Fifty Shades of Grey
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Am I the only one creeped out by Christian?
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libellule wrote: "I don't understand what you're trying to say in this post. You write:Mochaspresso wrote: No, I don't think it was ok for him to COMER OVER UNANNOUNCED."
Then:
Mochaspresso wrote: I didn't hav..."
I will try to rephrase it, then. While I do think that it is typically bad manners to just come over unannounced, in their case, I was wiling to make an exception because they really did need to discuss some things face to face.
Perhaps you should spell out these signs that I'm missing and we can talk about them one by if necessary. Other than the email and saying no to removing her sneakers, which we have already discussed, I don't know what else you are referring to.
I just told you what rape was, and rather than saying "Oh hey, I didn't realize that's also rape", you went with the assumption that those victims are lying?!? F*** you. I'm done being civil. It's clearly not enough for you just to enjoy the books while at the same time admitting what they contain. Maybe you feel guilty about the possibility of having enjoyed books that contained rape as a romantic element, but that's on you and only you. You don't get to say that some victims of sexual assault aren't victims just because you don't want to believe sexual assault happened in a story you enjoyed. I'm done. You are thoroughly disgusting.
Christina wrote: "Damn you ladies and your rape discussion LOL Makes me feel like I have to reread the books to find out who of you are right about this, and I really don't want to do that, it was painful enough th..."
lol. I honestly don't have a problem with people not liking the book. A lot of people don't and when their reasons are valid and reasonable, it doesn't bother me. What bothered me in this thread was the blatant and rampant misrepresentations and exaggerations and even flat out lies about the books.
You don't have to go back and reread if you really don't want to because you won't find it. It didn't happen in the story. I could add some pacifying disclaimer words like "in my opinion"....but my honest gut feeling is that it definitely didn't happen. No disclaimers or pacifiers necessary. I agree with your assessment of Christian's behavior, btw.
@Christina, I suppose it depends if you know what counts as rape. For example, if you think a person not stopping immediately after the first "no" isn't rape, then I guess you could say there is no rape in book 1. If you think a person not stopping after their partner says "stop" and then not even after "no please", or if you think that a partner worn down changes their mind because their partner ignored their objections, then I guess you could say there is no rape in book 2. If you think a supposedly experienced Master bringing his inexperienced slave into a scene where he has not told her what to expect, continues this scene though she begs and cries, stops after she safewords but doesn't ask if she's okay and instead guilts her for safewording isn't rape, then I guess you could say there is no rape in book 3. Additionally, you could say that any real life victim who experiences any of the above and identifies it as rape is lying, and then lament all the poor innocent rapists - oops! I mean not-rapists - sitting in jail.
Alexandra wrote: "I just told you what rape was, and rather than saying "Oh hey, I didn't realize that's also rape", you went with the assumption that those victims are lying?!? F*** you. I'm done being civil. It's ..."Sweetie, let's be clear you were never truly civil. You also seem to only see what you want in people's words. I actually do get to say that some victims of sexual assault lied about what happened to them because it has happened in the past. I also think that any open, purely analytical and truly objective discourse involving the issue should be able to address that aspect of the issue rather that try to bury it or ignore it. It happened in a recent very high profile case at the university where I did some of my graduate work. Look up "Hofstra University Date Rape"
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_16...
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/...
Another high profile case was the Duke University Lacrosse case. You can look that up too if you want.
There is a legal organization called The Innocence Project that has helped to exonerate men falsely accused in cases of stranger rape with DNA testing.
http://www.innocenceproject.org/Conte...
I don't know about you, but I want to live in a society where the constitution actually means something and people are supposed to be innocent until proven guilty. You can cuss at me all you want. I still stand by my statements. You LIED about what happened in FSOG. Rape is a very serious issue and shame on you for using this book as your grandstanding on a soapbox platform while grossly misrepresenting the book in the process. It is extremely inappropriate for you to scapegoat FSOG to push this agenda. Your lying about the events of a book to further an agenda doesn't help rape victims at all, imo. You are setting things back more than FSOG ever could, imo.
Out of curiosity, what is the purpose of using safewords in a genuine bdsm relationship? Why not just use stop and no? Why is there a need for an additional special word?Imo, part of the problem with picking apart Fifty Shades of Grey like this is that it is a an ongoing story over 3 novels. It's not always best to analyze some things in isolation. Sometimes, to fully understand something that happens, the reader needed to have read the previous chapter or even the previous book.
Alexandra states that Christian ignores stop and no in book 1, but she also didn't mention that Christian and Ana had previously discussed and agreed upon safewords. She also mentions that he doesn't tell her what to expect. Sometimes this is true and sometimes it isn't. FSOG is a ongoing story about 2 very different people trying to find their way and some common ground. Another problem with picking apart individual sex scenes in isolation is that sometimes what does and doesn't happen might actually depend on where the scene falls on the timeline of how their relationship progresses.
This is from book 2.....
“I want to be quite rough with you, Ana. You’ll have to tell me to stop if it’s too much,” he breathes.
“Safeword?” I murmur. “No, no safeword, just tell me to stop, and I’ll stop. Understand?” He kisses me again, nuzzling me. Oh, that feels good. He stands up, his stare intense. “Answer me,” he orders his voice velvet soft.
“Yes, yes, I understand.” I’m puzzled by his insistence.
“You’ve been dropping hints and giving me mixed signals all day, Anastasia,” he says. “You said you were worried I’d lost my edge. I’m not sure what you meant by that, and I don’t know how serious you were, but we are going to find out. I don’t want to go back into the playroom yet, so we can try this now, but if you don’t like it, you must promise to tell me.” A burning intensity born of his anxiety replaces his earlier cockiness. Whoa, please don’t be anxious, Christian. “I’ll tell you. No safeword,” I reiterate to reassure him. “We’re lovers, Anastasia. Lovers don’t need safewords.” He frowns. “Do they?” “I guess not,” I murmur. How do I know? “I promise.” He searches my face for any clue that I might lack the courage of my convictions, and I’m nervous but excited, too. I’m much happier to do this, knowing that he loves me.
James, E L (2011-09-13). Fifty Shades Darker: Book Two of the Fifty Shades Trilogy (p. 242-243). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
The scene where he tortures her with orgasm denial happens in book 3, chapter. To be clear, this sexual encounter is consensual, but it is also extremely problematic for me because they are clearly in the middle of a fight that they haven't actually settled yet and their motivations for having sex are totally screwed. He clearly wants to get even with her and she's a total ninny, imo. She is still mad at him but he looks hot jeans or whatever.
But I'm curious as to what you think she is begging for? Is she begging for him to stop all sexual activity altogether or is she begging him to continue the sex but let her have her orgasm? This is also not the first time that they have engaged in this type of teasing torture/play or whatever you want to call it. Ana does eventually safeword, but Alexandra also says that he tried to make her feel guilty for doing so. I am genuinely asking where exactly does that happen because I can't find that part?
I did find this, though. (I skipped a lot of Ana's lengthy inner monologue which is mixed in between because I really just want to focus on the actual dialogue between them and on Christians actions and what he says. )
“I’m sorry. I’m sorry,” Christian murmurs, his voice raw. He kisses my hair over and over again. “Ana, forgive me, please.”
“I’m sorry,” he says again. “Why did you do that?” My voice is barely audible as I try to process my scrambled thoughts and feelings. He shakes his head sadly and closes his eyes. “I got lost in the moment,” he says unconvincingly. I frown at him, and he sighs. “Ana, orgasm denial is a standard tool in— You never—” He stops.
“I never what?” I ask.
“Do as you’re told. You changed your mind; you didn’t tell me where you were. Ana, I was in New York, powerless and livid. If I’d been in Seattle I’d have brought you home.” “So you are punishing me?” He swallows, then closes his eyes. He doesn’t have to answer, and I know that punishing me was his exact intention. “You have to stop doing this,” I murmur. His brow furrows. “For a start, you only end up feeling shittier about yourself.” He snorts. “That’s true,” he mutters. “I don’t like to see you like this.” “And I don’t like feeling like this. You said on the Fair Lady that you hadn’t married a submissive.” “I know. I know.” His voice is soft and raw. “Well stop treating me like one. I’m sorry I didn’t call you. I won’t be so selfish again. I know you worry about me.”
He gazes at me, scrutinizing me closely, his eyes bleak and anxious. “Okay. Good,” he says eventually. He leans down, but pauses before his lips touch mine, silently asking if it’s allowed. I raise my face to his, and he kisses me tenderly.
“I never promised to obey you, Christian,” I whisper. “I know.” “Deal with it, please. For both our sakes. And I will try to be more considerate of your … controlling tendencies.” He looks lost and vulnerable, completely at sea. “I’ll try,” he murmurs,
James, E L (2012-01-17). Fifty Shades Freed: Book Three of the Fifty Shades Trilogy (p. 195-197). Random House, Inc.. Kindle Edition.
I can't find anything in that chapter that suggests that he is trying to make her feel guilty for safewording. I don't understand where that claim came from.
So, I have been reading some of the historyofbdsm blog that was mentioned earlier in this thread and I will say that it does make for some interesting reading. I can at least respect the motives and clear agenda of this blog, even if I don't necessarily agree with all of it. It doesn't have that juvenile and snarky, tongue in cheek mean tone that I can't stand in other blogs. It's clear that he didn't like the book, but it is also clear that his main intent is to explain, via chapter by chapter analysis, why FSOG isn't an accurate portrayal of a genuine BDSM relationship. (Something that I still contend that most sane and rational FSOG readers probably already knew without the play by play analysis. Sort of like how some people watch football games without the sound because they don't need or want the announcer's play by play.) I also think the all of the FSOG play by play blogs are probably why the book sold as much as it did. The controversy created notoriety and the notoreity created curiousity and the curiosity created sales. So far, I've read up chapter 15 of his analysis of the first book. I do think that he tries to be fair in his criticism in that he doesn't seem to exaggerate the events of the book. He states what's happened in the chapter and then gives his opinions on it. (I did notice that he while he stated what he thought was wrong, he also didn't actually use the word "rape" to describe what happened between Ana and Christian in Ch. 12.)
I also think some of the disconnect between critics and fans comes from semantics and the degrees of intensity in meaning that some words trigger. For example, what many people labeled as "abuse" in FSOG, I called "dysfunctional and unhealthy". Is there really a difference between the two? Some would say no while others might say yes there is. Also, there are women who like "alpha males" or men with dominant Type A personalities in literature and saw certain things that Christian did as merely an extension of that personality trait or as something that was in line with his character. There are women who like that in real life and then there are some who really only like it in literature. I really do think people are reading way more into the popularity of FSOG than there actually is. I genuinely do believe that for most people who enjoyed it, it was nothing more than escapist literature that piqued a bunch of people's interest because of it's notoriety. I also think that FSOG probably helped to revolutionize the publishing industry way more than anything else.
Incredibly creeped out. He fixates on Ana immediately and for no reason that I can fathom. the only thing she really displays at their first meeting is her extreme naivity & inexperience so it appears that is what attracts him, and he then uses that naivity & inexperience to totally take advantage of her and take possession of her. He's obsessive, compulsive, controlling & abusive. And Ana just let's him walk all over her. Ew.
I believe that Christian can be, in fact, pretty creepy. But, as said by Pamela Su, he and Anastasia are perfect for each other. She's so completely wishy washy, spineless, and timid that i believe she needs a controlling man like Christian. If she didn't have him, she'd probably be dead by this point. He's gotten her out of so many situations like he's some kind of modern-day Super Man.I digress.
And not to forget, Christian without Ana would be a train wreck. He craves someone that he can protect. And that's all he's trying to do, is protect his sub and make them see safety in his lifestyle.
No matter how i look at it, i see them as a perfect pair.
Emily wrote: "I was in such conflict with this book that I actually wrote an academic research paper drawing parallels between Christian Grey and the power and control wheel often used to explain the different d..."I would be extremely interested in reading your paper.
I only made it to chapter 7 and that was only because people kept telling me it would get better. I spent the first 5 chapters psycho analyzing the characters. And personally dealing with abuse victims I can't see why women would want to be treated this way.
Jeanette wrote: "I only made it to chapter 7 and that was only because people kept telling me it would get better. I spent the first 5 chapters psycho analyzing the characters. And personally dealing with abuse vi..."Yeah, it doesn't get better. Some people say Christian changes in the third book and gets better, but he's actually the worst in that book. I found the trilogy thoroughly exhausting and infuriating to read.
I have to agree that there are points throughout the novels at which I felt that Christian's possessiveness crossed the line. If I was in a relationship with a man like Christian Grey, I'm sure we'd have just as many - if not more - disagreements as he and Ana have had during the short course of their relationship. There are definitely times when I feel Ana has every right to be irate. Christian - while he loves her deeply - is more afraid of losing her than anything and allows his fear to get the better of him and make him selfish, which causes him to smother Ana almost constantly. It's also obvious that Christian uses sex as a weapon - to change the subject during uncomfortable conversations, to assert his dominance over and ownership of Ana, and as reassurance that Ana still loves him - when communication would make their relationship healthier.
S.L.J. wrote: "In the bedroom he likes to be king.In a war zone he'd be cannon fodder.
He's not creepy, he's pathetic."
exactly my thought! and haha I like you already :D
One thing that makes me mad about people who defend his behavior is that he does all that because he LOVES Ana. Excuse me, but for me that is not love. When you truly love someone you only want what is best for the person, you want to give them joy. I think he was incredibly selfish in his version of love - which, btw, is not true love. I've seen situations which the person was terribly insecure, and still didn't abuse their partner because they really loved them, because they really didn't want to hurt them.
That is not the case with Grey, who just keeps testing Ana's feelings by abusing her.
There is a fine line between love and obsession... guess which side I think Grey stands for?
Gloria wrote: "She never signed the contract!!"There was a verbal agreement. Just because she didn't put pen to paper doesn't mean she was any less in agreement with the stupid contract.
Clare wrote: "Irina wrote: "Moni wrote: "ana is mentally ill talking about inner goddesswhat is an inner goddess?
Sounds like a demonic spirit of whoredom if ya ask me.
Which is what alot of women have nowadays..."
I ended up reading all three hoping they would get better as they went (some book series add multiple layers to stories and characters as time goes on; which is great). Alas, I was very, very wrong.
Nalu.chan wrote: "Seriously, I was completely creeped out by Grey. The sex part was... well, not normal, but there are people who enjoy BDMS and stuff (hey, who am I to judge when someone likes it really spicy). But..."No, you do not. I find stalkers and control freaks anything except attractive. I think EL James was reckless (and a little sick minded) to fill the needs of that poor Cinderella's Complex low self steemed girl with such a Dark Prince. But then, when a person presents that lack of self steem and confidence, she often puts herself as a victim, and there is no victim without a villain.
Erika wrote: "Nima wrote: "Take away the good looks, the money and the giant d**k, and tell me whats left....."I've always wondered, if Christian Grey was not a millionaire but a trucker, fans just love him th..."
Absolutely. They would run to the hills screaming hysterically, just like I would have done if I ever found a billionaire stalking me!
Lala wrote: "You are not alone my friend. I find him beyond creepy and it has nothing to do with his sexual preferences. His stalking of Ana was a major turnoff from the beginning but after reading his "littl..."Don't forget all of the weird references to being child-like/childish/treating Ana like a child. There is no creep factor in there at all! *rolls eyes*
Gayle wrote: "I totally agree with those who say both characters are nuts. Grey and his obsessively controlling personality, and Ana with the devil on one shoulder and the angel on the other - couldn't there be ..."Really, I bought this book as soon as I heard about it, thinking it would be a dark, erotic love story of mutual trust and defying limits...But what did I found? A sick boy, a foolish girl, an obvious plot, endless cliches and a remarkable poor prose. Whenever I hear people praising it, I offer them a copy of some Cara Bristol's or Renee Rose's novels and say, "There. Let me show you some erotic novel well written. If you do not like the plot, at least you can enjoy the style."
Meghan wrote: "Lala wrote: "You are not alone my friend. I find him beyond creepy and it has nothing to do with his sexual preferences. His stalking of Ana was a major turnoff from the beginning but after readi..."You' re so very right! All those "good girl"s are a chilling cold shower turnoff!!!!
Danielle wrote: "Emily wrote: "I was in such conflict with this book that I actually wrote an academic research paper drawing parallels between Christian Grey and the power and control wheel often used to explain t..."Me too! Please share it!
Mochaspresso wrote: "So, I have been reading some of the historyofbdsm blog that was mentioned earlier in this thread and I will say that it does make for some interesting reading. I can at least respect the motives a..."Hi Mochaspresso. I really respect your point of view, even when I do not particularly agree.
Alexandra. Please, have in mind that, in discussions like this, "Is Christian really a rapist/stalker/abusive husband?" no one wins except EL James. Each time we rise a new controversy about the plot or characters another poor girl buys a copy of the trilogy only to feel herself insulted by it (which was my case, LOL)
Stephanie wrote: "It's fine if you were creeped out by him. Those adults who are damaged as children often have difficulties with relationships that often end the relationships. The difference is that this man actu..."Ha! You think so? If you really knew sociopaths, you would understand that they are very good at FAKING empathy.
completely! He has a budding psycopath/ serial killer in him. I bet if ana would have refused him and shown some fucking spine it would unleash the beast inside Mr.Grey. Then the book would be called "Fifty Shades Of Red". I think I'd like that story better than this train-wreck.
I used to have a period of my life when I was czay about him. I've bought almost all the toys from the book. Now I have a collection of this stuff, http://www.vibezadultboutique.co.uk/b... wow it's fun. Now I can't imagine how could my boyfriend endured it
And "alpha male traits" are neither cool nor sexy.
message 182:
by
Cassie 'The Thinker Go Go Go Go' Mis. Roben Goodfellow'\Isabelle Lightwood
(new)
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rated it 1 star
I have to agree, I hadn't thought of it but now that you say something... he would make a really good serial killer. Just thinking on it I can see that being a better book then this. I couldn't even finish the book. I got to like chapter 6 or so and then called it quits seeing as the guy was just too creepy and possessive. I do like reading BDSM every once in a while. Don't get me wrong. It's kind of my guilty pleasure if you will. But this... omg. It was sooo messed up on so many levels!
Cassie 'The Thinker Go Go Go Go' Mis. Roben Goodfellow'\Isabelle Lightwood wrote: "I have to agree, I hadn't thought of it but now that you say something... he would make a really good serial killer. Just thinking on it I can see that being a better book then this. I couldn't eve..."***Spoiler and Trigger Warning***
Agreed.
Be glad you stopped there, because everything gets so much worse by the end of book three.
Even creepier is that scores of women think his behavior is sexy.
I know plenty of "alpha" males, none of whom put trackers on their partners’ phones or control what they eat, where they go, or how they dress.
They don’t restrict their partners’ movements or “punish” them for hanging out with friends.
Certainly, none of them would react to a pregnancy the way Christian does.
Even then, I have a problem with the "alpha" male, as the term seems to be defined as "a man who maintains a patriarchal household/relationship. A man who protects and checks his woman, whether she likes it or not."
I got some serious Sleeping with the Enemy/Enough vibes from this one, and that was when it was just Twilight fanfiction.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WbiT-...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdtS4...
1. There is no evidence what so ever that Chedward and Anabella’s relationship won’t turn into the above in the near future.
2. It bears repeating that scores of women and girls think the behavior linked above is sexy because the palm/fist belongs to a conventionally attractive man.
If you can stand it, try reading Jenny Trout’s recaps of the books. Even then, though, the pure awful that is this book will still burn your soul.
http://jennytrout.com/?page_id=5720
I also recommend her Boss series if you're into BDSM fiction.
Nalu.chan wrote: "Seriously, I was completely creeped out by Grey. The sex part was... well, not normal, but there are people who enjoy BDMS and stuff (hey, who am I to judge when someone likes it really spicy). But..."He was a little too controlling and it weirded me out a bit but the rest. I was all for the rest, all hot and sweaty for the rest in fact.
Carolina wrote: "Erika wrote: "Nima wrote: "Take away the good looks, the money and the giant d**k, and tell me whats left....."I've always wondered, if Christian Grey was not a millionaire but a trucker, fans ju..."
Haha not at all we all know the reason we allow him leeway is that he is good looking and rich.
I read the first part of the book and I was totally creeped out by Christian. And Ana too! I mean, why would she go after him?! Even if he was so hot, he was a psycho!! Is it only me, or I was also kinda grossed out by a lot of the scenes. So yea - no idea of reading the other parts and seriously don't understand the hype!
Lithika wrote: "I read the first part of the book and I was totally creeped out by Christian. And Ana too! I mean, why would she go after him?! Even if he was so hot, he was a psycho!! Is it only me, or I was also..."I was creeped out by the author who wrote the book.
Crystal wrote: "Lithika wrote: "I read the first part of the book and I was totally creeped out by Christian. And Ana too! I mean, why would she go after him?! Even if he was so hot, he was a psycho!! Is it only m..."Why do you think he was a psycho?! I get it, he was intense but psychotic I don't see it.
I don't think Christian was a psycho. I tend to overthink everything, so I got the impression that the author, Ms. James was recollecting her own life experience as a clueless 20-something in a dead-end affair with an S&M obsessed 50-something (Fifty Shades of Gray? get it?). Christian acts like a rich, privileged, gotta-use-it-before-I-lose-it narcissist in the throes of a midlife crisis. The character waddles and quacks like a middle-aged pervert obsessed with controlling a much younger woman, but you know that book would never sell. With a few tweaks, however...
Yes your are (giggle). Only joking.
Well i'm not creeped out by him, at all.But clearly you've never seen any comments around the 50 Shades series or looked anything up before on it. Because duh every single comment ever is similar to this post
Amber wrote: "Well i'm not creeped out by him, at all.But clearly you've never seen any comments around the 50 Shades series or looked anything up before on it. Because duh every single comment ever is similar..."
Well it’s not all about the money, it’s just shallow to like someone for their money. As for the “red room” some people are into that and some are intrigued. Not everyone would run for the hills Ana didn’t. And she certainly didn’t stay for his money
Yeah, it's a typical bad literature thing of "It's fine because he's rich"
No, you are not the only one who creeped out on him. He is too possessive, too much control. Aside from the mentioned "his past" in the book, I think his richness also drives him to be like that. If ever you are going to ask if there is somehow a positive trait of Christian Grey, aside from on his money, well there is one [at least in my perspective]. It is his somehow respect for limitations. Again, SOMEHOW. You can see it in the last part of the book.
Is there any one creepier than Christian Grey? YES, THAT WOULD BE ANASTASIA STEELE. Arrghhhh, I never despite book character as much as her. YES, I HATE HER MORE THAN DOLORES UMBRIDGE. She does not have an 'inner goddess,' but instead a naive gaslighting jealous horny demon.
At first, I kinda forgive her as she is new to the BDSM community. Even, I, myself is yet to experience that, so I sympathize with her innocent reaction on that [SINCE SHE IS A NEWBIE.] But god! Her immaturity on Christian Grey? He deserves better than her [if we are going to compare him and her, Anastasia is way worse]
he definitely was screwed up in the head and creeped me out, that guy needs some serious therapy and I do not understand how ana put up with all of that
"Christian is a total red flag."I said this to a friend #she was a total grey fan. In response she told me that my mind is still immature. I should read only children fiction.
Seriously, I don't know where I offended her but this book gave so many red flag that I can't ignore them.
Christian was super creepy, not only the bedroom scenes were wild his liking towards Anna was very weird too. I mean theirs a gap between liking someone and obsessing over.
Still it's fandom is so big and they even don't wants to listen our point of view.
I am not "freaked out" but I am blown away by the author and how they can write and then produce such a book. I think Christian is a man who has a lot of money, power and has had a bad influence not only by his biological mother, but the foster care system and his foster mom's friend. He is creepy, he is weird, and disturbing. I think his overal prescence and aura around him while he can go from 0-100 freaks me out the most besides the BDMS. It is chilling to watch at the end of the movie there two kids because I can only imagine how they turn out as adults because of their parents. I could also never imagine if the children ever saw or heard them doing certain things.
I get the "spicy sex" appeal, but I totally agree with you about his serious mother issues. Creepy. But what was even worse is that I thought the writing itself was really bad. Didn't enjoy reading it for that reason. Oh well. I guess I'm in the minority on that.
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Makes me feel like I have to reread the books to find out who of you are right about this, and I really don't want to do that, it was painful enough the first time:-)
I only read the books once, and I did a lot of eye rolling and suffered many bouts of laughter during the reading process, so it's entirely possible that I missed it, but I don't remember CG raping AS. He behaved like a manipulating, controlling, condescending asshole plenty of times (all the time), but raping her? Damn, I just don't remember it... And you all speak (write) about it so vehemently and with such conviction, I just don't know what to think... Ugh, must I really revisit that godawful universe again...