Poll
Do you think there should be a death penalty for the most heinous crimes?
YES
NO
UNSURE
349 total votes
Poll added by: James
Comments Showing 251-300 of 509 (509 new)
That is true, Jessica. And a lot of New Age beliefs are old age beliefs, also true. But your statements above have been thought about many times, by many people, which is why firing squads are armed with rifles loaded both with blanks and live rounds. The electric chair buttons are wired to work from some and not others. In other words, you do not know if you are the one who executes or not. Hanging is the toughest to sanitise, and beheading. Sociopaths feel no such remorse. Russia apparently used to test people to see which ones had sociopathic tendencies and then conscript them. Even native American tribes, pre and post Colonisation, had rights of passage to see if a boy had what it took to kill. Some can, some can't. The Spartans, as we know, viewed it most harshly when their boys could not or would not kill. Ancient Celts left their man child out to kill their wolf to prove manhood. None of it good, but it is reality that this is part of human nature and these habits have been turned into teens running around Lazer game centres, 'Killing' each other with laser marks, or paint balls. You can hire tanks and have battles, too. Wild animals are being surreptitiously slaughtered, not for food, but for fun, by morons anxious to prove they have a bigger rifle than the wombat they just spotted. It's not just people who get killed. What about all the animals that are euthanised every day because back yard breeders think that they have a right to illegally breed? Or animals taken and hunted and tortured for FUN? On and on it goes. Mankind is not just one species, but the predominant species on this planet is a, politically incorrect, troglodyte. At the tail end of this, it comes to this - needs must, and so we do. Come swinging an axe at my family, I'll chop off your feet and watch you bleed out. I'll suffer the consequences later, when they are safe. But I won't eat you. Promise. I am compassionate, but I am not willing to be foolishly righteous. I also won't hate you, and forever is a long time. I assure you, when you are in spirit, you will see how your actions played out, with compassion.
Jessica wrote: "James Morcan wrote: "Erma wrote: "There is no healing every kind of 'broken', and leaving them to rot in a cell, or worse have better treatment and money dumped into housing and feeding and treatin..."Thanks, Jessica for your views with which I am in total agreement. Yes, compassion! And it was one of my points too that these views harm the persons having them above all, At some point they will hopefully realize that.
James Morcan wrote: "Jessica wrote: "While there is no fix for the psychopath, that doesn't mean that person should then be murdered. What that does then is bring you to his/her level. a psychopath was born that way......"Good story, James, but should this man have been put to death because of his tooth problem?
No Iona, but just mentioned as an example of how psychopathic behaviour could come about in diff ways. Also, remember I recommend the death penalty only for the 100% proven to be guilty murders of numerous or dozens of deaths...the worst killers of all, like Ted Bundy.
Jessica wrote: "I also know that hating others causes one harm; it causes harm to a person who even pushes the button. The solders are harmed when they come back from war; those wounds often do not heal. But at times it is necessary to go to war, to even defend your family; still it affects the mind when you do so. A person who says that he/she would gladly push the button may be just talking; if they had to do it and had to watch the person die, they will have to live with that forever. It is bad enough that people have to live with the death of those they love who have been killed by anyone, war or otherwise.People really need to examine their views and values. ."
I agree with you to a point. But only to a point.
I have examined my views and values. Lengthily (oh, wow! that is a word! lol). I used to be naive and believed that everyone has good in them, that it just takes giving them a chance for them to show it. That if just one person would be willing and kind, that even the worst people would change and not be cruel towards others.
And that is, sadly, not so. Mind you, there are occasions that this is the case. People often get stereotyped. But, as a good friend of mine points out, stereotypes are often there for a reason - at one point enough people demonstrated those traits to get applied to ALL. They don't even have to be modern traits!
I try not to stereotype, and jump on this friend (and other people) for often making generalizations. I highly dislike this.
But, there are some cases where compassion is not always immediately evident.
I assist a few people I know closely with PTSD (that was what you were referring to, indirectly, correct?). There is a certain bit of resignation that their pain helped keep others from feeling that pain, or worse.
Very few veterans I know would say "I wish I had just stayed home, not raised my hand. It wasn't worth this." Families of that individual, yes. But that man or woman? I don't know a single one.
This isn't about hating others. This isn't about being destructive for destructions sake. It is about preventing *further* pain and suffering. And some people are willing to stand up and be that buffer for the rest of the population.
It isn't about being as messed up as those they are "pushing the button" for. It is about protecting others. Otherwise, we would never have soldiers, police officers, security guards, prison guards, and would instead be nations full of deserters, abandoning their posts "because their conscience told them so".
I don't know about you, but I am thankful for those willing to put their lives, minds, and hearts on the line to protect mine, and my family's.
(Dang, soapbox city for me today. Hope the kids get up soon!)
Thank you for reading my opinion. I am, though, open to be educated further, and maybe my mind will change yet again. Who knows?
James Morcan wrote: "Erma wrote: "There is no healing every kind of 'broken', and leaving them to rot in a cell, or worse have better treatment and money dumped into housing and feeding and treating and educating them ..."Defence is not the same as punishment. "The right thing to do"?
James Morcan wrote: "No Iona, but just mentioned as an example of how psychopathic behaviour could come about in diff ways. Also, remember I recommend the death penalty only for the 100% proven to be guilty murders of..."
Okay. Good you point out that you only recommend the death penalty in these certain cases, as that was not the impression I had had.
Erma wrote: "Jessica wrote: "I also know that hating others causes one harm; it causes harm to a person who even pushes the button. The solders are harmed when they come back from war; those wounds often do not..."I saw some veterans on TV the other day . British veterans. They were standing in front of Buckingham Palace or wherever it was . They had received medals from the Queen, Now they threw them back to her on the street. They regretted all the killing they had done, now knew better. It was very moving.
Yeah, but Iona, there are some soldiers who upheld the freedoms you enjoy today...British/American soldiers who fought against the Nazis for example.We gotta accept there are some killings that are positive for society. Stopping Hitler required millions of killings and had a 100% positive outcome for our society...Otherwise most if not all of the world would now be a Nazi regime...
Pacifism is not right in every circumstance.
Iona wrote: "I saw some veterans on TV the other day . British veterans. They were standing in front of Buckingham Palace or wherever it was . They had received medals from the Queen, Now they threw them back to her on the street. They regretted all the killing they had done, now knew better. It was very moving."I'm sure it was very moving. But, let me also point out, it was publicity. That's all. This kind of thing happens when the cameras are rolling, and it applies to the *medals* they received, not their service.
I know of stories where some have denied the Purple Heart medal in the US, calling it something akin to the "Enemy Marksman" award. The medals are BS. The service, priceless (even if the government puts a $50,000 - $400,000 pricetag on each soldier).
Carmel wrote: "Okay. If someone comes knocking on the door of my family to harm, molest, mutilate, or murder, I am there. If someone takes one of my children to harm them, I. Am.There. If a country invades my cou..."Yes that is the bottom line isn't it. If you make this personal you can guarantee that I'll be there! That is self defense not active aggression.
James Morcan wrote: "On the contrary, I am a believer in many New Age ideas....But I also think there's also a flakey BS side to the New Age movement that I'm sure we can all agree on. And I think some of that relates ..."You are so right James. Greedy commercialism runs the New Age Movement not true spirituality. That is a quest and does not involve money or joining anyones club or following any particular person / self made god image.
James Morcan wrote: "Interesting stats Michael, but being mentally ill does not mean a psychopath. In fact, many mentally ill are the antithesis of psychopaths as they are extremely sensitive and have a heightened sens..."I would like to see the proof of what you just said James. I have never known a mentally ill person to have a heighten sense of compassion, instead, I have seen that they are often self-centered because they are wrapped up in their own pain and suffering. And I also know that sociopaths are able to experience empathy, although it is hard to come by.
And no matter who we are, we all have different moral capacities, just as we have different intellectual capacities, and this is why in so many debates few change their views.
Jessica wrote: "I would like to see the proof of what you just said James. I have never known a mentally ill person to have a heighten sense of compassion, instead, I have seen that they are often self-centered because they are wrapped up in their own pain and suffering...."Gotta respectfully disagree with this, Jessica.
For staters, about 50% of those in the arts have been estimated to be depressives (one of the most common mental illnesses), and obviously most in the arts are very compassionate/empathetic.
The rest is just my personal observation, but I've known dozens of mentally ill people who are extremely compassionate and just seem to feel life more brutally than the common man. Now obviously that doesn't include all mentally ill people and there are some really sinister types in the mentally ill, but I first started this comment as someone mentioned or implied (possibly inadvertently due to ambiguous wording) that all mentally ill are psychopaths, which I was pointing out is definitely not the case.
James, I knew that you were just making that up, and you still are and all for argument sake.
Jessica wrote: "James, I knew that you were just making that up, and you still are and all for argument sake."Jessica, um, you're putting words in my mouth here.
But that's okay :)
To clarify:
Nowhere did I say I have any hard or definitive statistics on the matter of mentally ill compared to psychopaths or how many mentally ill are compassionate people.
To repeat, I was playing the Devil's Advocate in relation to someone earlier on who said/implied (I think possibly inadvertently) that all mentally ill are all psychopaths. That assumption that all mentally ill lack compassion seemed obviously incorrect and so I provided some counter examples.
One stat I did read tho was that 50% of artists are depressives...actually I think it was manic depressives. That was just one psychiatrist who estimated that after conducting a survey and then expanding on that with an estimate, but I would guess it's fairly close to the truth. Most artists are compassionate, yet tend to be quite volatile personalities with major mood swings - and there's a higher degree of mental illness in the arts than most other professions (in my observation - again not saying that's a hard stat).
Possibly Princess Diana might be a good example to use. Diana was mentally ill (she was diagnosed bipolar aka manic depressive I think is the other term for that disorder) and yet clearly was an extremely empathetic/compassionate individual at the same time...Arguably the most compassionate celebrity of recent times, in fact. According to my observation (again, not using any stats as I have none), there are many mentally ill like Diana.
Words from an ex-executioner: "You can’t tell me I can take the life of people and go home and be normal.
It’s clear from speaking to Givens that he is a compassionate man. He talks often of being able to look past the crime to see the human being underneath. “We degrade people and call them animals,” he told ThinkProgress. “But when I worked on death row, I didn’t see that animal. I saw a human being. When you call people an animal and treat them like that, that’s the behavior they’ll show you. But they can also show you that they’re not like that; that everybody can change.
How did this compassionate man become an enforcer of the death penalty? What did it take for him to kill another human being? For Givens, it was a steadfast faith in the justice system. This faith meant that doubts were suppressed and fears were tolerated. Any gnawing unease was overpowered by the notion that it must be the right thing to do – it was state-certified, after all.
always ask myself, would I have agreed to participate in executions if I knew then what I do now?” Steve J. Martin, an execution witness for the Texas Department of Corrections, told ThinkProgress. “We do these things that we would normally never be involved in because they’re sanctioned by the government. And then we start walking through them in a mechanical fashion. We become detached. We lose our humanity.”
This is what we are asking people to do for us, and even that is morally wrong. from the book: Confessions of an Executioner.
More from the same book:
"The argument that a convict’s crime was so heinous that it negates any qualms about their execution is popular with death penalty supporters. The incongruity of using the actions of a convicted killer to determine the baseline for what’s morally acceptable is not lost on Givens, who views this as a dire expression of our most base and ugly thirst for revenge.
It is revenge – you can’t put it any other way,” he said. “We want revenge and we want it right away. Death is going to occur anyway, but we’re so impatient we have to execute someone. That’s the mentality people have. America was built on killing and there’s hatred in our hearts. But it shouldn’t be that way.”
And one more post before I call it a night. I just emailed my psychologist friend, and this is what she wrote. If anyone remembers in this debate I felt that mentally ill people were self-centered due to their pain, and James said that many mentally ill had heightened compassion:Here is her answer:
"I can't really say that mentally ill individuals have heightened compassion any more than any other person but I don't agree that they are self-centered. Instead, I would look at mentally ill people as overwhelmed with their pain and suffering. Being self-centered denotes a personal choice which is not an option for the mentally ill. I hope this helps. When doctors and lawyers are on death row to the same extent that persons of color or of wealth are then I will believe in the death penalty."
Jessica wrote: "When you call people an animal and treat them like that, that’s the behavior they’ll show you. But they can also show you that they’re not like that; that everybody can change."Maybe you missed my point earlier, but I will recap here, Jessica.
Not everyone can change. There are people out there that are not much better than animals. Trust me. They get their pleasure out of hurting others. I have encountered them, and feel fortunate that I came out of it with my life.
You can argue for the benefit of your own conscience, but until you can show me proof, I will not buy your assertations.
Remember, though, that borderlines, psychopaths, and narcissists are charming and adaptable enough to appear as well adjusted citizens, and have shown remarkable 'rehabilitation', just to go out and further harm innocents.
For those that can be treated, that should be the primary goal. But not everyone can be successfully rehabilitated. At that point, we do what we must to protect others.
There are enough that have been hurt out there willing to make a difference and do what others cannot. Do not pass judgement until you have been there, please. Other peoples' word are just that - theirs.
Jessica wrote: "And one more post before I call it a night. I just emailed my psychologist friend, and this is what she wrote. If anyone remembers in this debate I felt that mentally ill people were self-centered ..."Jessica, Jessica, Jessica :)
Again, you're putting words in my mouth and you are misquoting me.
Nowhere did I say that the mentally ill are always compassionate people, nor would I be that dumb as the mentally ill is a big blanket of a category that covers everyone from those with mild depression to psychotic individuals.
However, you did say “I have never known a mentally ill person to have a heighten sense of compassion, , instead, I have seen that they are often self-centered” and I was replying to that subjective viewpoint that appears to indicate you might need to meet more mentally ill (who comprise a fairly large sector of society as opposed to psychopaths who are a comparatively small sector of society).
And note that all your psychologist friend confirms is that she “can't really say that mentally ill individuals have heightened compassion any more than any other person” which does not remotely mean they lack compassion and implies she’s met many with compassion. She also wrote “I don't agree that they are self-centered”, and I would definitely agree with her there also and that was part of my point all along.
So I think your psychologist actually seems to be agreeing with my arguments a lot more than yours there, if you think about it. It appears that psychologist is indicating that to label most mentally ill as being self-centered is overly simplistic to say the least… Which seems obvious to me.
Beyond Princess Diana, there are many other mentally ill people who are/were major figures in the world of charity.
Angelina Jolie is another mentally ill – she has clinical depression yet spends much of her time working on children’s charities.
Likewise with Russell Brand who speaks on the behalf of the homeless and underprivileged.
Ashley Judd has tried to commit suicide I believe and is a long term depressive yet also does major charity work especially for abused women.
Robin Williams was in the same boat.
Hell, even Mother Teresa struggled with depression all her life.
These are a tiny percentage of clearly very compassionate/empathetic individuals who have/had mental illnesses.
But to reiterate, and (hopefully!) for the last time, I am definitely not saying all mentally ill are compassionate...only an idiot would say that, especially when a big percentage of the prison population are mentally ill.
Now can we return to the orginal debate, people? Starting to get derailed here...
So returning to the poll: Do you think there should be a death penalty for the most heinous crimes?
James Morcan wrote: "These are a tiny percentage of clearly very compassionate/empathetic individuals who have/had mental illnesses. "I can go a step further and name a few in my own life that I consider good friends... (I won't here, because that would be rude, but some are following this discussion.)
I agree with Jessica's psychologist friend, as well, James.
James Morcan wrote: "I voted unsure on this one. Can't decide.
I understand how it's barbaric for our society to be killing people who are probably insane.
Then again, when you see people rape, torture and murder inno..."
Some countries have very strict punishments. for example, in some Islamic nations a thief is punished by cutting off the hands. I would like to know if any study has been made to ascertain whether crime rates in these countries are lower than that in countries where the law is not so strict.
You know what I find most interesting is how this subject brings out the disagreeable side of people, rather than the listening side. To hear another's opinion, without necessarily agreeing with it, does not mean you are colluding with them. It means that you are open and willing to discuss. I know, for instance, I disagree with murder, rape and other such crimes. I have a limited agreement with capitol punishment, and only under such circumstances as it would be so rare as to not be rare. But it does not mean that I cannot agree, nor that I would not help people to heal if they are such criminals. Please, try to keep the personal out of it. James has done an interesting thing, in letting us convene to discuss such a topic, with impunity. I think that all of us would agree that much would depend on circumstance and how personal it was. For instance, if someone, anyone, was holding a BBQ fork to your daughters or sons necks, spit at the ready, how many of us/you would ask them how they were feeling and if they'd had a rough childhood, or had done this before, and had they tried art therapy, perhaps? Thanks James! This is a wonderful conversation. I appreciate you finding great topics for us to debate. I wonder what the next one will be...?
Jessica wrote: "words from an ex-executioner: You can’t tell me I can take the life of people and go home and be normal.It’s clear from speaking to Givens that he is a compassionate man. He talks often of being ..."
Very good points, Jessica! I love your posts. <3
James wrote: "Nowhere did I say that the mentally ill are always compassionate people, nor would I be that dumb as the mentally ill is a big blanket of a category that covers everyone from those with mild depression to psychotic individuals." I never said that you made a blanket statement. I used your wording in my message to my friend where you used the word "Many." And you were using HEIGHTENED compassion, which is different than normal compassion. My friend was just saying that we are all different, so she was not agreeing with you on this.
And yes, I also said that I believed mentally ill to be self-centered, and she corrected me, for which I was grateful.
Erma wrote: "Jessica wrote: "When you call people an animal and treat them like that, that’s the behavior they’ll show you. But they can also show you that they’re not like that; that everybody can change."Ma..."
I didn't write that Erma, an executioner wrote that, and I only posted what he wrote because he is the one pushing the button, he is the one who is deeply disturbed by his job, who finally quit. Many executers, he said do not tell others, not even their family, what they do for a living, and they are mentally damaged by what they do. That was the purpose of that post. We, by supporting the death penalty, are harming many others that we do not think about. No one in his/her right mind would want a murderer to remain free, especially if they cannot be rehabilitated. I am only calling for imprisonment.
Animals are mostly better than human killers. They basically kill for food, to protect their babies. They normally don't go out of their way to find other animals or people to kill. Some people do go out of their way. And maybe there are rogue animals that do. I don't recall.
As for sociopaths and empathy, here is where I found on that:
http://www.sociopathworld.com/2013/07...
P.S. I never passed judgement on you Erma.
P.P.S.
Erma wrote: "For those that can be treated, that should be the primary goal. But not everyone can be successfully rehabilitated. At that point, we do what we must to protect others."
And I agree, "We do what we must to protect others." But to me that just means prison, not death.
"Remember, though, that borderlines, psychopaths, and narcissists are charming and adaptable enough to appear as well adjusted citizens, and have shown remarkable 'rehabilitation', just to go out and further harm innocents."
I know all of this about borderlines, psychopaths, and narcissists. I have dealt with enough of them in my life.
1. When I lived in Berkeley, my first year in college, I had to pick the remainder of the classes. I studied philosophy and psychology, and the next year more psychology courses and then sociology. I stuck with sociology for a while, as it was more to my liking.
2. I had two friends in college who had breakdowns, paranoid schizophrenia. I finally had to break off those friendships.
3. I had one friend who was manic depressive. When she was manic she was a lot of fun, when she was slicing her wrist she wasn't.
Because of her, I went to work for suicide prevention, trying to help her. After a few years, I became a senior volunteer. One day my manic depressive friend called the hotline. She had just tried to kill herself, and I had answered the phone.
Later on in years, I had a friend who was a psychiatrist and who wanted me to work for him in his office. He was a charming sociopath. Charming was obvious, but he used to confide in me for advice, and he admitted that he had no emotions, no empathy for his clients. Sociopaths make good therapists. I met his clients, as they came in and as they came out of his office; we were sociable.
Someone here brought up chilling psychopaths: I know what it is like to be around a "chilling" psychopath, and I know a hit man who has nightmares about those he has killed. He is now in prison, not for murder, but he had he had become a pedophile.
I worked at the Red Cross, and they wanted me to help out with the mentally ill because that is where they believed I could do the most good.
Sometimes words on his debate forum are meant for others, to get digs. I don't post to get digs or to hurt people's feelings, if I do hurt anyone's feelings, I am sorry and apologize. I give my opinion just as others do. Some on here are very angry and are full of hate. I have not addressed those people personally. They have to deal with their own feelings on this subject, and this subject really is a tough one.
Jessica wrote: "James Morcan wrote: "Jessica wrote: "James, I knew that you were just making that up, and you still are and all for argument sake."Jessica, um, you're putting words in my mouth here.
But that's o..."
How about x-altruism? https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...
James Morcan wrote: "Yeah, but Iona, there are some soldiers who upheld the freedoms you enjoy today...British/American soldiers who fought against the Nazis for example.We gotta accept there are some killings that ar..."
I believe Pacifism IS right in every circumstance.
There is a massive difference between defending oneself (from an individual psychopath or an invasion of Nazis) and killing with intent.
Pacifism stands for never killing with intent, which is what the death penalty is.
Again, I ask (costs aside, as this is a moral question): why is locking someone up forever not good enough?
Why go the extra step of killing them?
Surely it's only to make ourselves feel better - no?
I try to promote unconditional love and unconditional compassion. That's way, way above anything else in my book.
And to love those that do evil things is the best way of unlocking true love and compassion in oneself.
Jessica wrote: "As for sociopaths and empathy, here is where I found that:http://www.sociopathworld.com/2013/07...
P.S. I never passed judgement on you Erma."
Very interesting article, Jessica. I will have to read it a few more times before I agree or disagree with it. Sad it didn't have a link to the study, but I'm sure I can find it (I'm a sucker for the facts, even if facts are fluid, based on new research).
I am thinking you have a point here, Carmel, and I am one who is a bit too close to this end of the subject, so I will step back and *listen* to the discussion for a bit, until it moves in a less triggering path. I apologize for any rudeness.
On a final note, I was not saying you were passing judgement on me, Jessica. You seem to have mistook that meaning. It was an all inclusive statement you posted earlier that I was reacting to. "...that everybody can change."
Look forward to this conversation continuing, especially now that the research is coming out!
Erma wrote: "Jessica wrote: "As for sociopaths and empathy, here is where I found that:http://www.sociopathworld.com/2013/07...
P.S. I never passed judgement on you Erma."
Very interesting article, Jessica...."
I understand Erma, but it was a quote from an executioner not me. I don't think most can change.
I do find it interesting that the charming sociopath that was a hit man actually had nightmares over killing people. That is something to think about. (For those who need to know, he was an ex-in-law that I happened to meet once. Charming, not chilling.
Jessica wrote: "I do find it interesting that the charming sociopath that was a hit man actually had nightmares over killing people. That is something to think about."Would be interesting to know if the nightmares precluded the job, or if it was the other way around?
J.D. wrote: "I can't say anyone would feel the same way as I do, but after much thought, this is my personal opinion on the matter, with no pressure to anyone reading it to agree with me:The victim/s or their..."
An interesting perspective thanks JD. I'll leave others to debate the merits of the points you make -- except to comment on your concluding statement "P.S. - Note that I don't believe that most people would choose the death penalty if it were in their hands..." --- As our poll stands right now the voting is dead (excuse the terminology) even with 38.7% saying YES to the death penalty and 38.7% saying NO. That's a big shift from exactly one week ago when the YES vote was only 22%. It's my guess the trending YES vote will result in a win for the right team, folks.
J.D. wrote: "After reading your comment, I looked up the DSM criteria for antisocial personality disorder -- often the words 'psychopath' or 'sociopath' are used to refer to people with this disorder. I was surprised to find that 'lack of remorse' was not necessarily a criteria for this diagnosis, meaning that certain individuals with this illness may feel remorse. Here's a link to the criteria (it's from the last edition of the DSM): http://behavenet.com/node/21650 -- lack of remorse is A.7, and isn't a required part of the diagnosis. It seems that the people referred to by the criteria are a sort of intersection between impulse control and violent tendencies -- a pretty troublesome combination."Interesting to note, though, that there is a red note at the top: "These criteria are obsolete". (And I believe the DSM V is the current edition.)
Lance Morcan wrote: "J.D. wrote: "I can't say anyone would feel the same way as I do, but after much thought, this is my personal opinion on the matter, with no pressure to anyone reading it to agree with me:The vict..."
Another thought regarding that paragraph, if i was one of the people affected by the crime, and therefore, in JD's opinion (if i understand correctly ), one of the people to decide the type of judgement, i can guarantee that being not only traumatized and under duress, I'd be filled with anger and disgust and any kind of rational thinking would not be a part of decision-making. ..i'd probably want to see the bastard tortured and suffer a slow death while rotting away in the cell.
Erma wrote: "FYI - The Personality Disorder Fact Sheet for the DSM V - http://www.dsm5.org/Documents/Persona..."
I think it's interesting that "more than 70 percent of the world's psychiatrists use WHO's International Classification of Diseases (ICD) most in day-to-day practice while just 23 percent turn to the DSM. The same pattern is found among psychologists globally, according to preliminary results from a similar survey of international psychologists conducted by WHO and the International Union of Psychological Science."http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/02/di...
J.D. wrote: "Lance Morcan wrote: "J.D. wrote: "I can't say anyone would feel the same way as I do, but after much thought, this is my personal opinion on the matter, with no pressure to anyone reading it to agr..."Do you feel that every single human being's life is of same worth/value as another? Should a cannibalistic, sadistic serial psychopathic, mutilating murderer have the same rights or worth as any other human being?
Murder in cold blood is always wrong. End of discussion.
P.J. wrote: "Murder in cold blood is always wrong. End of discussion."Hmmmm....if you were being attacked and brutally raped, but you were able to reach for an object and bludgeon your attacker to death. ..since there is a choice of not bludgeoning the attacker, do you consider this scenario to be in cold blood?
Jessica wrote: "Some on here are very angry and are full of hate...."Hmmm....
Assuming what is in the hearts of those in a poll whose group members you do not know and assuming anyone who holds opposing or contradictory viewpoints (about this very complex and layered topic) must naturally be a hater...
Kinda reminiscent of assuming all mentally ill people are "self-centered" individuals ;)
Is this gonna be a trend, or are you planning to move beyond quickfire assumptions about people you've never met in 2016? A New Year's Resolution, perhaps? :)
Personally, I haven't seen a shred of evidence to indicate anyone is full of hatred in this poll. I think everyone (from what I can observe) is coming from a very good place in this lively discussion. Yes many of us feel anger on this topic, but that's simply because we all want the world to have less victims, we are all sickened by the amount of crime and unnecessary carnage left behind by psychopaths - it's therefore an organic anger that stems from compassion. But we are seeing things from different perspectives, some members have been victims of psychopaths including from early on in their childhoods, others have been civil rights campaigners and others have been policemen and policewomen.
I think it's kinda appropriate that in an eclectic group of very intelligent citizens (myself excluded!), the poll is almost 50/50 in terms of Yes/No with about a third voting Unsure. It's a confusing subject and not black and white or obvious...For example, I started out voting UNSURE even tho I stated I was 99% against the death penalty, and always have been my entire life...However, I've reversed my vote to YES and now having pondered it further and listening to victims and their remaining families I feel about 95% sure that's the correct viewpoint...I just think the damage to society is too much in keeping serial killing psychopaths alive (not just the financial cost but a cost of future victims either directly or indirectly murdered by them as psychopaths can and sometimes do influence things remotely by remaining alive e.g. giving media interviews, interacting with other prisoners who will eventually be released, writing books etc, etc). So my thinking is even if we can save one innocent child's life from such a drastic measure, it's worth it. And my opinion ONLY relates to the worst of the worst serial killers who murder torture rape numerous or dozens of innocents and there is absolutely zero chance they could be innocent - the Ted Bundys of the world.
However, I am always open to being wrong and am enjoying learning and reading all the knowledge and ideas streaming forth in this debate.
So might it be possible to continue debating in a healthy intellectual spirit (like the Ancient Greeks) without assuming the other people in the debate "must be this" or "must be that"?
Lisa wrote: "P.J. wrote: "Murder in cold blood is always wrong. End of discussion."Hmmmm....if you were being attacked and brutally raped, but you were able to reach for an object and bludgeon your attacker t..."
The scenario you describe, Lisa, is self defense, not murder in cold blood. A prisoner strapped to a gurney is not an imminent threat.
Interesting study posted early this year.http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/...
"One in five violent offenders is a psychopath. They have higher rates of recidivism and don't benefit from rehabilitation programmes."
Also:
http://www.children.gov.on.ca/htdocs/...
"Rehabilitative treatment was a dominant response to criminal offending until concerns began to arise in the 1950s, 1960s and 1970s. During this period, a number of evaluation studies also suggested that rehabilitative efforts were not working."
On the other hand,
"In other words, rehabilitation works better than many of the programs and ideals that are rampant in corrections to date."
And:
"While the research on rehabilitation has come a long way over the last few decades to support the notion that “rehabilitation works,” a multitude of unanswered questions remain for future research to address. [...]
Studies that have actually consulted with known offenders have revealed that convicts are often not fond of rehabilitation or treatment efforts within the correctional environment – especially in the context of programs that emphasize personal risk or psychological perspectives."
J.D. wrote: "Lance Morcan wrote: "J.D. wrote: "I can't say anyone would feel the same way as I do, but after much thought, this is my personal opinion on the matter, with no pressure to anyone reading it to agr..."J.D. - On this issue I will not only "click a button on a website poll" but I will also volunteer to pull the switch or act as the hangman in the case of the most heinous crimes if there are no other volunteers...That's how strongly I feel about this issue. Let's face it...many offenders are unfortunately beyond rehabilitation.
Erma wrote: "Jessica wrote: "I do find it interesting that the charming sociopath that was a hit man actually had nightmares over killing people. That is something to think about."Would be interesting to know..."
It was my understanding at the time that the nightmares came from his job, not that he wanted to kill what he would consider 'innocent people.'
Has anyone thought of how executions continue to harm people?Executions Traumatize Corrections and Government Officials,Executions Traumatize Clergy, Jurors, Journalists, and Others, Executions Create New Victims, and Executions can Interfere with Healing
http://mtabolitionco.org/issues/secon...
Read this above article and then tell me that it was worth killing a murdered even though it caused much mental harm to those working in the justice system, etc.
And here is an article on how it affects the health of an executioner:
"Dow B. Hover, New York States executioner who killed people in the 50s and 60s and actually killed the last person on death row in New York State in 1963. Hover executed 44 people between 1954 and 1963 for $150.00 a piece plus expenses.
Hover, like other executioners, wound up eventually killing himself."
http://behavioralhealth.typepad.com/m...
http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/...
"The men and women who assist in executions are not psychopaths or sadists. They do their best to perform the impossible and inhumane job with which the state has charged them. Those of us who participated in executions often suffer something very much like posttraumatic stress. Many turn to alcohol and drugs. For me, those nights that weren’t sleepless were plagued by nightmares. My mother and wife worried about me. I tried not to share with them that I was struggling but they knew I was.”
Here is another one that I have not read:
http://web.stanford.edu/group/journal...
Here is an article on the death penalty that is really good. It comes from "Psychology Today":https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...
1. It is more expensive than staying in prison.
2. The Death Penalty Models the Behavior it Seeks to Prevent
3. it targets the poor; and people of color.
This article is really good and goes into a lot different aspects of the death penalty.
Harry,Just want to say that I like your post.
Jessica wrote: "Has anyone thought of how executions continue to harm people?Executions Traumatize Corrections and Government Officials,Executions Traumatize Clergy, Jurors, Journalists, and Others, Executions C..."
Great articles, Jessica! Some quotes;
"it is a barbaric practice that the United States, alone, of all civilized first world countries, continues."
""Many European countries look at the US in disdain because of our capital punishment practices which include the executing of mentally disabled people and adolescents."
"capital punishment is a very scripted and rehearsed murder. It´s the most premeditated murder possible."
Albert Einstein:
"I have reached the conviction that the abolition of the death penalty is desirable. Reasons: 1) Irreparability ..."
Thanks, Jessica, for giving us the views of these people to put some balance and enlightenment into this discussion,