Darwin8u’s review of Dark Money: The Hidden History of the Billionaires Behind the Rise of the Radical Right > Likes and Comments
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I've always wondered what motivates people like the Koch brothers, who are approaching the end of their lives, and who are already incredibly wealthy and in possession of more money than they could possibly ever spend, to expend the remainder of their days working to amplify their fortune rather than enjoy it, when doing so doesn't result in any appreciable improvement to their standard of living, and when it is achieved to the detriment of so many other people, not to mention to their own reputation and legacy.
I think it ends up just being baked in. One dies doing what one does because one has always done it. At the $B level there is no way to personally extract value from wealth beyond what someone with say $100M can. Do, you try to buy immortality? Some build museums, some combat poverty, some try to make piece with their imbalance. Others want it all.
I came across a great Greek word recently: Kakistocracy - rule by the worst or least qualified.
The political shifts that seem to be taking place in the UK and US are a little troubling. Brexit was a shock, but electing Trump felt a little like choosing Lord Sauron to rule: one king to fool them all and in the darkness bind them.
Another interesting review, thanks.
Steve wrote: "I came across a great Greek word recently: Kakistocracy - rule by the worst or least qualified.
The political shifts that seem to be taking place in the UK and US are a little troubling. Brexit wa..."
I like Kakistocracy. I use coprophagia all the time to describe friends on the right and the left who only consume their own side's propaganda.
Yup, confirmation bias is a tricky cognitive loop to avoid.
Steve wrote: "Yup, confirmation bias is a tricky cognitive loop to avoid."
Hell, I'd be happy if most just read something longer than a tweet or FB meme.
What, read books? That's an outrageous suggestion.
Apropos of cognitive biases, finance, and politics: did you see that Michael Lewis has just written a book on Kahneman and Tversky?
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3...
Steve wrote: "Apropos of cognitive biases, finance, and politics: did you see that Michael Lewis has just written a book on Kahneman and Tversky?
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3..."
I saw that. Must now buy.
Darwin8u wrote: "I think it ends up just being baked in. One dies doing what one does because one has always done it. At the $B level there is no way to personally extract value from wealth beyond what someone with..."
That's probably true. You'd hope that at some point later in life they would mature in their perspective - in fact many do and turn towards philanthropy or at the very least, apathy - but I suppose some resist this. I wonder if the fact that they are brothers has anything to do with it: there may be a competitiveness underlying their relationship that continues to drive them.
Edward wrote: "Darwin8u wrote: "I think it ends up just being baked in. One dies doing what one does because one has always done it. At the $B level there is no way to personally extract value from wealth beyond ..."
Yes, she addresses that. There are the two brothers you normally think of as being the competitive, political ones. There is the one that flies under the radar and donates to the arts. There is another who is also competitive, but not political really. It is amazing what a hard-ass father and lots of money can create.
"I'm sad because with the election of Donald Trump (even though Trump at one level isn't a part of the Koch network, he might further enable it since he shares many of the same interests as his fellow GOP billionaires) I see this extreme plutocracy getting worse not better."
I, too, am sad, and mad, and frustrated with all the explanations including:
Why so many disadvantaged believe that the next four years will better serve their interests;
How so many could not vote and accept what is coming without making a choice;
Why it is "in the public interest" to have incredible sums spent on election campaigns, effectively prohibiting any who cannot raise such sums from becoming candidates;
When it is "okay" to lie, cheat and misrepresent in furtherance of someone's candidacy.
I have read several of Michael Lewis' books and recently Matt Taibbi's The Divide: American Injustice in the Age of the Wealth Gap
But, none of it helps me find a path to a better world. None of it makes me feel that things will improve in the next generation or the one after that.
The next thing that I will try is to keep it personal and local and devote more help to those who are more vulnerable that I am, whether that vulnerability is economic, social or political....and hope that incrementally we can turn this all in another direction.
Speaking of this book, have you noticed the weirdness going on with Glenn Beck? I'm wondering if he got cut off or what the hell is going on. It's like he's slowly becoming...something resembling ethical? Or something? Is this a trick??
Paquita Maria wrote: "Speaking of this book, have you noticed the weirdness going on with Glenn Beck? I'm wondering if he got cut off or what the hell is going on. It's like he's slowly becoming...something resembling e..."
Yeah, the Glenn Beck thing is weird. I'm not sure if it is a sign he is on meds, or off meds, or hearing voices, or if he has just stopped hearing voices. I'm not sure I'm ready to buy anything he says. He partially owns Trump and this mess we are in. Ugh.
That's what's strange, though, is that he owns partially owning Trump. Like, he takes responsibility for being an insane, conspiracy theory promoting hand of Ailes. This is not to say I will ever like or trust him, but it is an interesting development.
Then again, maybe he just wants to write a bestselling "seeing the light" memoir, though. It really could be that cynical.
Great Review. Rage buying this book now.
I'm there with you Jacob. Post election I'm either reading books to stoke, sooth, or escape.
Good review; I just got this from the library.
Lata wrote: "Good review; I just got this from the library."
Fantastic. I'm excited to see what you think.
Chrisl wrote: "Hope ok to paste my senior senators thoughts.
Of course. Please.
It is really starting to feel a bit like we are living in a Plutocracy given that the founding fathers explicitly want to create a Republic (Roman style) and not a democracy - who do you think would come to dominate it?
Until we have campaign finance reform, we get the democracy we deserve. It is so dismaying that the majority of sinking middle class citizens barely have a voice in the decisions made about them. I'd like to read the book (and enjoyed your review). Better eyes open to what's happening than to stick your head in the sand. Unfortunately the Koch quote you open with appears to be true of our next leader as well.
Jan-Maat wrote: "It is really starting to feel a bit like we are living in a Plutocracy given that the founding fathers explicitly want to create a Republic (Roman style) and not a democracy - who do you think woul..."
I absolutely agree the Founding Fathers intention was to put a bit of distance between citizens and the ruling class (hence Republic vs. direct democracy). However, they were also well-aware and wary of large monied interests (see The Federalist Papers) perverting the government. Looking at what happened to Rome and its republic, perhaps it isn't surprising how ours is ending with a corrupted Senate and inconsequential House and imperial Executive. History might not repeat itself, but it often rhymes.
Christine wrote: "Until we have campaign finance reform, we get the democracy we deserve. It is so dismaying that the majority of sinking middle class citizens barely have a voice in the decisions made about them. I..."
The middle-class gets the rulers it deserves often. If you don't read beyond tweets and make decisions based on memes, well shit... you might get stuck with crappy leadership.
Devin wrote: "I feel this exactly, well summarized."
Thanks.
Darwin8u wrote: "Jan-Maat wrote: "It is really starting to feel a bit like we are living in a Plutocracy given that the founding fathers explicitly want to create a Republic (Roman style) and not a democracy - who ..."
aye but given that money is power, and increasingly the only power worth considering in many modern societies, the surprise is that the wealthy aren't dominating our political life in even more explicit ways
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavio... ... One of my 1960s based beliefs is that excess population will lead to chaos. The social awareness magnification of the computer age, Trump-tweets, urban fantasy, etc ...
Just wait till Robots kill 1/2 the jobs in 25 years.
Good review. I'm almost done with this book and it's interesting. I always wondered how Libertarianism, which was seen as lunacy when I was in college, has become mainstream. I always knew about CATO giving right-wing political hackery the patina of real scholarship. But this book exposed the whole picture. About how a strategic decades-long disinformation campaign has been waged by entitled rich people. Filled with lies and deception.
Fully agree with you. Three days into Trumps executive orders and it's as if he has the Koch handbook as his guide. It's really quite frightening.
I'm 3/4 of the way through, but this is exactly how I feel about this book. From a game theory perspective, American liberties seem to be pretty fucked, but that's no reason to roll over...The transparency that this book brings has inspired me to dig deeper and gain more clarity on the political situation we have inherited. I hope more do the same. Thanks for the review!
Darwin8U wrote: "We are living in a nation that is designed to largely serve the interests of its richest 1%. It isn't evolving. The egg has hatched..."
Yes, the egg has hatched, especially when you see all the gerrymandered states and how a predominance of left liberal votes were struck from relevance due to the way states were cut into voting blocks. Now we have to try & fix it, but it happened on our watch.
Trish wrote: "Now we have to try & fix it, but it happened on our watch."
Yes, the egg has hatched... Now we have to try & fix it, but it happened on our watch."
We voters certainly own the farm and the chickens for sure.
Olivia wrote: "I'm 3/4 of the way through, but this is exactly how I feel about this book. From a game theory perspective, American liberties seem to be pretty fucked, but that's no reason to roll over...The tran..."
I saw you finished. You had me at Game Theory. Glad you liked it.
I am so discouraged! Because I am not a billionaire, or even a multi-millionaire, there isn't much I can do. Even our votes don't matter - thanks to the short sightedness of our Electoral College.
Denise wrote: "I am so discouraged! Because I am not a billionaire, or even a multi-millionaire, there isn't much I can do. Even our votes don't matter - thanks to the short sightedness of our Electoral College."
Yeah, money does breed a certain amount of cynicism. One of the virtues of our system is, over long periods of time, this has shown to be fairly cyclical. There is only so much $ can buy, and anger and organization and passion can make a difference. Overreach often tends to mute the very trumpets of the conquerors. Or that is what I keep telling myself...
Denise wrote: "I am so discouraged! Because I am not a billionaire, or even a multi-millionaire."
Also, full-stop, I'm discouraged I'm not a billionaire either. My wife says I need to work on being more empathetic and listening. So... "I too know what it is like to be discouraged by not having $1,000,000,000+ in my bank."
They're all on the same team. Trump says that he understands middle America, but how could he he's never been one paycheck away from losing his house. It's the same with Hillary Clinton, who's convinced millions of people that she understands them, especially women when how could she ?She's never been eight months pregnant and had her husband walk out her and lose her health insurance at the same time. For those that think that Bernie Sanders (card carrying socialist) is an outsider and on their level how many of you own three mansions and have never had a job that wasn't at the tax payers expense? They're all slightly different shades of the same evil! Trump claims to love the constitution, but I doubt that he's ever read it. Sanders has openly stated that it needs to obliterated and Clinton has been shredding it since the early 90's.
Like you I started this after Trump's election. I can only read it in small bits because I get so angry. This has confirmed much of what I felt was happening but didn't know for sure. I am definitely "following the money" from here on out. Great review.
Sundance wrote: "They're all on the same team. Trump says that he understands middle America, but how could he he's never been one paycheck away from losing his house. It's the same with Hillary Clinton, who's conv..."
I think this obliterates some of the nuance between characters. I would say Trump is enough of an outlier I wouldn't claim he is on the same team. I also feel the GOP has drifted far enough (with Trump and before) that there still exists some fundamental issues between the Dems and GOP. But, I do agree that there is a large amount of corruption that drives this. Primarily due to money involved in politics.
Mary wrote: "Like you I started this after Trump's election. I can only read it in small bits because I get so angry. This has confirmed much of what I felt was happening but didn't know for sure. I am definite..."
Yeah, post election I even need to consume "news" in small doses. It has become almost surreal.
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Ed
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Nov 23, 2016 06:59PM
I've always wondered what motivates people like the Koch brothers, who are approaching the end of their lives, and who are already incredibly wealthy and in possession of more money than they could possibly ever spend, to expend the remainder of their days working to amplify their fortune rather than enjoy it, when doing so doesn't result in any appreciable improvement to their standard of living, and when it is achieved to the detriment of so many other people, not to mention to their own reputation and legacy.
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I think it ends up just being baked in. One dies doing what one does because one has always done it. At the $B level there is no way to personally extract value from wealth beyond what someone with say $100M can. Do, you try to buy immortality? Some build museums, some combat poverty, some try to make piece with their imbalance. Others want it all.
I came across a great Greek word recently: Kakistocracy - rule by the worst or least qualified.The political shifts that seem to be taking place in the UK and US are a little troubling. Brexit was a shock, but electing Trump felt a little like choosing Lord Sauron to rule: one king to fool them all and in the darkness bind them.
Another interesting review, thanks.
Steve wrote: "I came across a great Greek word recently: Kakistocracy - rule by the worst or least qualified.The political shifts that seem to be taking place in the UK and US are a little troubling. Brexit wa..."
I like Kakistocracy. I use coprophagia all the time to describe friends on the right and the left who only consume their own side's propaganda.
Yup, confirmation bias is a tricky cognitive loop to avoid.
Steve wrote: "Yup, confirmation bias is a tricky cognitive loop to avoid."Hell, I'd be happy if most just read something longer than a tweet or FB meme.
What, read books? That's an outrageous suggestion.
Apropos of cognitive biases, finance, and politics: did you see that Michael Lewis has just written a book on Kahneman and Tversky?https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3...
Steve wrote: "Apropos of cognitive biases, finance, and politics: did you see that Michael Lewis has just written a book on Kahneman and Tversky?https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/3..."
I saw that. Must now buy.
Darwin8u wrote: "I think it ends up just being baked in. One dies doing what one does because one has always done it. At the $B level there is no way to personally extract value from wealth beyond what someone with..."That's probably true. You'd hope that at some point later in life they would mature in their perspective - in fact many do and turn towards philanthropy or at the very least, apathy - but I suppose some resist this. I wonder if the fact that they are brothers has anything to do with it: there may be a competitiveness underlying their relationship that continues to drive them.
Edward wrote: "Darwin8u wrote: "I think it ends up just being baked in. One dies doing what one does because one has always done it. At the $B level there is no way to personally extract value from wealth beyond ..."Yes, she addresses that. There are the two brothers you normally think of as being the competitive, political ones. There is the one that flies under the radar and donates to the arts. There is another who is also competitive, but not political really. It is amazing what a hard-ass father and lots of money can create.
"I'm sad because with the election of Donald Trump (even though Trump at one level isn't a part of the Koch network, he might further enable it since he shares many of the same interests as his fellow GOP billionaires) I see this extreme plutocracy getting worse not better."I, too, am sad, and mad, and frustrated with all the explanations including:
Why so many disadvantaged believe that the next four years will better serve their interests;
How so many could not vote and accept what is coming without making a choice;
Why it is "in the public interest" to have incredible sums spent on election campaigns, effectively prohibiting any who cannot raise such sums from becoming candidates;
When it is "okay" to lie, cheat and misrepresent in furtherance of someone's candidacy.
I have read several of Michael Lewis' books and recently Matt Taibbi's The Divide: American Injustice in the Age of the Wealth Gap
But, none of it helps me find a path to a better world. None of it makes me feel that things will improve in the next generation or the one after that.
The next thing that I will try is to keep it personal and local and devote more help to those who are more vulnerable that I am, whether that vulnerability is economic, social or political....and hope that incrementally we can turn this all in another direction.
Speaking of this book, have you noticed the weirdness going on with Glenn Beck? I'm wondering if he got cut off or what the hell is going on. It's like he's slowly becoming...something resembling ethical? Or something? Is this a trick??
Paquita Maria wrote: "Speaking of this book, have you noticed the weirdness going on with Glenn Beck? I'm wondering if he got cut off or what the hell is going on. It's like he's slowly becoming...something resembling e..."Yeah, the Glenn Beck thing is weird. I'm not sure if it is a sign he is on meds, or off meds, or hearing voices, or if he has just stopped hearing voices. I'm not sure I'm ready to buy anything he says. He partially owns Trump and this mess we are in. Ugh.
That's what's strange, though, is that he owns partially owning Trump. Like, he takes responsibility for being an insane, conspiracy theory promoting hand of Ailes. This is not to say I will ever like or trust him, but it is an interesting development.
Then again, maybe he just wants to write a bestselling "seeing the light" memoir, though. It really could be that cynical.
Great Review. Rage buying this book now.
I'm there with you Jacob. Post election I'm either reading books to stoke, sooth, or escape.
Good review; I just got this from the library.
Lata wrote: "Good review; I just got this from the library."Fantastic. I'm excited to see what you think.
Chrisl wrote: "Hope ok to paste my senior senators thoughts.Of course. Please.
It is really starting to feel a bit like we are living in a Plutocracy given that the founding fathers explicitly want to create a Republic (Roman style) and not a democracy - who do you think would come to dominate it?
Until we have campaign finance reform, we get the democracy we deserve. It is so dismaying that the majority of sinking middle class citizens barely have a voice in the decisions made about them. I'd like to read the book (and enjoyed your review). Better eyes open to what's happening than to stick your head in the sand. Unfortunately the Koch quote you open with appears to be true of our next leader as well.
Jan-Maat wrote: "It is really starting to feel a bit like we are living in a Plutocracy given that the founding fathers explicitly want to create a Republic (Roman style) and not a democracy - who do you think woul..."I absolutely agree the Founding Fathers intention was to put a bit of distance between citizens and the ruling class (hence Republic vs. direct democracy). However, they were also well-aware and wary of large monied interests (see The Federalist Papers) perverting the government. Looking at what happened to Rome and its republic, perhaps it isn't surprising how ours is ending with a corrupted Senate and inconsequential House and imperial Executive. History might not repeat itself, but it often rhymes.
Christine wrote: "Until we have campaign finance reform, we get the democracy we deserve. It is so dismaying that the majority of sinking middle class citizens barely have a voice in the decisions made about them. I..."The middle-class gets the rulers it deserves often. If you don't read beyond tweets and make decisions based on memes, well shit... you might get stuck with crappy leadership.
Devin wrote: "I feel this exactly, well summarized."Thanks.
Darwin8u wrote: "Jan-Maat wrote: "It is really starting to feel a bit like we are living in a Plutocracy given that the founding fathers explicitly want to create a Republic (Roman style) and not a democracy - who ..."aye but given that money is power, and increasingly the only power worth considering in many modern societies, the surprise is that the wealthy aren't dominating our political life in even more explicit ways
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavio... ... One of my 1960s based beliefs is that excess population will lead to chaos. The social awareness magnification of the computer age, Trump-tweets, urban fantasy, etc ...
Just wait till Robots kill 1/2 the jobs in 25 years.
Good review. I'm almost done with this book and it's interesting. I always wondered how Libertarianism, which was seen as lunacy when I was in college, has become mainstream. I always knew about CATO giving right-wing political hackery the patina of real scholarship. But this book exposed the whole picture. About how a strategic decades-long disinformation campaign has been waged by entitled rich people. Filled with lies and deception.
Fully agree with you. Three days into Trumps executive orders and it's as if he has the Koch handbook as his guide. It's really quite frightening.
I'm 3/4 of the way through, but this is exactly how I feel about this book. From a game theory perspective, American liberties seem to be pretty fucked, but that's no reason to roll over...The transparency that this book brings has inspired me to dig deeper and gain more clarity on the political situation we have inherited. I hope more do the same. Thanks for the review!
Darwin8U wrote: "We are living in a nation that is designed to largely serve the interests of its richest 1%. It isn't evolving. The egg has hatched..."Yes, the egg has hatched, especially when you see all the gerrymandered states and how a predominance of left liberal votes were struck from relevance due to the way states were cut into voting blocks. Now we have to try & fix it, but it happened on our watch.
Trish wrote: "Now we have to try & fix it, but it happened on our watch."Yes, the egg has hatched... Now we have to try & fix it, but it happened on our watch."
We voters certainly own the farm and the chickens for sure.
Olivia wrote: "I'm 3/4 of the way through, but this is exactly how I feel about this book. From a game theory perspective, American liberties seem to be pretty fucked, but that's no reason to roll over...The tran..."I saw you finished. You had me at Game Theory. Glad you liked it.
I am so discouraged! Because I am not a billionaire, or even a multi-millionaire, there isn't much I can do. Even our votes don't matter - thanks to the short sightedness of our Electoral College.
Denise wrote: "I am so discouraged! Because I am not a billionaire, or even a multi-millionaire, there isn't much I can do. Even our votes don't matter - thanks to the short sightedness of our Electoral College."Yeah, money does breed a certain amount of cynicism. One of the virtues of our system is, over long periods of time, this has shown to be fairly cyclical. There is only so much $ can buy, and anger and organization and passion can make a difference. Overreach often tends to mute the very trumpets of the conquerors. Or that is what I keep telling myself...
Denise wrote: "I am so discouraged! Because I am not a billionaire, or even a multi-millionaire."Also, full-stop, I'm discouraged I'm not a billionaire either. My wife says I need to work on being more empathetic and listening. So... "I too know what it is like to be discouraged by not having $1,000,000,000+ in my bank."
They're all on the same team. Trump says that he understands middle America, but how could he he's never been one paycheck away from losing his house. It's the same with Hillary Clinton, who's convinced millions of people that she understands them, especially women when how could she ?She's never been eight months pregnant and had her husband walk out her and lose her health insurance at the same time. For those that think that Bernie Sanders (card carrying socialist) is an outsider and on their level how many of you own three mansions and have never had a job that wasn't at the tax payers expense? They're all slightly different shades of the same evil! Trump claims to love the constitution, but I doubt that he's ever read it. Sanders has openly stated that it needs to obliterated and Clinton has been shredding it since the early 90's.
Like you I started this after Trump's election. I can only read it in small bits because I get so angry. This has confirmed much of what I felt was happening but didn't know for sure. I am definitely "following the money" from here on out. Great review.
Sundance wrote: "They're all on the same team. Trump says that he understands middle America, but how could he he's never been one paycheck away from losing his house. It's the same with Hillary Clinton, who's conv..."I think this obliterates some of the nuance between characters. I would say Trump is enough of an outlier I wouldn't claim he is on the same team. I also feel the GOP has drifted far enough (with Trump and before) that there still exists some fundamental issues between the Dems and GOP. But, I do agree that there is a large amount of corruption that drives this. Primarily due to money involved in politics.
Mary wrote: "Like you I started this after Trump's election. I can only read it in small bits because I get so angry. This has confirmed much of what I felt was happening but didn't know for sure. I am definite..."Yeah, post election I even need to consume "news" in small doses. It has become almost surreal.
