forestsprite’s review of Cold Days (The Dresden Files, #14) > Likes and Comments
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Thanks for your comment, I appreciate it. Even moreso after seeing that your own review differed a bit from mine. I like it when opinions can differ and it's okay!
I suppose you can still pin most of Dresden's more untoward instincts in this book as part of the mantle - obviously something has changed, whether it's winter's mantle, his death, the influence of faerie, etc. - as we didn't have this dialogue running through the first thirteen books. I just don't see why it's NECESSARY. We can see that Harry's morality is being chipped away without it being so gratuitous, can't we? I'm hoping this gets ironed out by the next book.
Harry's views towards women have always been kind of problematic, though. I never really noticed it much until the last few books, and only because a (more unfavorable) review I was reading pointed it out. I guess part of this depends on your view of chivalry - is it a lost art and something to be cultivated, or is it sexist and insulting? I'm not quite sure. If a guy holds open a door for me, is it sexist? If he wouldn't have done it if I was a dude, of course it is. But should I be offended? That I don't know. Personally I'll take the open door with a "thank you" rather than badger the door-opener for their old-fashioned views, and I've also let the guy pay when out on a first date. However, neither of these are required. I'm just as likely to be the one opening doors for guys or footing the bill. I'm all about equality.
Anyway, where was I going with this... Right. So throughout the books Harry has this trademark chivalric flair, putting women on pedestals, rescuing ye damsels in distress, and generally not treating women like, uh, people. I thought it was cute in the earlier books, as in this day and age chivalry is, by and large, dead, but as the series has continued it's begun to become problematic and I've had a harder and harder time reconciling my love for Dresden and his treatment of women. This book just takes it over the top. I suppose if Butcher wanted to show Harry's subtle, or not so subtle descent to the dark side, I would have preferred a less constant "hey there's a hot chick I could rape" every thirty pages and instead a "oh man I've been having some really disturbing thoughts about women recently" every fifty, with possibly a bit more detail if needed. I read the books to escape the world for a better, or at least more exciting place, and I want Dresden to be the hero I know he can be. I want to root for him, and I'll grant I had pretty high expectations after the last two books, and this kind of shot them all to hell. In this series the main character is tantamount to your enjoyment of the series - the Dresden novels ARE Harry's voice - and if I start to not like him anymore that might be the end for me.
I get your point about the underdog thing: the logic that if Harry can level up or fight people out of his league, that others can too. But that's what's supposed to differentiate Harry from other people, from other wizards. That's how people identify him, as being that jackass that's always getting himself in hot water. If everyone else can do the same, he's not special anymore. I just want to see him develop a bit, I guess. You'd think dying or having a kid would mature a guy a bit.
Yeah, I haven't reached that point where the flaws in the book are ruining it for me. (I also didn't put as much time into my review as you did; I was being lazy). That's not to say I don't notice the flaws, which is why I thought you made some good points (which is why I commented!) I'm usually very sensitive to plots with violence against women (I've literally thrown books across the room that have handled the subject badly) so you really made me think about this one.
I'm on the side that a man opening a door for a woman is polite, just like it would be polite for a man to open a door for another man, etc. I think it is easy to see sexism in everything (and it is often there--I would absolutely never say it is not, I deal with it everyday at my job), but I don't think most people walk around with sexist intentions. And walking around being indignant and offended at everything isn't a great way to be either.
This series' trademark is that noting is subtle. Nothing Harry does is subtle. Nothing he thinks is subtle. So I suppose that his descent to the dark side--though I think there's a better argument for his "resistance with the temptation of the dark side", given how Butcher beats us over the head with the notion of "choosing" the kind of person you are going to be--was never going to be subtle. But I agree. It was laid on pretty thick even for Harry, and (I think) I said it before, Butcher needs to broaden it out to include dark urges other than sexual ones because it is dangerously close to crossing a line I don't want to see this series cross. If Harry actually rapes a woman---I'm certainly not going to be happy (understatement of the year). Hopefully Butcher pays attention to what he's doing. I thought he did the scene with Harry and Susan really well (I guess the one where she got pregnant?). It was forceful and all about pent up energy and some rage (but not against each other) but didn't cross any lines--at least as far as I remember. So, if there is some sexual interaction in Harry's future, let's hope it takes a similar route. (Also, please, please not with Molly. I'm not a fan of the "being provocative by breaking the teacher-student taboo").
"I just want to see him develop a bit, I guess. You'd think dying or having a kid would mature a guy a bit." Yes. I definitely agree with this. I don't have kids yet. I'm really hoping that when I do, my boyfriend matures a bit. Fingers crossed! :) But seriously, Harry needs to have a moment where he really considers how powerful he's become (view spoiler). I think given that he basically just woke from the dead, I'll give him this last book to warm up to it. But you're right, he needs to have that moment. And related to that is Harry's general treatment of women. Harry's view of women IS problematic and has been throughout the series--but I don't think Butcher has tried to hide that from us. It has always been presented as a flaw. Do I think Butcher has always handled it as well as he could have--no, I think you're right that Harry needs to develop more and that definitely includes developing his flaws.
Actually the more I think about it, the reason I think it is more problematic in this book is because of the way the women act--not necessarily Harry. Harry isn't really the one acting out of character (assuming the effects of the mantle). But I did think Murphy acted strangely in important moments and Molly needs to tighten up her act a bit. If the women would respond to Harry's coddling (if you will) the way they previously had by saying "hey jackass, you don't get to make those decisions/assumptions" then I think it would have countered Harry's character better. (I'm not saying it was their fault, just that it didn't balance out this time).
Oh and if he goes through another book without seeing his daughter--I'm going to be annoyed! I hope Butcher does iron out some of these issues because I'd hate to see this series go down the drain. It's definitely getting into that range where it could go either way.
I'm curious, what do you think of the Outsiders plot development?
I don't think Butcher would ever have Harry actually rape someone - he'd lose too many fans, for one, but it's also such a line that Harry would never, ever cross. That's who he IS. Or was, but I don't think this can change without the series really jumping shark. I mean, I still gave this book three stars - it's certainly not ruined for me yet, but I'll be more weary with the next installment.
I like your point about having other dark urges that don't just border around sex - although macabre, I think that would actually do a lot for evening things out, if it was bad all across the board instead of mostly this one thing.
And I agree about Molly. I'll admit to shipping them a bit in the past, but that's long since sailed. I don't want to see it anymore. He's hurt her too much, and too much has happened for me to respect either of them if that happens. I actually liked the idea of Molly and Ramirez from a few books back, but I might be the only one there. I would like to see her with some semblance of happiness, whether within the context of a relationship or not.
Agreed about the women's behaviour; didn't feel like a lot of them were in character. If Harry's gonna be a skeezebag I need to know someone else other than me doesn't think it's okay. We didn't get that. And I didn't really like how anyone handled (or didn't handle) Harry's return from the dead. Even Andi had a better response to his coming back than some of the more important characters, and that's just wrong. Murphy's was the worst, by far, but Molly's reaction was a let down too. I was expecting a better reunion between Harry and Molly especially in light of (view spoiler) She seemed so run down and everyone was so haggard in Side Jobs while Dresden was "dead", and there's not nearly enough emotional fall-out in this book for me.
Whether Harry sees his daughter or not doesn't really bother me either way. They're strangers, and he gave up on her the moment he (view spoiler). Really, I was more annoyed at Mouse. Harry left him to guard his daughter, and he goes bounding away just like that? Not that Chastity and Michael are anything to sneeze at, but given what Harry's life is like his kid probably needs all the protection she can get.
The Outsiders thing, you mean with the Adversary? (view spoiler)
Thanks for your review, I picked up on a lot of the same things, too - esp the 'nice guy' bit. Like he thinks he's a nice guy or a good guy for not acting on his impulses? No. That just makes him a guy. Really hoping this isn't the direction Harry is going in.
I didn't get the Harry wanting to "rape" women feeling at all. The women were "willing" but Harry felt it wasn't right despite his attraction. Considering this genre is filled with centuries old Vampires and the like having their way with barely legal women, I think Harry seems quite entitled to having his thoughts. Besides it would have ruined the book if the effects of the Winter Knight Mantle were toned down. Everyone has "bad" thoughts. It is whether you act on it that counts, whether it be resisting the temptation to buy something or doing something immoral.
I did think the Harry-Murphy thing was a bit odd, I liked the possibility of that pairing in the begining of the series but their time has long passed. I think Molly would be a much better match long term (both being wizards with centuries long life span etc.) and the stupid training-bra tag is irritating considering she is in her 20s.
@forestsprite you say that Harry should be stronger, but the book explains why he isn't as superhuman as we would probably like him to be. Plus he is fighting tougher characters. Old ones like Ace have leveled up and attacked by surprise and with overwhelming numbers. In a way it is the reverse of what Harry usually does as the underdog fighting foes much tougher than himself. Many people have commented at how overly strong the little Fairies seem to be, why should it be surprizing when they are fast, can fly and attack in numbers with what is equivalent of a lethal gun each (nail).
As for Mouse what is the point of Mouse guarding Maggie personally if she is going to be in even more danger if the situation isn't solved. Besides the Carpenter household has their own angelic bodyguard team. I think it was great that Mouse re-joined Harry I hope it is a long term thing.
I love Mouse, don't get me wrong, but I found it strange that he would just abandon his post protecting Dresden's kid. I mean yeah, the Carpenters have shown themselves pretty capable throughout the series, but they've also had times where they've been overwhelmed and I thought Mouse would be more... loyal than that, somehow.
About the rape thing, here's a block-quote that I grabbed quickly, there might be better examples in there:
"And some other part of me abruptly filled my mind with a violent and explicit image—my fist tangled in Lily’s hair, that soft gentle mouth under mine, her body writhing beneath my weight as I took her to the ground. It wasn’t an idle thought, and it wasn’t a daydream, and it wasn’t a fantasy. It was a blueprint. If Lily was immortal, I couldn’t kill her. That didn’t mean I couldn’t take her."
Is rapey. There are other moments like that. But even having women "willingy" offer themselves to Dresden just put a bad taste in my mouth because of how it's been done, and none more so than Molly. Again, if things had been different they would have been my go-to pairing as well, but that ship has long since sailed.
Mouse was originally ordered by Harry to look after Maggie. His loyalty is to Harry not Maggie. Besides it is obvious he wasn't essential to Maggie's safety because he was left behind at the house while Maggie was out.
As for the rapey stuff I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Even if Harry had those thoughts about Lily, they are just warped wishful thoughts as we know that the Summer Lady could easily incinerate Dresden with the flick of a finger if he attempted that against her wishes. Let anyone who has never had a lewd thought about an attractive person who they know is impossible to have cast the first stone.
I get the feeling you really have a beef about the Dresden Molly pairing which I don't share. His main "sin" against Molly is not reciprocating her affections in the same way, yet. He is putting up a mental block due to his old fashioned ideas and his relationship with Molly's parents. I admire how Molly has remained steadfast in her affections, proving it isn't just a passing crush. I think as time passes and the age effect shrinks that pairing becomes more inevitable, and I think there are hints of that. If you think about it, she is the only woman who has loved him throughout the series. What I think is weirder is the forced pairing with Murphy. Unless she ends up not aging, and the only way I can see that happening is if she is turned into a Vampire, that pairing is doomed to be a short fling and rather icky long term.
OMG yes, he can't find any other way to describe her being young than "training bra"? I know he's the WK now, but it's not the first time Butcher describes Molly this way.
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Thanks for your comment, I appreciate it. Even moreso after seeing that your own review differed a bit from mine. I like it when opinions can differ and it's okay!I suppose you can still pin most of Dresden's more untoward instincts in this book as part of the mantle - obviously something has changed, whether it's winter's mantle, his death, the influence of faerie, etc. - as we didn't have this dialogue running through the first thirteen books. I just don't see why it's NECESSARY. We can see that Harry's morality is being chipped away without it being so gratuitous, can't we? I'm hoping this gets ironed out by the next book.
Harry's views towards women have always been kind of problematic, though. I never really noticed it much until the last few books, and only because a (more unfavorable) review I was reading pointed it out. I guess part of this depends on your view of chivalry - is it a lost art and something to be cultivated, or is it sexist and insulting? I'm not quite sure. If a guy holds open a door for me, is it sexist? If he wouldn't have done it if I was a dude, of course it is. But should I be offended? That I don't know. Personally I'll take the open door with a "thank you" rather than badger the door-opener for their old-fashioned views, and I've also let the guy pay when out on a first date. However, neither of these are required. I'm just as likely to be the one opening doors for guys or footing the bill. I'm all about equality.
Anyway, where was I going with this... Right. So throughout the books Harry has this trademark chivalric flair, putting women on pedestals, rescuing ye damsels in distress, and generally not treating women like, uh, people. I thought it was cute in the earlier books, as in this day and age chivalry is, by and large, dead, but as the series has continued it's begun to become problematic and I've had a harder and harder time reconciling my love for Dresden and his treatment of women. This book just takes it over the top. I suppose if Butcher wanted to show Harry's subtle, or not so subtle descent to the dark side, I would have preferred a less constant "hey there's a hot chick I could rape" every thirty pages and instead a "oh man I've been having some really disturbing thoughts about women recently" every fifty, with possibly a bit more detail if needed. I read the books to escape the world for a better, or at least more exciting place, and I want Dresden to be the hero I know he can be. I want to root for him, and I'll grant I had pretty high expectations after the last two books, and this kind of shot them all to hell. In this series the main character is tantamount to your enjoyment of the series - the Dresden novels ARE Harry's voice - and if I start to not like him anymore that might be the end for me.
I get your point about the underdog thing: the logic that if Harry can level up or fight people out of his league, that others can too. But that's what's supposed to differentiate Harry from other people, from other wizards. That's how people identify him, as being that jackass that's always getting himself in hot water. If everyone else can do the same, he's not special anymore. I just want to see him develop a bit, I guess. You'd think dying or having a kid would mature a guy a bit.
Yeah, I haven't reached that point where the flaws in the book are ruining it for me. (I also didn't put as much time into my review as you did; I was being lazy). That's not to say I don't notice the flaws, which is why I thought you made some good points (which is why I commented!) I'm usually very sensitive to plots with violence against women (I've literally thrown books across the room that have handled the subject badly) so you really made me think about this one.I'm on the side that a man opening a door for a woman is polite, just like it would be polite for a man to open a door for another man, etc. I think it is easy to see sexism in everything (and it is often there--I would absolutely never say it is not, I deal with it everyday at my job), but I don't think most people walk around with sexist intentions. And walking around being indignant and offended at everything isn't a great way to be either.
This series' trademark is that noting is subtle. Nothing Harry does is subtle. Nothing he thinks is subtle. So I suppose that his descent to the dark side--though I think there's a better argument for his "resistance with the temptation of the dark side", given how Butcher beats us over the head with the notion of "choosing" the kind of person you are going to be--was never going to be subtle. But I agree. It was laid on pretty thick even for Harry, and (I think) I said it before, Butcher needs to broaden it out to include dark urges other than sexual ones because it is dangerously close to crossing a line I don't want to see this series cross. If Harry actually rapes a woman---I'm certainly not going to be happy (understatement of the year). Hopefully Butcher pays attention to what he's doing. I thought he did the scene with Harry and Susan really well (I guess the one where she got pregnant?). It was forceful and all about pent up energy and some rage (but not against each other) but didn't cross any lines--at least as far as I remember. So, if there is some sexual interaction in Harry's future, let's hope it takes a similar route. (Also, please, please not with Molly. I'm not a fan of the "being provocative by breaking the teacher-student taboo").
"I just want to see him develop a bit, I guess. You'd think dying or having a kid would mature a guy a bit." Yes. I definitely agree with this. I don't have kids yet. I'm really hoping that when I do, my boyfriend matures a bit. Fingers crossed! :) But seriously, Harry needs to have a moment where he really considers how powerful he's become (view spoiler). I think given that he basically just woke from the dead, I'll give him this last book to warm up to it. But you're right, he needs to have that moment. And related to that is Harry's general treatment of women. Harry's view of women IS problematic and has been throughout the series--but I don't think Butcher has tried to hide that from us. It has always been presented as a flaw. Do I think Butcher has always handled it as well as he could have--no, I think you're right that Harry needs to develop more and that definitely includes developing his flaws.
Actually the more I think about it, the reason I think it is more problematic in this book is because of the way the women act--not necessarily Harry. Harry isn't really the one acting out of character (assuming the effects of the mantle). But I did think Murphy acted strangely in important moments and Molly needs to tighten up her act a bit. If the women would respond to Harry's coddling (if you will) the way they previously had by saying "hey jackass, you don't get to make those decisions/assumptions" then I think it would have countered Harry's character better. (I'm not saying it was their fault, just that it didn't balance out this time).
Oh and if he goes through another book without seeing his daughter--I'm going to be annoyed! I hope Butcher does iron out some of these issues because I'd hate to see this series go down the drain. It's definitely getting into that range where it could go either way.
I'm curious, what do you think of the Outsiders plot development?
I don't think Butcher would ever have Harry actually rape someone - he'd lose too many fans, for one, but it's also such a line that Harry would never, ever cross. That's who he IS. Or was, but I don't think this can change without the series really jumping shark. I mean, I still gave this book three stars - it's certainly not ruined for me yet, but I'll be more weary with the next installment.I like your point about having other dark urges that don't just border around sex - although macabre, I think that would actually do a lot for evening things out, if it was bad all across the board instead of mostly this one thing.
And I agree about Molly. I'll admit to shipping them a bit in the past, but that's long since sailed. I don't want to see it anymore. He's hurt her too much, and too much has happened for me to respect either of them if that happens. I actually liked the idea of Molly and Ramirez from a few books back, but I might be the only one there. I would like to see her with some semblance of happiness, whether within the context of a relationship or not.
Agreed about the women's behaviour; didn't feel like a lot of them were in character. If Harry's gonna be a skeezebag I need to know someone else other than me doesn't think it's okay. We didn't get that. And I didn't really like how anyone handled (or didn't handle) Harry's return from the dead. Even Andi had a better response to his coming back than some of the more important characters, and that's just wrong. Murphy's was the worst, by far, but Molly's reaction was a let down too. I was expecting a better reunion between Harry and Molly especially in light of (view spoiler) She seemed so run down and everyone was so haggard in Side Jobs while Dresden was "dead", and there's not nearly enough emotional fall-out in this book for me.
Whether Harry sees his daughter or not doesn't really bother me either way. They're strangers, and he gave up on her the moment he (view spoiler). Really, I was more annoyed at Mouse. Harry left him to guard his daughter, and he goes bounding away just like that? Not that Chastity and Michael are anything to sneeze at, but given what Harry's life is like his kid probably needs all the protection she can get.
The Outsiders thing, you mean with the Adversary? (view spoiler)
Thanks for your review, I picked up on a lot of the same things, too - esp the 'nice guy' bit. Like he thinks he's a nice guy or a good guy for not acting on his impulses? No. That just makes him a guy. Really hoping this isn't the direction Harry is going in.
I didn't get the Harry wanting to "rape" women feeling at all. The women were "willing" but Harry felt it wasn't right despite his attraction. Considering this genre is filled with centuries old Vampires and the like having their way with barely legal women, I think Harry seems quite entitled to having his thoughts. Besides it would have ruined the book if the effects of the Winter Knight Mantle were toned down. Everyone has "bad" thoughts. It is whether you act on it that counts, whether it be resisting the temptation to buy something or doing something immoral. I did think the Harry-Murphy thing was a bit odd, I liked the possibility of that pairing in the begining of the series but their time has long passed. I think Molly would be a much better match long term (both being wizards with centuries long life span etc.) and the stupid training-bra tag is irritating considering she is in her 20s.
@forestsprite you say that Harry should be stronger, but the book explains why he isn't as superhuman as we would probably like him to be. Plus he is fighting tougher characters. Old ones like Ace have leveled up and attacked by surprise and with overwhelming numbers. In a way it is the reverse of what Harry usually does as the underdog fighting foes much tougher than himself. Many people have commented at how overly strong the little Fairies seem to be, why should it be surprizing when they are fast, can fly and attack in numbers with what is equivalent of a lethal gun each (nail).
As for Mouse what is the point of Mouse guarding Maggie personally if she is going to be in even more danger if the situation isn't solved. Besides the Carpenter household has their own angelic bodyguard team. I think it was great that Mouse re-joined Harry I hope it is a long term thing.
I love Mouse, don't get me wrong, but I found it strange that he would just abandon his post protecting Dresden's kid. I mean yeah, the Carpenters have shown themselves pretty capable throughout the series, but they've also had times where they've been overwhelmed and I thought Mouse would be more... loyal than that, somehow.About the rape thing, here's a block-quote that I grabbed quickly, there might be better examples in there:
"And some other part of me abruptly filled my mind with a violent and explicit image—my fist tangled in Lily’s hair, that soft gentle mouth under mine, her body writhing beneath my weight as I took her to the ground. It wasn’t an idle thought, and it wasn’t a daydream, and it wasn’t a fantasy. It was a blueprint. If Lily was immortal, I couldn’t kill her. That didn’t mean I couldn’t take her."
Is rapey. There are other moments like that. But even having women "willingy" offer themselves to Dresden just put a bad taste in my mouth because of how it's been done, and none more so than Molly. Again, if things had been different they would have been my go-to pairing as well, but that ship has long since sailed.
Mouse was originally ordered by Harry to look after Maggie. His loyalty is to Harry not Maggie. Besides it is obvious he wasn't essential to Maggie's safety because he was left behind at the house while Maggie was out. As for the rapey stuff I guess we just have to agree to disagree. Even if Harry had those thoughts about Lily, they are just warped wishful thoughts as we know that the Summer Lady could easily incinerate Dresden with the flick of a finger if he attempted that against her wishes. Let anyone who has never had a lewd thought about an attractive person who they know is impossible to have cast the first stone.
I get the feeling you really have a beef about the Dresden Molly pairing which I don't share. His main "sin" against Molly is not reciprocating her affections in the same way, yet. He is putting up a mental block due to his old fashioned ideas and his relationship with Molly's parents. I admire how Molly has remained steadfast in her affections, proving it isn't just a passing crush. I think as time passes and the age effect shrinks that pairing becomes more inevitable, and I think there are hints of that. If you think about it, she is the only woman who has loved him throughout the series. What I think is weirder is the forced pairing with Murphy. Unless she ends up not aging, and the only way I can see that happening is if she is turned into a Vampire, that pairing is doomed to be a short fling and rather icky long term.
OMG yes, he can't find any other way to describe her being young than "training bra"? I know he's the WK now, but it's not the first time Butcher describes Molly this way.
Having said that, I do think you made some good points. One of Dresden's faults through the series (whether intentional or not) is that women are objects (to be saved, mostly). Molly needs to have an epiphanic "why am I still fawning over Dresden" moment because she is perilously close to being way to old to still thinking that way. (view spoiler)[Although the end sure is a game changer in that respect. (hide spoiler)]
I also thought that Murphy acted oddly in this book. Symptom of grief? (Could that explain her non-reaction to seeing Dresdent alive?) Could you chalk up the next non-reaction to Dresden beating the wall in by her face that she somehow understood the pressure and influence from the mantle and knew not to exacerbate the situation? Dresden hasn't had a history of violence toward women (he's instead obsessed with protecting them), so I'm not inclined to read his character that way until he actually starts being violent toward women. I'm more inclined to think that Butcher just needs to think that mantle-messes-with-instinct subplot through a little deeper and broaden its scope a bit.
Also, Harry-as-underdog--this didn't bother me, though I've noticed it's bothered lots of others. If Harry can manage to land a punch on someone more powerful than he is--and the beings he faces in each book are becoming more and more powerful--then it stands to reason that someone less powerful than him will be able to land a punch on him as well. I suppose that is the logic that carries me through that continuing trope. Plus, it's part of Harry's charm--both that he's the underdog and that he gets himself into stupid situations.
Anyway, great review. Lots of good points. :)