Goodreads Librarians Group discussion
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Book & Author Page Issues
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Can someone explain this to me?
Krystal109 wrote: "Not to be rude to other language speakers, but this is an English speaking website.Also, there IS a rule that it should appear as it does on the book cover. This is where she is breaking the rules."
It is, but English books aren't the only ones allowed on the site. When I'm editing or English books I try to follow the rules and convention set for them. When I'm editing Finnish books I follow the Finnish rules.
And if I followed the rule saying it should appear as it does on the book cover, I'd be using all caps most of the time. I don't. I follow the rule telling me to use proper capitalisation, which depends the language I'm dealing with.
This isn't about other language books. She is CHANGING English language books.Sure you can make an argument for her if she wasn't.
Just to clarify all this... she is ONLY changing English language books. There is no argument here for other languages. Therefore, she needs to follow English language books title rules... EVEN IF SHE ISN'T ENGLISH.
In German, nouns are always capitalized as well as names, months, proper names, locations and some other. I realized that this is something English speaking people almost always stumble upon. But if these are changes not done on purpose then I'll just check that. But how come you start editing "Great Expectations" to "Great expectations". - I don't get it.
I would just explain to her that she needs to become aware that what she is doing is incorrect. That she should stop and message rivka to explain herself is she doesn't want to lose her librarian powers.PS. She seems to have stopped for now.
rameau wrote: And if I followed the rule saying it should appear as it does on the book cover, I'd be using all caps most of the time. I don't. I follow the rule telling me to use proper capitalisation, which depends the language I'm dealing with. I amended that post saying that it should appear as it does on the book cover with proper capitalization (not all upper or lower case).
Luisa wrote: "but I'd like to know the rules for capitalization of English titles. "I would bet that there aren't any, whether on Goodreads or anywhere else. When a book is printed the title and the format of the title will be argued over by the author, the editor, the publisher, etc.
That is why English is OK with titles like this (all in lowercase)
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29...
That is also why the only practical answer is to use the format that appears on the book. Irrespective of language, if it is written one way then that is the official Goodreads format and us English speakers will have to get used to it.
Actually, that book SHOULDN'T be like that. It should appear (spelling and any other info like "Sidney Sheldon's ....) how it does on the cover, but with proper capitalization for a title/name.E.E. Cummings is a name and should be capitalized anyways.
At least according to the manual where it says to use proper capitalization.
http://www.goodreads.com/help/show/26...
Krystal109 wrote: "Actually, that book SHOULDN'T be like that. It should appear (spelling and any other info like "Sidney Sheldon's ....) how it does on the cover, but with proper capitalization for a title/name.E...."
The book SHOULD be like that because that is the title of the book. And e.e. cummings used the lowercase version as his, um, logo.
Except that it goes AGAINST the librarian manual.I will leave that alone though. You can debate that all day until rivka pops in.
Krystal109 wrote: "Except that it goes AGAINST the librarian manual."The manual says (my bold):
"Enter in the official title of the book as it is shown on the cover or binding."
If the manual is expected to cover English and OTHER languages then it will probably need to stick to the absolute letter of that sentence.
Krystal109 wrote: "You can debate that all day until rivka pops in."Then we will all run away.
{quiet mode: ON}
Since you omitted the rest:Enter in the official title of the book as it is shown on the cover or binding. Use proper capitalization and punctuation (i.e. do not use all-caps or no-caps). Make sure to check your spelling since improperly spelled titles may make the book harder to find in the Goodreads database.
"1.Enter in the official title of the book as it is shown on the cover or binding. 2.Use proper capitalization and punctuation (i.e. do not use all-caps or no-caps)"
So what do we do if those two sentences contradict each other?
Example: after the quake displays the title in no-caps on the cover.
Then I would ask rivka.Back to the topic at hand though. None of these arguments apply to what this user is doing.
In this case I'd say that proper is what is written on the cover. Just a little example. There is one book in Germany named "Hummeldumm" which is actually not a word. The subtitle says "das Roman" which is gramatically wrong. But that's the name of the book.
The question is, if you went to the publishers website is it written in all lowercase? I highly doubt it.This is still something I think rivka should clarify and should be clarified in the manual, but still doesn't apply to this user.
So, basically, we all agree that conventions vary, depending on location and organization.BUT...the problem, here, is that you have a new librarian, who is not following GR conventions (which could be typing all the titles in backwards...it doesn't matter...we, as librarians, agree to follow GR's formats), and has her messages turned off, so there is no way to reach her. Therein lies the rub.
For the record, my comment regarding language differences was not to imply in any way that this user was behaving correctly. I was just pointing out in rebuttal to "why would anyone ever think to not capitalize a proper noun" is all. ;) Clearly, changing every book you encounter means you have the problem, not the entire database. @.@ I find it hard to fathom anyone rationally thinking otherwise. Plus it puts into question any other changes she is making (to book format, etc), as who knows if she actually has these things and knows the proper ones, when she's doing all this other crazy junk??
I gave up on fixing the publication dates if I couldn't simply revert them. Mostly because I never trust the number 1, especially 1/1 since GR's stupidly will add the 1 if there is no info in that field manually set by a user.
Hello,I am reading this thread with some alarm. US/UK, Chicago Manual of Style notwithstanding, should the titles not appear as the author puts them on his/her cover initially? For instance, my own Egyptian novel is KHAMSIN, The Devil Wind of The Nile. That's the way I wrote it, that's the way I definitely would like it to appear anywhere...I am sure, so will other authors.
While I do have Librarian status, I most certainly would hesitate to slash and burn across the boards without knowing what I am doing (and so far, I don't).
Your messages above show that you are all very lenient, albeit frustrated, I am sure. I agree, a stricter policy to grant Librarian status would make sense.
For instance, I am trying to add my book to any of the Egyptian lists but have not succeeded; will need to ask for help somewhere.
Hope the above issue gets resolved. Thanks for all your concerns and efforts; the authors will appreciated them greatly.
Inge
I think that's good enough for now. We should just wait for rivka to reply. I will continue to check her profile and revert changes, as needed.
Inge H. wrote: For instance, my own Egyptian novel is KHAMSIN, The Devil Wind of The Nile. That's the way I wrote it, that's the way I definitely would like it to appear anywhere...I am sure, so will other authors.The whole title is: KHAMSIN, The Devil Wind of The Nile. This is neither all-caps or no-caps. It wouldn't get changed.
Krystal109That's a relief. Again, I applaud all your efforts above.
Banjomike wrote: "She has screwed the titles for The Lord of the Rings as well and changed the author to J.R.R. Tolkein. What an idiot. I've reverted some."
Actually, Tolkein and Tolkien is a common spelling mistake.
Actually, Tolkein and Tolkien is a common spelling mistake.
Nate wrote: "Actually, Tolkein and Tolkien is a common spelling mistake. "It is. Why she should change the correct version to the wrong version is a bit harder to explain.
Krystal109 wrote: "The question is, if you went to the publishers website is it written in all lowercase? I highly doubt it."I can't find a current edition of "e. e. cummings: a selection of poems" but these cummings titles are on a current publisher site in their "correct", odd, formatting.
"AnOther E.E. Cummings", "XAIPE", "ViVa"
http://books.wwnorton.com/books/detai...
http://books.wwnorton.com/books/detai...
http://books.wwnorton.com/books/detai...
I still say that what is on the front is the book is the best/easiest/correct version.
http://www.goodreads.com/librarian_ma..."Enter in the official title of the book as it is shown on the cover or binding. Use proper capitalization and punctuation (i.e. do not use all-caps or no-caps). Make sure to check your spelling since improperly spelled titles may make the book harder to find in the Goodreads database. "
Doesn't leave much room for interpretation, imho. If the book cover shows, AnOther E.E. Cummings, then that's what our database should show.
I just started at page 17 of her edits and went backwards, fixing up what I could... wow, what a procrastination tool! I think I have now slightly lost my will to live and my eyes are a little bleary. (But I was feeling a little miffed in a patriotic way because a lot of the books she'd changed the titles of were Australian ones.)
If all that was the case, a LOT of books would be all caps. If we don't make books all caps because of that second statement in the manual, then we shouldn't be able to do all no-caps. You can't pick and choose when to follow the rules. This is why I am saying it needs clarification.Also, the other examples of E.E. Cummings are not all or no caps. They are a mixture of both. They would not be changed.
Now, if the book was properly named ANOTHER E.E. CUMMINGS I guarantee someone would still write it down as Another E.E. Cummings. It seems bias to allow all no-caps, but not all-caps.
How many THE LORD OF THE RINGS books are titled The Lord of the Rings?
Krystal109 wrote: "Inge H. wrote: For instance, my own Egyptian novel is KHAMSIN, The Devil Wind of The Nile. That's the way I wrote it, that's the way I definitely would like it to appear anywhere...I am sure, so wi..."I did ask the question previously about certain words in the title e.g. "The Biology of EUGLENA", as shown on the cover and title page. I was instructed in this forum to enter it as "The Biology of Euglena" (like this: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/46... the Librarian Manual, regardless of the author's intent to use the scientific convention of capitalizing names for Genera and species when they cannot be italicized. Rivka did weigh in on that one, and the preference is clearly for using the GR convention for title case.
I prefer to use what is shown on the title page, as the title on the cover is considered part of the cover art, but it is not my preference or decision that counts here. As a "free" user of GR, I really think I can bend my "rules" a bit and bow to the conventions used on GR, whether I agree with them or not.
Edit: I meant to add @Inge: While I agree with you, don't be surprised if your book is edited to conform to the GR convention - it would probably be a librarian just trying to follow the sometimes murky rules - but it won't be me!.
This is my take on the policy:Enter in the official title of the book as it is shown on the cover or binding. I've taken this to refer to the words/spelling on the cover and not the capitalization of the words.
Use proper capitalization and punctuation (i.e. do not use all-caps or no-caps). Once you've taken the words off the cover, apply the appropriate capitalization to the words.
Basing capitalization off the covers seems, to me, a poor idea. Covers (and title pages, for that matter) are stylistic and may be in all caps or no caps to fit the style of the cover.
Obviously, like any policy here there are going to be exceptions. The E.E. Cummings books ViVa and AnOther would be exceptions, IMO.
I agree with you Vicky.So would you say that the all lower case book: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29... should be changed?
The ViVa and AnOther book have certain letters capitalized for a reason/purpose. The all lower case has no purpose.
Krystal109 wrote: "If all that was the case, a LOT of books would be all caps. If we don't make books all caps because of that second statement in the manual, then we shouldn't be able to do all no-caps.Well, the manual actually says we are not supposed to use all no-caps: "Enter in the official title of the book as it is shown on the cover or binding. Use proper capitalization and punctuation (i.e. do not use all-caps or no-caps)." (emphasis added)
I also agree with Vicky on the policy. That's how I'm entering titles, too.
For me, all-caps/no-caps just looks wrong for titles, but that may be the influence of my native German which uses capitalisation for nouns.
Krystal109 wrote: "I agree with you Vicky.So would you say that the all lower case book: http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29... should be changed?
The ViVa and AnOther book have certain letters cap..."
Instinctively, I would say that the policy says "do not use ... no-caps" and change the title to E.E. Cummings: A Selection of Poems.
WorldCat has the title as E.E. Cummings: a selection of poems.
There is this edition on Google Books titled "E.E. Cummings: A Selection of Poems.
Honestly, I'd want to look at the title/copyright page before I made a decision on this book. So I'd leave it alone since I don't have any better information than what's there.
We might end up deciding that the series of edits that started this thread (except for those deleting publication dates & changing author spellings) are, in fact, acceptable.
Emy wrote: "...At the moment I see an honest mistake over this not malicious intent. ..."I don't think it's malicious either (she's noting "minimal capitalization" as if it's a real rule for her) -- but, she's only changing capitalization on some editions and inconsistently. Plus, once you have had to make the change so often, you really should question what is or is not standard and post to this group. Or if there are more than 10 pages of editions all capitalized differently than what you are doing (like her changing "Little Women") -- should raise a question in your mind.
I got the message when made a librarian that I was supposed to take questions to this group. She, unfortunately, is not questioning.
It is a problem if there's no way to contact a librarian to let them know something is wrong.
I like the flag idea to pause someone before they apply a nonstandard change to hundreds of books because they think they are right, are trying to help and get on a roll. I really don't see a librarian flag getting overused or abused. If it was just one or two books, instead of flagging we'd just undo their change and go on. Flag would be for something like this author's ignoring librarian manual's book title rules and replacing with her (or her country's) own minimal-cap-rule.
If powers-that-be message her, they need to remind her also that if she is making a needed correction that other editions need to also be checked.
Sandi wrote: "So just to clarify, since someone further up mentioned first letters and proper nouns. Are we allowed to decapitalize non-nouns? Example: "Lord Of The Rings" to "Lord of the Rings"
Is there a di..."
Book cover capitalization rules in U.S. English (AP, MLA, GPO and Chicago Manual of Style all agree) and goodreads librarian manual; judgment call on bookcovers using ALL CAPS with all style manuals allowing for clarity to lowercase the "small words" (articles, conjunctions, preps, etc.) that don't begin the title. So "A LIFE AS A MAN" could be "A Life as a Man" or "A Life As A Man" but not "a Life as a Man."
If in doubt, check for other edition book covers that will show publisher/author intended capitalization or post here.
On the publication dates -- is she trying to replace with non-Gregorian calendar dates or something? I'm confused because it looks like she is deleting month and date but leaving year on most of them?
No she is just deleting them. I think she doesn't realize that Original Publication info is for all books and she's like... I don't know this books original publication, but this seems very wrong and deleted the "incorrect" info.I'm not sure. It's normally months and days, but leaves the year.
Banjomike wrote: "We might end up deciding that the series of edits that started this thread (except for those deleting publication dates & changing author spellings) are, in fact, acceptable."I don't think her changing a title like "The Life of Brain" to "The life of Brian" is going to change. She is ONLY capitalizing proper names and the first word. She is not lowercasing all caps names.
Banjomike wrote: "We might end up deciding that the series of edits that started this thread (except for those deleting publication dates & changing author spellings) are, in fact, acceptable."Uh...don't you think instead of deciding is acceptable that we should be deciding it needs to be according to what is set out in the librarian manual?
Or are you suggesting a change in the librarian manual?
Not to nitpick, but, if her changes are acceptable and correct -- how many other book titles will need to be changed to reflect this never-before-accepted-by-goodreads "minimal capitalization unless a name" rule?
I'd rather change her hundreds than every other title here at goodreads.
If a non-U.S. English title on bookcover has all but first word in lower case -- hey, that's acceptable because that's exactly how title appears on the book cover.
There does need to be a consistent standard which is why the librarian manual set one.
And I do realize it's a problem because of so many different English speaking country standards; there just needs to be one and goodreads is a U.S. based company so the majority of book titles and other data has been done by U.S. English rules (okay, done or downloaded from data sources, but same result) and as set out in the librarian manual all librarians are asked to read.
Non-English titles -- well, except that I still think they need to match the title on book cover, of course that language's standards should be followed.
I even understand if she is adding a book not in database that she would follow her own standards -- but changing hundreds of books already existing in database one way to match her standards is just wrong. And certainly wrong to make the rest of us have to accept her standard and change hundreds of thousands of other titles (or maybe millions for all I know) that have already been done by goodreads current standards.
Deborah (Debbie Rice) wrote: "Emy wrote: "...At the moment I see an honest mistake over this not malicious intent. ..."I don't think it's malicious either (she's noting "minimal capitalization" as if it's a real rule for her)..."
This is what I was trying to say earlier, thanks to Emy and Deborah for stating it more clearly than I did. I *do* think this is a good time for us to clarify the standard in the GR librarian manual.
It's Monday morning here in AU, so maybe she's at work and won't be able to do much more before Rivka and the GR staff come in. Then perhaps she can have her hand smacked (metaphorically of course) and told to stop messing with titles and Original pub dates. Oh, and read the freaking manual! :)
I did not mean to get worked up over the issue. But, changing Tolkien….*clutches ancient Frodo Lives badge from teenage fan club and rocks back and forth muttering*
Deborah (Debbie Rice) wrote: "I did not mean to get worked up over the issue. But, changing Tolkien….*clutches ancient Frodo Lives badge from teenage fan club and rocks back and forth muttering*"lol, yes, I've definitely picked up on the vibe that messing with the Tolkien record is tantamount to heresy in the temple... ;)
Vicky wrote: "Basing capitalization off the covers seems, to me, a poor idea. Covers (and title pages, for that matter) are stylistic and may be in all caps or no caps to fit the style of the cover. "I totally agree and I think the Manual should be revised to reflect this.
I'm also one of those people who is always driven apeshit by "Lord Of The Rings" and sometimes I go in and edit to "Lord of the Rings".
A bajillion Ingram imports have changed lots of titles (lots of books) from the latter style to the former. Someone at Ingram is dumber Than A Rock.
Lobstergirl wrote: "Vicky wrote: "Basing capitalization off the covers seems, to me, a poor idea. Covers (and title pages, for that matter) are stylistic and may be in all caps or no caps to fit the style of the cover..."Well, the all caps and no caps is not an issue because is handled in librarian manual. Capitalization matched to cover when not all or no caps is how manual puts it.
Without book book in hand to open to colophon which might have actual copyright or Library of Congress or bibliot...whatever entry, what do you suggest we go on? The online Library of Congress (http://catalog.loc.gov/ ) uses the GPO style manual ( http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/search/paged... )—which agrees with goodreads librarian manual on capitalization of titles. And our other online services like Worldcat and Ingrams are not exactly consistent.
Title capitalization in U.S. English, unlike citing and some comma type of issues, one of few points the various recognized style manuals agree on. Associated Press, Chicago Manual of Style, APA, MLA, et. al.
So what other references are being suggested to use as a standard for capitalization?
I know, Worldcat does it the European way. (Well they are called Worldcat after all...)
Yup, and like goodreads, there are some volunteer entries.I say one of three things needs to happen (1) stick to what goodreads librarian manual says is standard (2) suggest something very specific that needs to get changed in manual citing the U.S. English reference/guide/authority used or (3) pick a standard style guide or reference and stick to it.
No use arguing who is right or wrong or changing standards otherwise. Or reinventing the wheel with so much reference already out there. Nothing against other nationals; but, gr is U.S. based and the majority of members realize that will be the predominant language in use.
I am not convinced the massive re-editing that would be needed if gr manual standard got changed would be worth it. From programming standpoint, only ALLCAPS or nocaps or capitalize-every-first-letter is reasonable databse script/change so would be manual editing.
I'm also one of those people who is always driven apeshit by "Lord Of The Rings" and sometimes I go in and edit to "Lord of the Rings".ME TOO. Just looking at your comment is making me twitchy ;)
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The title of this book:
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/97...
has a different capitalization both in World Cat and in the British library catalog.
I'm NOT saying that she is doing rightly, but I'd like to know the rules for capitalization of English titles.