Faust - Part I ~ Dedication/Prelude On Stage/ Prologue in Heaven

[Silver]

Here you may begin dicussion on the opening part of Faust.

[Silver]

What did you think about this opening to the story, in which it does literally set up the stage for the story to follow. It did give to me a very sort of behind the scenes feel, as if you have a peep behind the curtain, and our overhearing this conversation.

I quite enjoyed the discourse between the Director, Dramatist, and Comedian on hearing each of their own thoughts on what is more important within a story, and how best a story should be told.

Also I noted the bit of the Greek influence here, the invocation of the Muse was something that occurred commonly in the ancient bards and storytellers, it is used by Homer, and Virgil, and Milton also uses the device, and I noticed Goethe also gave the muse a nod here.

The wager made between God and Mephistopheles recalled to me the story of Job, which runs along similar lines. God and the Devil make a deal to test one of God's servants, to prove his goodness, and servitude to God not matter how much the devil might try and tempt him away.

I also liked the way in which God referred to Mephistopheles as being a jester. The devil does very much fit into a trickster like role in many ways, and the trickster figure can be seen as being something of a "fool" also fools are often misnamed as such, for they usually are the ones of which can see the truth that others are blind to. It is in fact their guise of foolery which allows them their insights.

One thing I was not expecting, and it will be interesting to see how it plays out throughout the rest of the story, was the humorous aspect of it. I found these opening scenes had an unexpected light heartedness to them.

[Lily]

Great opening comments. Thx, Silver. I did download part I today (free) and skimmed through to the Prologue in Heaven -- I'll probably have to go back and reread, but I wanted to get a sense of the flavor, which you so aptly have summarized.

[Nemo]

Silver wrote: "I quite enjoyed the discourse between the Director, Dramatist, and Comedian on hearing each of their own thoughts on what is more important within a story, and how best a story should be told."

I also enjoyed the Prelude. Perhaps it reflects Goethe's own idea of the nature and purpose of art and its relation to "the mass".

[Silver]

Nemo wrote: "Silver wrote: "I quite enjoyed the discourse between the Director, Dramatist, and Comedian on hearing each of their own thoughts on what is more important within a story, and how best a story shoul..."

Yes perhaps so, I noticed that you earlier mentioned that you were new to Goethe, and I myself am as well, though I am somewhat familiar with some of his other work, this is my first time actually reading him, and I do not know much about him and his personal life.

I was unsure if there was really even any grounds to my thinking that he may have been directly influenced by the Greeks in his work so I tried to research it, and though I could not find much, there is a book I came across called Goethe and the Greeks.

[Nemo]

Speaking of Greek influence, Faust reminds me of The Bacchae, where the young god Dionysus appeared to King Pentheus in human form and gained possession of him. (Come to think of it, the devil never showed himself to Job, but disappeared after "the wager".)

[Frances, Moderator]

Perhaps I missed this in some of the introductory remarks-was this in fact written to be performed as a play?

Given the history of the world and of people in general, God seems remarkably overconfident in entering into a wager with Mephistopheles.

I am also new to Goethe so thanks for the nudge to give this a read.

[Silver]

Yes it is intended to be both a tragic play, as well as an epic.

Considering God is supposed to be all knowing, perhaps his confidence comes from his knowing already what the outcome of the wager is going to be.

[Nemo]

Frances wrote: "Given the history of the world and of people in general, God sseems remarkably overconfident in entering into a wager with Mephistopheles."

Since God is the author of history and creator of mankind, his "confidence" is two-fold: foreknowledge of future events, and intimate knowledge of human nature and potential, as a gardener who sows the seed and knows what it will grow into.

From Bayard Taylor's translation:

"Though still confused his service unto Me,
I soon shall lead him to a clearer morning.
Sees not the gardener, even while buds his tree,
Both flower and fruit the future years adorning?"

It also appears that Goethe believes the basic goodness of man, which reminds me of St. Augustine's notion of "residual grace".

"A good man, through obscurest aspiration,
Has still an instinct of the one true way."

[Hedi]

Nemo, you mentioned similarities of the information we get from the Prologue to Heaven and Job. Actually, Goethe supposedly mentioned that he was taking the conversation about Job between God and the devil in the company of the angels as a frame for Faust.

BTW, I am reading Faust in German in a very annotated edition. So I might be able to give some detailed background information, but have some issues with following discussions on the English translations. However, I will try to use the English online version now and then for which Madge posted the link.

[Hedi]

I liked the Prelude on Stage very much, as it showed the different interests of the protagonists around the theatre, the director, who Goethe was himself at times, the actor and the poet. Goethe got the idea for this prelude from and old Indian drama called "Sakuntula" by Kalidasa.

[Nemo]

Hedi wrote: "Nemo, you mentioned similarities of the information we get from the Prologue to Heaven and Job. Actually, Goethe supposedly mentioned that he was taking the conversation about Job between God and t..."

An annotated German edition is good, and if you could provide detailed background info, it would be very helpful.

Welcome to the discussion. :) Feel free to ask if you have questions about discussions on the English translations.

[Frances, Moderator]

Do we have a reading schedule for Faust?

[Silver]

I have not posted an official reading schedule, because of the past in which discussions always seem to die out towards the end, I thought maybe people felt discussions were dragging on too long, so I am going to try and be more flexible with this discussion and see how that works out.