style improves.
Having s..."
Going to love it!~!~!
I just recently finished reading 'The gunslinger', and while it certainly isn't his best work, it is more than acceptable, and now that I'm reading 'The Drawing of the Three', I'm glad that I didn't lose interest in the first book.I say keep going if you're a King reader, it'll pay off later.
At the very least, anyone interested in the genre should read the Gunslinger. It is a classic.
The first book to me was a masterpiece. If your having trouble with it, struggle on because after the Gunslinger, it starts to get very good.
How strange, the first one was actually my favorite, but if you dislike stark minimalism and prefer a more detail saturated atmosphere, I agree with the above advice on reading the second one first to get hooked.
The first book is brilliant. You must keep in mind that he actually took about 10 years to write this book. It was an ON and OFF idea which he kept plodding about and then it finally came in front of him. I read the entire series. And the story is beautiful. A recent second reading of the gunslinger made me want to read the entire series again..
"Ka is a wheel and it keeps on turning."
Thankee Sai King for this beautiful series..
Oh.. do not stop at the first book. You are missing a lot.
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Matt wrote: "And then there's the ultimate ultimate baddie, the Crimson King himself. When we finally get to him he's nothing but a lunatic who screams and throws Harry Potter bombs at Roland! Then he gets destroyed, not by Roland, but by some weirdo we meet just a hundred pages before who has, get this, MAGIC ERASER POWERS!! Give me a break. Compared to this, the Coda is a work of literary genius."
While I do feel your pain on this--I, too, wanted the Crimson King to be made of sterner stuff--I think there is a point to it, too. CK is not the main conflict that Roland has to overcome. He thinks so, we all think so... and then we find out that the Tower is not what we all thought, and not what Roland thought. Eddie called him a Tower junkie, and that was the real problem all along. The real showdown was between Roland and the tower, and boy, he lost big.
That having been said, I kind of hated Patrick Danville's whole role in The Dark Tower... but I guess it wouldn't be fair of me to complain, Roland has almost always easily defeated obstacles in his way with The Guns That Never Miss. It's not like that's anything new in the series.