Poll

F**k you Morcan!
:)

Post 351: Like I said, yep, let's change all those things so that they don't happen. There are other options other than killing. (Isolated imprisonment in a new system.)

Post 352: Good point. Do I feel sympathy for a wardrobe? I'll let you know.

Post 354: O.K, I wasn't meaning to confuse any given definition for pacifism, but to make the point that defending is different to killing with intent. I stand by that and I don't think I'm disagreeing with myself. Violence should be avoided at all costs, but is inevitable at present because of the need to defend.

Post 355: Yes, it was an oversimplification - and meant to be. But seriously, if someone airs 'bring back the death penalty' in the UK, the majority think they're some EDL right wing nutter and we're all in shock that such things are said.
And I didn't really mention the U.S, so there was no generalisation.
You make some good points in this post though.

Of course I'm definitely right mate. Always am. (Let's hope the humour isn't overlooked.)

Lisa wrote: "If serial killers view other human beings as mere objects, then why should we not view them in that manner and dispose of them in the same manner they dispose us?"

'Cos I wanna be better than them.

Harry wrote: "Lisa wrote: "If serial killers view other human beings as mere objects, then why should we not view them in that manner and dispose of them in the same manner they dispose us?"

'Cos I wanna be bet..."
...and this is how you would measure being better? I'd think that you'd be better because you didn't brutally murder innocent people who had done nothing wrong or anything to deserve such a fate.

Lisa wrote: "Harry wrote: "Lisa wrote: "If serial killers view other human beings as mere objects, then why should we not view them in that manner and dispose of them in the same manner they dispose us?"

'Cos ..."

Hopefully (fingers crossed!) I'm better in many ways. Twas simply my answer to your question is all.

Harry wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Harry wrote: "Lisa wrote: "If serial killers view other human beings as mere objects, then why should we not view them in that manner and dispose of them in the same manner they dispos..."

Indeed it was, and i was not satisfied with it ;)

Lisa wrote: "Harry wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Harry wrote: "Lisa wrote: "If serial killers view other human beings as mere objects, then why should we not view them in that manner and dispose of them in the same mann..."

Well, I can't help that. :)

(Reminder to self: must do better.)

By the way, if the Illuminati finally track me down and murder me with their supersonic ray guns , I expect Undergrounders to track them down and blow the bastards sky high.

Harry wrote: "
'Cos I wanna be better than them. ..."

but harry if we kill them, and say "you took numerous lives so you have lost the right to live", then this is the ultimate way to feel better than them. And it will feel great, like proving we are morally, ethically, spiritually superior to them. So let's drop the pretense and get the party started already!!!

p.s. I understood your humor in your previous posts about always being right etc, don't worry. And so I reply: F$^# you Whitewolf!

Harry wrote: "You make some good points in this post though. ..."

Told ya.
Lots of future victims created by keeping serial killers alive...especially that life doesn't always mean life...sometimes 88 year old men who have been peaceful in prison for 65 years, kill within hours of being released...
But also consider that psychopathy is said by some experts to be infectious (loose definition of that word). It can spread somehow like a cancer either by them abusing others or else manipulating/influencing others...So I don't agree that we avoid the death penalty for the worst of the worst and it's just a matter of "fixing the present system"...A life sentence will never equal a life sentence in every instance (e.g. a serial killer at say 15 or 16, will eventually be released even as a senior citizen), and with our freedom of speech laws serial killers will always be allowed to give interviews...and speak to other prisoners etc.
You're speaking of an ideal world or some utopian society where judges and prison officials always make perfect decisions to protect innocent citizens, but in reality the present system will remain the same, more or less.

So if you refuse to have a death penalty for extreme psychopaths, you have to allow for more innocent victims to be murdered in future than if there was a death penalty.

Therefore, I'd argue ya gotta make a choice: do you want to have no authorized killings in society and uphold serial killers' rights (including the right to live) and accept the "collateral damage" that will be even more innocent children and adults dying as a result, OR do you decide to finish off the worst of the worst to avoid the many more inevitable victims of these extreme psychopaths in future?

I gotta go with the side of the innocents here...I think society can easily handle the (slight) ethical dilemma of sending these "people" to an early grave just like they did to sooo many innocent citizens...Just think of them as wardrobes or robots, which is probably too kind an analogy as there is more love in your average wardrobe or robot ;)

James Morcan wrote: "Harry wrote: "You make some good points in this post though. ..."

Told ya.
Lots of future victims created by keeping serial killers alive...especially that life doesn't always mean life...sometime..."

Nah, I don't agree with your: 'it's either this or that' approach. Yes, I'm talking from an ideal perspective - I always do. Nowt wrong with that.

For someone who's whole group hinges on changing the system, I don't see why you say we can't change things like freedom of speech for murderers to give interviews etc. I'd rather take away all of their rights and change things so there's zero chance of them affecting anyone else, than kill them.

James Morcan wrote: "Harry wrote: "
'Cos I wanna be better than them. ..."

but harry if we kill them, and say "you took numerous lives so you have lost the right to live", then this is the ultimate way to feel better ..."

That's not the way I think of being better than them.

I actually often meditate where I send love to those that are most evil in the world. I think it's of the utmost importance, as difficult as I recognise it to be. This is what will change the world: loving those that are the worst of the worst. As long as we have anger and revenge in our hearts, society will never heal.

Harry wrote: "James Morcan wrote: "Harry wrote: "You make some good points in this post though. ..."

Told ya.
Lots of future victims created by keeping serial killers alive...especially that life doesn't always..."

I think killing them sounds more humane...

Harry wrote: "James Morcan wrote: "Harry wrote: "
'Cos I wanna be better than them. ..."

but harry if we kill them, and say "you took numerous lives so you have lost the right to live", then this is the ultimat..."

Buh humbug!

I'll send ya some love, Lisa. ;)

Harry wrote: "Nah, I don't agree with your: 'it's either this or that' approach. Yes, I'm talking from an ideal perspective - I always do. Nowt wrong with that.

For someone who's whole group hinges on changing the system, I don't see why you say we can't change things like freedom of speech for murderers to give interviews etc. ..."

Am always open to new and better systems, but given freedom of speech laws and the rights of prisoners in place now, I think an ideal state or utopian environment would take a long while to achieve but agree it might be possible "one day"...Whether that one day is like 100 years away or so, I have no idea. It may not be easily achieved as there are a lot of civil rights campaigners who fight for prisoners rights, even rights of serial killers...
But anyway, I would argue in the question of this poll it's basically implied how to deal with the worst psychopaths right now in 2015/16, rather than including a sub-question of how to change the prison system and then voting on that level.

So in the meantime...
It appears by advising the current system must be changed that you do accept the argument that more victims will be created until a utopian prison system arrives...I note there have been been no counter arguments to the points listed on the various ways some serial killers given "life sentences" do manage to commit more murders (whether by living long enough to be released as elderly people, craftily orchestrating murders from behind bars, or simply influencing other lesser-known criminals behind bars or else in the public).

So if you weren't an author and poet, but a politician, and you knew that by keeping these serial killers alive more innocent children and adults will be slaughtered until the aforementioned utopian systems arrives, what would you do? If you could see all the faces of the innocent victims to come, would you think less about protecting serial killers lives? Or would you accept the victims as "collateral damage" necessary to live in a civilized society?

Personally, I go back to my previous answer to these questions: Even if we could save just one child's life (obviously it'd be hundreds of thousands or millions worldwide, but let's say it's just 1 child), it'd be worth saving that child by wiping all absolutely guilty serial killers off the face of the Earth...

A lot of people have mentioned spirituality in this poll...And I think that's all great and I share your spiritual approaches to life, but I also think sometimes we spiritual people tend to go too passive at times...Sometimes real spirituality is about actions in the world and those are often very difficult actions and sometimes even involve (constructive or positive) usage of violence. For example, I would say killing millions of Nazis was a very positive and necessary and even a spiritual usage of violence and murder. It perhaps saved hundreds of millions of lives worldwide as the Nazis were obviously never going to stop until world domination was achieved. Likewise, I would argue official government murders of serial killers are very spiritual or positive usages of violence when we consider by keeping them alive more lives will be lost.

And given all the spiritual comments mentioned, perhaps Carl Jung's quote is somehow related to this poll: "One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious".

James Morcan wrote: "Harry wrote: "Nah, I don't agree with your: 'it's either this or that' approach. Yes, I'm talking from an ideal perspective - I always do. Nowt wrong with that.

For someone who's whole group hing..."

Well, I haven't been responding to the poll with the amendment of 'what do we do right now 2015/2016'. I've been responding from a moral/ethical standpoint, as the right to kill (regardless of circumstances) is an ethical question.

I've already answered how I feel about the rest of your points, and I've been repeating myself enough already. I'm sure everyone's bored by now. :)

But I'm just repeating what all the great sages and gurus have always said: Love and Forgive. It's just the majority of the world never have.

To know love, forgiveness and compassion fully is to never exclude an individual.

What could we do right now? Decriminalise drugs, free up prison space and strengthen isolated imprisonment for those that are the very worst.

A society that believes in killing will help to create future psychopaths just as much as (if not more so) an individual murderer who has free speech. Let's change roots causes of problems if we really want to stop evil in the world.

Harry wrote: "Decriminalise drugs, free up prison space and strengthen isolated imprisonment for those that are the very worst...."

That'd be a great start Harry. We disagree on much philosophically on this debate, but I suspect the one thing we can agree on is all the millions around the world serving lengthy sentences when they are not violent let alone psychopathic (e.g. drug addicts) is just ridiculous!

James Morcan wrote: "Harry wrote: "Decriminalise drugs, free up prison space and strengthen isolated imprisonment for those that are the very worst...."

That'd be a great start Harry. We disagree on much philosophical..."

Hey! I agree!

But James, we can change the prison system now. They can give a prisoner life without parole. They can keep the prisoners who have life without parole away from other prisoners, if Americans do something about it.

Anyway you look at it (from your 351 post) we have to reform the prison system anyway. I am all for NOT allowing psychopaths in prison to associate with other lesser criminals in order to influence them.

I also don't think that free speech includes hate speech and so believe that there should be a law against hate speech and not just for prisoners.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/8/...

Yes, spirituality is about action. I can't speak for Harry or Iona, but I do believe that Hitler should have been stopped, that we had to go to war to stop him, but I also believe that the U.S. has engaged in wars that should not have been fought, but that is a different subject. So I believe we do have a right to defend ourselves, but once the murderer is in prison, once he has been stopped, I feel it is wrong to take his life.

Carmel wrote: "Fay wrote: "I feel like having a life sentence in prison would be more torture than just being put to death so quickly.
Then again, it may depend on which prison and its conditions.
But I do think..."

All lives matter.
Even the ugliest of the criminals matter.

Well then the government needs to rebuild the system that will ensure there are no early releases.

Now I know what this reminds me of...

John 8:1-11

A Woman Caught in Adultery

8 Jesus returned to the Mount of Olives, 2 but early the next morning he was back again at the Temple. A crowd soon gathered, and he sat down and taught them. 3 As he was speaking, the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in the act of adultery. They put her in front of the crowd.

4 “Teacher,” they said to Jesus, “this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 The law of Moses says to stone her. What do you say?”

6 They were trying to trap him into saying something they could use against him, but Jesus stooped down and wrote in the dust with his finger. 7 They kept demanding an answer, so he stood up again and said, “All right, but let the one who has never sinned throw the first stone!” 8 Then he stooped down again and wrote in the dust.

9 When the accusers heard this, they slipped away one by one, beginning with the oldest, until only Jesus was left in the middle of the crowd with the woman. 10 Then Jesus stood up again and said to the woman, “Where are your accusers? Didn’t even one of them condemn you?”

11 “No, Lord,” she said.

And Jesus said, “Neither do I. Go and sin no more.”

Fay, for once (!) I think that Biblical scripture is the perfect example and I agree wholeheartedly.

(And Lance, forgive me for giving you another nudge, but I can't help but give a little chuckle that I - a non-Christian- seem to be agreeing more with Christ than you are.... Just sayin'.... I think I'd best keep my wolf mouth shut though....)

Harry wrote: "Fay, for once (!) I think that Biblical scripture is the perfect example and I agree wholeheartedly.

(And Lance, forgive me for giving you another nudge, but I can't help but give a little chuckle..."

Wow, a historic moment. ;)

Harry wrote: "Fay, for once (!) I think that Biblical scripture is the perfect example and I agree wholeheartedly.

(And Lance, forgive me for giving you another nudge, but I can't help but give a little chuckle..."

I predict the Wolf won't keep his mouth shut for long...and it would be a sad day if he did!

I agree with you Fay up to a point. The psychopath was born that way. But not all are killers. I do believe in the forgiveness part, but at the same time, that is only in words, feelings, and belief, so it doesn't mean that they are allowed to commit a crime again. And I don't believe that we should call them "objects" as they have been referred to here.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetec...

Jessica wrote: "I agree with you Fay up to a point. The psychopath was born that way. But not all are killers. I do believe in the forgiveness part, but at the same time, that is only in words, feelings, and belie..."

Of course.

I believe people would rather die immediately rather than facing a slow painful death. One of the leading causes of death for inmates is suicide. Either way people will still end up dying.

killing them is too easy. Everyone will die eventually. I rather they spend their life sentence dying in prison.

Shine wrote: "killing them is too easy. Everyone will die eventually. I rather they spend their life sentence dying in prison."

My only concern with that line of thinking is why should I (and all other tax payers) pay to support their limited lifestyle in prison?

Stephen wrote: "Shine wrote: "killing them is too easy. Everyone will die eventually. I rather they spend their life sentence dying in prison."

My only concern with that line of thinking is why should I (and all ..."
I get that but aren't our taxes are already being used to support people who keep popping out children who also refuse to get a job. We're paying for section 8, food stamps, insurance etc. The whole tax situation is f'd up. lol

I personally wouldn't criticize food stamps.
They save lives...

Shine wrote: "Stephen wrote: "Shine wrote: "killing them is too easy. Everyone will die eventually. I rather they spend their life sentence dying in prison."

My only concern with that line of thinking is why sh..."

That is true, but there is the opportunity to make changes to those systems so the people are productive members of society. You can't do that with people in prison for life terms.

So a human life comes down to affordability.... That don't sound right to me...

Harry wrote: "So a human life comes down to affordability.... That don't sound right to me..."

One cannot put a monetary value on a human life.

But. ..until we figure out how to "fix" their brain, so they can actually become rehabilitated individuals, they should be given the death penalty. ..actually. ..let's pretend rehabilitation is possible. ..do you really think that an individual can live with themselves knowing what they have done?

Our prefrontal lobe can be considered a guardian angel for a healthy brain, but for an individual who lacks that "inner voice of reasoning " will never be a safe member of any community. ..not even prison. ..which, to me, seems like a meat market of lost souls searching for guidance.

Lisa wrote: "Harry wrote: "So a human life comes down to affordability.... That don't sound right to me..."

One cannot put a monetary value on a human life.

But. ..until we figure out how to "fix" their brai..."

I personally think even though the guilt would be upon that person every day, they could live with it after rehabilitation. It's happened before in less horrific but still serious situations.

Fay wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Harry wrote: "So a human life comes down to affordability.... That don't sound right to me..."

One cannot put a monetary value on a human life.

But. ..until we figure out how to "fi..."

I'm not sure i agree with you on that one. ..I think it would be a miserable existence not only living with the knowledge of your horrendous acts, but also living in fear that potentially you could revert back to your old self.

Lisa wrote: "I'm not sure i agree with you on that one. ..I think it would be a miserable existence not only living with the knowledge of your horrendous acts, but also living in fear that potentially you could revert back to your old self..."

Sounds a lot like Clockwork Orange to me.

Lisa wrote: "Fay wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Harry wrote: "So a human life comes down to affordability.... That don't sound right to me..."

One cannot put a monetary value on a human life.

But. ..until we figure ou..."

What I meant was, yes it would be miserable, but it would be possible.

Stephen:

"I was cured alright!" :)

Stephen wrote: "Lisa wrote: "I'm not sure i agree with you on that one. ..I think it would be a miserable existence not only living with the knowledge of your horrendous acts, but also living in fear that potentia..."

Had never heard of it before, so i goggled it. ..sounds interesting. ..gonna add the book to my "to read" list.

Lisa wrote: "Stephen wrote: "Lisa wrote: "I'm not sure i agree with you on that one. ..I think it would be a miserable existence not only living with the knowledge of your horrendous acts, but also living in fe..."

It is very interesting, and kinda applies to the topic.

Stephen wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Stephen wrote: "Lisa wrote: "I'm not sure i agree with you on that one. ..I think it would be a miserable existence not only living with the knowledge of your horrendous acts, but also..."

Yea? I'll put it high on my list; )

Fay wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Fay wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Harry wrote: "So a human life comes down to affordability.... That don't sound right to me..."

One cannot put a monetary value on a human life.

But. ..until..."

I figured that's what you meant :) ...I guess the definition of "possibility " comes to play a little. ...of course, pretty much anything is possible, but i don't think it's the right way to go about it. To me it sounds like endless torment...which could be viewed as the ultimate punishment. ..but what would be the purpose of punishing a rehabilitated person?

James Morcan wrote: "I personally wouldn't criticize food stamps.
They save lives..."

Im not criticizing foodstamps. Im talking about people who are living off of welfare benefits and plan to continue living off welfare benefits. Im all for giving it to the people who actually need it. It should be for people who need help not so that they can comfortably live off it for the rest of their lives.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/a...

Lisa wrote: "Yea? I'll put it high on my list; ) ..."

See the movie, Lisa!
It's fun viewing (if you're a psychopath)
p.s. I enjoyed the movie :)

James Morcan wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Yea? I'll put it high on my list; ) ..."

See the movie, Lisa!
It's fun viewing (if you're a psychopath)
p.s. I enjoyed the movie :)"

Lol...hmmm...are you saying you have psychopathic tendencies ; )?
...and if i enjoy it, i have such tendencies as well?
I'll look for the movie when i get home :)

Shine wrote: "Im not criticizing foodstamps. Im talking about people who are living off of welfare benefits and plan to continue living off welfare benefits. Im all for giving it to the people who actually need it. It should be for people who need help not so that they can comfortably live off it for the rest of their lives...."

I used to share that concern, until someone (much brighter than I am) advised me that having those who rip off the system is "the price you pay for a civilized society". So these days I tend to think a smart nation should be generous with social welfare and assume that there will be a small element (maybe 5-10%) who "free load".

Otherwise, according to what I've observed, in nations where it goes to far to the Right you end up with homeless people on every single street corner and no universal healthcare to cover the poor.
I can think of one or two nations that fit that bill...

Lisa wrote: "Lol...hmmm...are you saying you have psychopathic tendencies ; )?
...and if i enjoy it, i have such tendencies as well?
I'll look for the movie when i get home :) ..."

Well, Stanley Kubrick was such a genius that he could make you realize (or else think) you have certain tendencies...And in A Clockwork Orange he makes entertainment out of something you really shouldn't enjoy...So whether that means I can purely blame Kubrick, or whether I'm also a closet or repressed psychopath, I'm not sure!

Hmmm...Maybe I better change my vote from a YES to a NO...just in case...

James Morcan wrote: "Lisa wrote: "Lol...hmmm...are you saying you have psychopathic tendencies ; )?
...and if i enjoy it, i have such tendencies as well?
I'll look for the movie when i get home :) ..."

Well, Stanley ..."

Lol...
Actually sounds like something I would be fascinated by.