Poll

Diane, I have felt almost from the early books that Steph should not have gotten involved with Morelli, but hey, like Linda says, it is just a book. However it is a series of books that has generated a very opinionated, loyal and rabid following for the main characters.

Janet may not have anticipated the reactions these characters would get, but I don't think she's been doing the fans justice over the last 4 or 5 books. Twelve Sharp was the last really good book. With believable reactions and emotions from the characters.

Books are reflections and proxies for life. That's why, for me, it's not 'just' a book or series of books that we're discussing, it's a view of life.

Wanda wrote: "Diane, I have felt almost from the early books that Steph should not have gotten involved with Morelli, but hey, like Linda says, it is just a book. However it is a series of books that has genera..."

Wanda, good points. You could be right, not anticipating the passion of her fan base.

Wanda wrote: "Diane, I have felt almost from the early books that Steph should not have gotten involved with Morelli, but hey, like Linda says, it is just a book. However it is a series of books that has genera..."

Wanda, I completely agree, especially that Janet Evanovich has done all her fans, whether Cupcake or Babe, a disservice in these last few books.

And I apologize if my post came across as rude. It's just very frustrating to go on any board that deals with the Morelli/Ranger dynamic and have it, almost every single time, devolve into name-calling and accusations of Joe being a rapist, a misogynistic pig, etc. I never disliked the character of Ranger, but the vehement arguments leave a really bad taste in my mouth--and believe me, I know us Cupcakes can fan the flames, too. Many of the Ranger fans are respectful of opposing views and well-reasoned, but some are not.

Sometimes it makes you think Morelli/Ranger is a bigger ideological divide than the Israelis and the Palestinians. There should probably be a line down the middle of the Internet, this side Cupcakes, this side Babes, LOL.

So I'm going to take my own advice and keep repeating to myself, "It's just a book, it's just a book..." and find less-heated climes.

Linda wrote: "Wanda wrote: "Diane, I have felt almost from the early books that Steph should not have gotten involved with Morelli, but hey, like Linda says, it is just a book. However it is a series of books t..."

Linda, as an Arab, I think the divide between the Israelis and the Palestinians is bigger than the Morelli/Ranger divide, but not by much. : )

Diane wrote: Linda, as an Arab, I think the divide between the Israelis and the Palestinians is bigger than the Morelli/Ranger divide, but not by much. :)"

That actually makes me smile, Diane, because...I'm Jewish! :) Since I live just outside one of the biggest Middle Eastern communities in the U.S. and have a lot of co-workers and friends who are of Chaldean, Syrian, Lebanese, etc. descent, I guess that makes the Morelli/Ranger divide the biggest for me, anyway. I do have one Babe friend. But we've agreed not to discuss it. :)

Linda wrote: "Diane wrote: Linda, as an Arab, I think the divide between the Israelis and the Palestinians is bigger than the Morelli/Ranger divide, but not by much. :)"

That actually makes me smile, Diane, bec..."

Linda do you live in the greater Detroit area? BTW, I'n Syrian Arab, on Mom's side. Dad's side is Italian and German. Such an American melting pot mix.

Like you, I have friends and co-workers from the "other" side of the divide. I find that we get along well.

I do know who's right and who's wrong in the Middle Eastern divide . . . everybody.

Maybe I should take the same stance here.

Diane wrote: "Linda do you live in the greater Detroit area?"

I do.

Linda wrote: "Diane wrote: "Linda do you live in the greater Detroit area?"

I do."

I have relatives in Macomb county.

Diane wrote: "I have relatives in Macomb county."

I lived in Macomb County for 20 years, but we had to move across town for my husband's and my job. Small world!

Linda wrote: "Diane wrote: "I have relatives in Macomb county."

I lived in Macomb County for 20 years, but we had to move across town for my husband's and my job. Small world!"

Yep, it is a small world.

Linda wrote: "Wanda wrote: "Diane, I have felt almost from the early books that Steph should not have gotten involved with Morelli, but hey, like Linda says, it is just a book. However it is a series of books t..."

Linda, I started all this and on my initial comment to "K" I completely left Ranger out of the equation. I was just trying to get her take on Morelli being kind to Steph. I admit I am a total babe fan but I was trying to get insight to her thoughts without using my thoughts of Ranger.

Audra wrote: "How is morelli even winning and why is there a vinnie option?"

Audra, Morelli no longer winning. Ranger is now ahead. I guess someone needed to throw in another man. They should have selected Bob

Linda wrote: "Geeze, K probably wouldn't wade back into this if you paid her. It's like a rabid pack of wolves tearing her apart in here. It's just a book, people!"

Just sharing opinions on a heated topic. True its a book. But we are loyal to our characters.

LOVE RANGER!!

Steph wrote: "LOVE RANGER!!"

thumbs up Steph!!!!!!!!!

Why didn't they have Diesel as the 3rd pick? It's like he's never existed, when the 3rd choice is Vinnie or Rex.

When you look at the characters as JE has written them, you have to choose what you like and don't like. That said, in every book, there's usually something that Joe does that bothers me and makes me wonder why he's still a valid boyfriend. *spoiler* In the latest book, why does Morelli just eat some of the pie when Stephanie is hit with a pie in the face by someone who also threatens her? Why isn't he locking up this deranged person? He didn't want to discuss the other threatening person with Ranger, because he knows Ranger wouldn't put up with anyone threatening Steph, but, apparently, Joe is ok with her life being threatened.

Those are the things I don't understand.

Jeanne wrote: "Why didn't they have Diesel as the 3rd pick? It's like he's never existed, when the 3rd choice is Vinnie or Rex.

When you like at the characters as JE has written them, you have to choose what ..."

Jeanne: consistency with the main characters are sometimes an issue. I guess when the poll was made, Diesel was an in between the numbers character and the person who made the poll didn't consider him. I wonder why Joe is a boyfriend as well. In re reading the series for a Amazon discussion group... Stephanie states she has unfinished business with Morelli. I guess Stephanie feels she missed out on having Morelli as a boyfriend as a teen. Yet,he did take her virginity. At times it seems the author struggles with what the characters should be. When Joe is in trouble, he says I'm Italian, what do you expect. I find it interesting that Morelli and Stephanie never had a friendship prior to entering a sexual relationship. Where as with Ranger she developed a friendship first and then engaged in a sexual relationship. Its hard to tell why Morelli didn't arrest the deranged person, since he is always a cop first and then a boyfriend. I also don't get the open relationship thing between Stephanie and Morelli.

Ranger of course! Morelli has been clear about what he wants in a wife, (although the timeframe seems iffy) and seems to expect Steph to eventually cram herself into that mold, whereas Ranger accepts her as she is.

Hard to have a successful long-term relationship with someone who doesn't even like who you are! (Been there, done that)

Christinas wrote: "Ranger of course! Morelli has been clear about what he wants in a wife, (although the timeframe seems iffy) and seems to expect Steph to eventually cram herself into that mold, whereas Ranger acce..."

Christina: good point. He doesn't seem to be able to accept Stephanie as she is. Is it because he knows she has feelings for Ranger. The only time Stephanie told Morelli she loves him was after seeing Ranger being shot in book 12. Was Stephanie saying I love you to Ranger or Morelli?

Adrienne wrote: "Christinas wrote: "Ranger of course! Morelli has been clear about what he wants in a wife, (although the timeframe seems iffy) and seems to expect Steph to eventually cram herself into that mold, ..."

Steph told Morelli that she loved him while on the way to the hospital after Ranger had been shot. I just wish we knew more about what happened between the time Ranger was admitted to the hospital and when he was discharged and she saw him in his home.

Jeanne wrote: "Adrienne wrote: "Christinas wrote: "Ranger of course! Morelli has been clear about what he wants in a wife, (although the timeframe seems iffy) and seems to expect Steph to eventually cram herself..."

Jeanne: good point. the last statement that was made in book 12 was One Ranger is all you will ever need. I got the impression Stephanie was telling Ranger I love you, believing he would die before she got to tell him. Even Morelli was surprised by her reaction.

Linda wrote: "Geeze, K probably wouldn't wade back into this if you paid her. It's like a rabid pack of wolves tearing her apart in here. It's just a book, people!"

Well, thanks, Linda, I hadn't really thought too much about coming back since in my experience, the Morelli/Ranger comments don't stay 'discussions' too long, if at all, before devolving and real-life has been happily busy and it takes priority. :)

But, since I'm here now, I will say that yes, in the JE books that I read (not primarily fan-fic) Joe has taken care of Stephanie in many ways - emotionally, physically, sexually, mentally. I would say that starts when Joe leaves his hiding spot across from the gym in OFTM in order to keep Ramirez from continuing to attack Stephanie, although a better early example is Joe cleaning up her apartment after Lula is attacked and left there, then fixing her dinner. Having the Joe character understand when Stephanie needs to laugh, be held, have sex, or needs comfort food (which is currency with Stephanie) happens throughtout the books.

J/S tease one another in a good-natured way and seem to understand each other pretty well. I don't see Joe as abusive in any way in the books, although I know a number of fan-fic authors have made him so in their works.

I think it is entirely realistic that a man who loves his girlfriend would want her to be safe in her job - Stephanie has done nothing in quite a while to try to improve her abilities and admits freely that she is over her head. Joe doesn't want Stephanie to 'be a burg housewife', he wants her to get better at her job or find a different one so she stays alive.

K, I agree with everything you say about Joe & Steph. You have said everything that I feel about their relationship & fanfic.

I'll also jump out of this thread. Nice discussions seem to turn ugly very fast since it looks like there is no middle ground.

I agree as well, with Carole and K. The reason these discussions are so hard to engage in is 1) things quickly devalue into nastiness, but even more importantly, these discussions are never about the actual books. A very large contingent of JE's fans are so involved with fan fic, they can't tell the difference anymore, and bring fan fic into these discussions. As you said, K, Joe doesn't want a burg housewife, he wants Steph to be safe, and she isn't in her current job. She sucks at it. Ranger isn't waiting with bated breath for Steph. If she sleeps with him, he'll take it. But there's no undying love. But read fan fic, and the ideas that Joe wants a Burg wife and Ranger is deeply in love are all through it. The books are completely ignored in these discussions. What's the point of discussing the books, when it doesn't seem half the people discussing even know what's IN the books.

Carole wrote: "K, I agree with everything you say about Joe & Steph. You have said everything that I feel about their relationship & fanfic.

I'll also jump out of this thread. Nice discussions seem to turn u..."

Carole: we are not trying to turn ugly. I appreciate K explaining her thoughts on the topic. I may not agree with it but I respect her opinions. Some people are just more passionate in their view points. We have a middle ground in the discussion, it is sharing and talking about the characters and views.

Deb wrote: "I agree as well, with Carole and K. The reason these discussions are so hard to engage in is 1) things quickly devalue into nastiness, but even more importantly, these discussions are never about t..."

Deb: we have been reading the books, having discussions and sharing perspectives and opinions. We may not always agree. but we do respect other people's opinions and thoughts. I do not read fan fiction, I am talking about what I read in Evanovich's books. Some people are more passionate in expressing their views and that isn't bad either.

At one time I thought it could be that way but found out otherwise the hard way. One of the worst things I read was that Joe lovers were racist & must have our own abuse problems. I not fond of "passionate" people ganging up on me or snickering about going Cupcake. If you have ever gone back & read some statements made about our favorite guy you might understand why most Joe fans don't want to get involved in the boards. Its a real shame but unfortunately true. At one time I really enjoyed discussing the books....sad.

Adrienne, with all due respect, it sounds like we aren't reading the same thread either. Respect? I don't think so. And when statements such as "Steph has only ever told Joe she loves him that one time in TS", I wonder about reading the books. She has told him a few times after that, yet I don't see that mentioned. Or that Joe raped Steph. Where'd that come from in the books???? Steph readily admits to being curious and in lust with Joe as a teen. Maybe he didn't handle the after well, but rape? Hardly. I'm sorry, but I have to disagree that the books are what's being discussed here.

Carole wrote: "At one time I thought it could be that way but found out otherwise the hard way. One of the worst things I read was that Joe lovers were racist & must have our own abuse problems. I not fond of ..."

Carole, one thing you'll find in these "discussions", is that Ranger fans cry foul at everything, even when they instigate the nastiness. They never seem to know what we're talking about. Like the kid caught with his hand in the cookie jar and with all innocence asks "who me?" You're right, it's sad, but I have no fun discussing the books anymore.

Carole wrote: "At one time I thought it could be that way but found out otherwise the hard way. One of the worst things I read was that Joe lovers were racist & must have our own abuse problems. I not fond of ..."

Carole: I can understand your unhappiness. You have to always keep in mind with any discussion board, you will not agree with every thing you read. And, people will have their own opinions. I didn't think any one was ganging up on K, I believed they just wanted to hear her opinion on her statement. I am sorry you no longer want to discuss these books. Maybe some other books we can discuss.

Deb wrote: "Adrienne, with all due respect, it sounds like we aren't reading the same thread either. Respect? I don't think so. And when statements such as "Steph has only ever told Joe she loves him that one ..."

Deb: the books are being discussed you just don't care for the direction the topics are going in. We are reading the same books its just you are unwilling to accept other people's perspective and opinions on what they are reading. I have only heard Stephanie say I love you and that was once. When Ranger was shot and laying on her floor. Prior to that she always tried to say it and she would say I like. Depending on what fan you are... Stephanie could have been saying it to Morelli or Ranger. We will never know since Evanovich chose not to continue it into book 13. Stephanie also admits she has unfinished business with Morelli and can not trust in in the earlier books. You seem to think Ranger fans are being nasty... that is your perspective of this topic. Not mine.

This board has not been troublesome YET but I am noticing the ususual suspects from the other boards & know that the hostility & snarkey comments are sure to follow. I don't have the time to defend my views to numerous other people who disagree with me, I don't consider that fun. Its a shame because I'm a real mystery lover too... Konrath,Patterson,Crais,Preston & Childs,Gerriston & so on. Actually, Plum is the stinker of the bunch. Hopefully, I'll see you on some other board.

Carole wrote: "This board has not been troublesome YET but I am noticing the ususual suspects from the other boards & know that the hostility & snarkey comments are sure to follow. I don't have the time to defend..."

Carole: May be on the Konrath one.. I am hearing a lot of talk on that author. Also the Gerriston one. Have a great evening.

This is my first time posting on this board. I've never seen such animated disagreement among people with the same goal...Good Reads!!
Both the characters of Morelli and Ranger have their share of good and bad points. And at any given time in the first dozen or so books, you could give arguments for Steph to choose either one. Where the problem arises is in the latter books.
Janet Evanovich has lost her sense of responsibility towards the characters she lovingly developed. Stephanie hasn't grown in maturity or her job after all this time. And poor Morelli and Ranger are never given a clear playing field as to what is expected of them. One moment Morelli is a sex-dog the next he is worried to death about Steph. Ranger is supposed to be this man of mystery with a secret past and yet we get no help into his past to make judgement.
The fault lies squarely in J.E.'s lap. By not developing Joe and Ranger fully, the reader is left to fill in the blanks. And every reader has their own idea as to how to fill that blank. What we end up with is a war-of-words between Cupcakes and Babes.
What we all agree on is that we dearly love these characters and they deserve better.

Lnben wrote: "This is my first time posting on this board. I've never seen such animated disagreement among people with the same goal...Good Reads!!
Both the characters of Morelli and Ranger have their share of ..."

Very well stated! The Plum series, for me, ended with book 12. JE changed the series to a comedy, and a very lousy one at that. The characters are ruined, the plots are thin and full of gimmicks to keep both Babes and Cupcakes buying the books. Why should Evanovich care about the books or having Stephanie choose between Morelli and Ranger when she continues to make millions of dollars off her readers by keeping this lousy and overused love triangle going.

She will never see another penny of my money.

Lnben wrote: "This is my first time posting on this board. I've never seen such animated disagreement among people with the same goal...Good Reads!!
Both the characters of Morelli and Ranger have their share of ..."

Lnben: very well said. I agree with your assessment.JE has definitely dropped the ball on the characters. And, fuels the debated with her statements made in her goodreads q&a

Adrienne wrote: "Deb wrote: "Adrienne, with all due respect, it sounds like we aren't reading the same thread either. Respect? I don't think so. And when statements such as "Steph has only ever told Joe she loves h..."

Adrienne, this post of yours has proved my point. First of all, I'm pretty sure Steph told Joe she loved him when they were in his car driving to the hospital to see Ranger. So it was pretty clear she was talking to him. Steph told Joe she loved him again in Fourteen, after he bought one of her favorite comfort foods, mac and cheese. These are facts not open to interpretation, yet look how misinformation is presented as fact (she only said it once, it could've been to Ranger when he was nowhere around). Honestly, are we reading the same books and if so, where are these misconceptions coming from?

Anyway, Lnben said it well. JE has dropped the ball and allowed a lot of the conjecture herself with her poorly written characterization of late. But some facts are just facts, and since those aren't being discussed, I'm bowing out once again.

Deb wrote: "Adrienne wrote: "Deb wrote: "Adrienne, with all due respect, it sounds like we aren't reading the same thread either. Respect? I don't think so. And when statements such as "Steph has only ever tol..."

Deb: I realize you just want to argue over this series.I would suggest you re read the books, as I have been doing over the past few weeks. It allows you the ability to see different aspects of the stories that may have been missed the first time they were read. It is not by my perspective, nor am I stating facts. it is how Janet Evanovich wrote it. Especially in the earlier books. You do not have to agree with me and it is your choice to bow out.

I think Ms Evanovich likes it when the Babes and Cupcakes go at each other because then we don't focus on her lack of talent writing the stories.

Evanovich has called the Babes "freaking nuts" and other derogatory names to keep the divide between the Cupcakes and Babes going.

At this point in time there is NO reason for Cupcakes and Babes to be divided. The series is over for all intents and purposes without Stephanie making any decision as of book 12. All that is happening now with book 17 and 18 is that JE is tossing out gimmicks and marketing tricks to keep ALL of us buying her books that never live up to the hype. Any decision made in 18 will be temporary. JE has already let this slip in an interview while promoting 17.

She is using all of us to make millions yet only delivers half-baked, sub-par work.

Katherine wrote: "I think Ms Evanovich likes it when the Babes and Cupcakes go at each other because then we don't focus on her lack of talent writing the stories.

Evanovich has called the Babes "freaking nuts" a..."

Katherine: I agree with you. But, sometimes people just don't understand that. I don't believe Janet Evanovich ever had the talent or passion to write good stories, interesting plots and quirky characters. It shows in books 14 through 18. I included 18 because its an extension of 17. She is making money from readers who are loyal to the characters that she has worn out with her recycle and rehashed verisons. You are correct the series did end with book 12... its ashame some people haven't realized that yet.

I thought 13 was good. Gotta love a bad guy with a blowtorch. The potato gun & gamer story line was just garbage. To me the downward slide started with 14 & don't get me started on the farts of #15 or the crappy mystery of #16. I want a good mystery & it has been lacking is the last 4 books.
A mystery is hard to write. I don't think JE has anymore stories in her or the desire to wrack her brain & do the research involved to write a good mystery.
I signed on to this series to read a cozy mystery that had great reviews. Lets see what we've got...mystery stinks, romance stinks. This we can all agree on. lol
As long as we discuss the books & not the men I'll be glad to join in.

Carole wrote: "I thought 13 was good. Gotta love a bad guy with a blowtorch. The potato gun & gamer story line was just garbage. To me the downward slide started with 14 & don't get me started on the farts of ..."

Book 13 was better than the books that followed. The main characters come off worse in each subsequent book, in my opinion. I hated how JE neutered both men in book 17, It was like they were different characters with the names of Joe and Ranger.

It's become obvious, to me and others that I know, that JE must have had help writing the first 12 books. After she and her manager, Robert Gottlieb, parted ways after book 12 that is when everything started changing. She must have already started book 13 prior to parting ways with Gottlieb. That would explain why 14-17 are so awful because whoever was helping her must have gotten caught up in whatever lead the the parting of ways.

Carole wrote: "I thought 13 was good. Gotta love a bad guy with a blowtorch. The potato gun & gamer story line was just garbage. To me the downward slide started with 14 & don't get me started on the farts of ..."

Carole: yes, book 13 was a good story. Especially the man running around with the blow torch. It was a tad disappointing because it didn't continue the story that came out in book 12. How did Julie make out after her kidnapping and shooting Scoggs. Why did Ranger make the statement One Ranger is all you will need. I thought it was amusing Morelli and Dickie Orr sharing Morelli's house. Ex husband and current boyfriend under the same roof. I liked the way Stephanie and Ranger discovered, Stephanie was walking around with three tracking devices too. As far as book 14,shaking my head at that one. Potatoes. Local druggie guarding a cop's house. And, the farting.. saw no reason for it. I didn't find it funny. Stephanie playing mother to Zook. Couldn't really see that happening. I agree with you 14 did start the downward spiral.

I've read the series several times, and have started reading the series out loud to my husband while we're on trips in the car. We're on book 13 now, and I find it interesting to hear his point of view on the characters. To me, book 14 is the worst, and I can't wait to hear what my husband says about it. Book 12 is my favorite, and I think 13 doesn't answer a lot of questions left at the end of 12. Our number one questions is why hasn't Lula been locked up for the things she's done? Esp. in 17, which I read to him because I didn't have 13 in the car after finishing up 12 (did that make sense?) Personally, while I know that Lula is the comic relief, I don't like her as a partner for Steph. There have been too many times when Lula has caused major problems for Steph - "Ten Big Ones" starts out because Lula is an idiot with her gun. I think both Morelli & Ranger would be happier with Stephanie if she had a better partner and more training. I can see Steph having a better life with either guy if Lula stayed in the office, filing.

Lula may have been written as a comic relief but I agree she has not been served well. I'm not a big fan of complete stereo-typing but the later books are chucked full:Italian,African-American and women. Smart, dynamic women (Terry,Jean Ellen) are threats. Lula should have lots of street smarts to share w/Steph instead of chicken. And not all Italians have violent tempers or connected family members. The characters started out with lots of promise. Then poorly written comedy took over and all was lost.

Lnben wrote: "Lula may have been written as a comic relief but I agree she has not been served well. I'm not a big fan of complete stereo-typing but the later books are chucked full:Italian,African-American and ..."

Lnben: Yes, I agree. The series had a diverse bunch of characters that were interesting. It was one of the reasons the series was so attractive from the onset.Lula had potential to teach Stephanie street smarts but the opportunity lost on janet evanovich. What Janet Evanovich believes to be funny is insulting.

Jeanne wrote: "I've read the series several times, and have started reading the series out loud to my husband while we're on trips in the car. We're on book 13 now, and I find it interesting to hear his point of..."

Jeanne: yes, book 12 showed a new side of Ranger. I always wonder the same thing about Lula. I don't think she makes a good sidekick for Stephanie and is the cause Stephanie gets in over her head. Lula was the one who also set the pot farm house on fire. I also was hoping the story of Ranger would go into book 13 but for some reason Janet Evanovich chose to go a different route. Book 13 isn't bad, just disappointing it didn't continue with Ranger's story. I was surprised in book 12 when Ranger showed jealousy thinking Stephanie would sleep with Morelli while he was staying there. Ranger usually hides his emotions well. I think Evanovich did a dis service by not continuing book 12 into book 13. After that I didn't care for the books. It took a downward spiral of bathroom humor and Lula eating through the stories.

I think love triangles are a tricky thing to include in a novel. They add interest and suspense to a story, but rarely satisfy everyone. In almost every book I've read that includes a love triangle, I've rarely seen one that hasn't tipped in favor of one of the contenders...except this one. To be honest, I have no idea whether Steph'll end up with Morelli or Ranger. I personally like Ranger better, but I'll be happy with whichever character Janet Evanovich decides Steph should end up with.

Janet Evanovich started writing these books in the mid-90's. Her research stopped somewhere in the early 00's. Characters went from pagers to cells. Steph finely got a laptop. But the characters are still stuck back in the 90's. When asked, JE said that time is irrelevant in the Plum series. Rex is the oldest hamster in the world. Other series authors like Lee Childs and Barry Eisler have allowed their characters to evolve and age. This requires research into their new locals and environments. The Berg has changed. It is run down and in some places as violent as "Stark". JE now lives in Fla. far away from where her characters are based. In her mind they are back in a place that no longer exists. Relationship wise, the immature Steph would be poison to both Morelli and Ranger. They have been allowed to grow, albeit slowly. I have little hope that the series will mature. I see it becoming a light comedy, young adult genre. I'm too old for that. I need substance and real romantic sex, not monkeys, hobbits and vordo.