Comments on Best Books Ever - page 42

twilight??
I'm looking for mortal instuments and iron fey..
sad, they're not included

I'm sorry, but I can't take this list seriously when Twilight is number one as the best book ever. That series shouldn't be any where NEAR a list that is meant to contain good literature.

Lizzy wrote: "I officially give up on the list because if twilight's there, then I have some issues with where society is going."


Agreed; the series shouldn't be any where near a list that's supposed to have good literature. It's one of the worst written series I've ever read, the characters are flat, and the 'love' story is nothing but a circle of stalker-y and obsessive tendencies.

Samara wrote: "U guys write TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH im not reading vanything but somthing sooo short im mis enable this thing!a"

Sorry. :(

Lisa wrote: "The Hunger Games is one of the best, definitely."

I love the Hunger Games too! Wish I'd had that for assigned reading in school instead of the other post-apocalyptic dystopian novels I had to read.

Im not reading enough.

Reading everyone's comments here, some people have strong views. Surely book choice is subjective? It is all down to opinion. What one likes another doesn't, that doesn't mean that the book is badly written. I loved Angela's Ashes for his voice and humour but some people were more drawn to his description of the poverty in which he grew up, either way it is a great book.Song of the Phoenix

I love Twilight!

the dune series is very good

HOW COME TWILIGHT IS AT THE FIRST PLACE???

Sherrie wrote: "Reading everyone's comments here, some people have strong views. Surely book choice is subjective? It is all down to opinion."

That's my view, but there are others here who seem to disagree.

I fail to understand why Twilight is number one.
Did Don Quixote, The Invisible Man, The Odyssey, Wuthering Heights fail to compare?

Oh wait, I guess all those books I just listed lacked a handsome young vampire that impregnates a human and then lives happily ever after.
Oh society, sometimes you really are a joke

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Sorry guys... just passing through... don't mind me...
I'm just on my way to check some J.G. Ballard books... carry on... Hey, Allison... allright, see you guys...

Looking for a quality fantasy romance? I just discovered "The Ballad of Young Tam Lin" by Patricia Leslie. https://www.createspace.com/3661637 for hardcopy, Amazon for Kindle. Great writing, totally engaging story, some thoughtful moments.

umm... I have a lot of time to think so I'm voting for the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy

I'm not trying to re-ignite the discussion between me and Allison/Kalin (although I think both parties agreed it was a rather good one) but I just stumbled on the following and felt like offering a little "food for thought": Wikipedia lists the all-time bestselling books on this page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_...
Twilight does appear as an "uber"-bestseller at more than 116 million copies sold for 4 novels that are only 6 years old.
The Harry Potter series is the ultimate best-selling series at more than 450 million copies sold for 7 novels.
The top best-selling single novel of all time is Dickens' Tale of Two Cities, followed by the beloved french tale "Le Petit Prince".

Being a movie fan, I can't help making the analogy with box-office and "respectable" films here. I know I'd rather watch Star Wars and Indiana Jones than 2001, A Space Odyssey but I do consider Kubrick to be the best filmmaker of all-time.
Bottom line: despite all the never-ending controversy with Twilight being number one of this list, if we consider the above-criteria of popularity, COULD THIS LIST actually be more accurate than we think???
Any comments on this?

I sense a few issues.

Karl wrote: "I sense a few issues."

Wait until he finds out what they do to kids at Hogwarts...

I find it interesting that people are concerned about where society is going with Twilight being number one, but there are so many supporters of The Hunger Games. Which is worse, vampire love, or teens killing teens (and Hunger Games being a retelling of Theseus doesn't make it more socially redeeming.)

I think everyone has his or her own taste in books, and I feel that's the way it should be. Not everyone is into horror, or mysterys, not everyone is in to romance, or westerns, but to each their own. It's nice though to have variety. Imagine the world without choice. Be a pretty sad world indeed. To each their own.

When I was (a lot) younger, I read a lot of Andre Norton (Witch World) - fun plots. Then I discovered Roger Zelazny (Amber series) - much better, but in retrospect, the writing is all tricks, and after about book 4, you begin to be able to predict exactly what he will say next.
Then, John Varley, David Brin, and Sir Terry Pratchett (Diskworld, Tiffany Aching). Each better than the last. And now, Patricia Leslie (The Ballad of Young Tam Lin), with what I really hope will be an extended (and well-known) series. Based on the first book, it's far more deserving than Twilight (or even Harry Potter.)

Bill wrote: "Being a movie fan, I can't help making the analogy with box-office and "respectable" films here."

It's a good analogy. Box office numbers and bestseller lists both represent what's popular and what's selling with the general public. One of my main questions (or maybe you could call it a complaint) is what rules dictate what makes a film or a book better or more respectable than the others? Is it influence? Following some "universal" laws of plot construction and character development? Originality? Age? And more importantly, if there are so-called rules... why do they have to be accepted and applied by the general public?

Bottom line: despite all the never-ending controversy with Twilight being number one of this list, if we consider the above-criteria of popularity, COULD THIS LIST actually be more accurate than we think???

I do believe that the list is very accurate to popularity. Most of the lists on Listopia largely reflect popularity... I think that's usually the case with anything that can be voted on by anyone.

Also, I don't really understand why popularity can't be factored into those so-called "rules" of what make a book good. Even if you're not a Harry Potter fan and you think the books are "bad", you can't deny that selling 450 million copies is an incredible incredible accomplishment.

Karl wrote: "And now, Patricia Leslie (The Ballad of Young Tam Lin), with what I really hope will be an extended (and well-known) series. Based on the first book, it's far more deserving than Twilight (or even Harry Potter.)"

This book? I can't help but notice that it was published by CreateSpace, a print-on-demand self-publishing company. I have to ask, why do you feel it's more deserving of fame and recognition than Twilight or Harry Potter?

Garry E. wrote: "It's nice though to have variety. Imagine the world without choice. Be a pretty sad world indeed. To each their own."

I agree! I find myself saying something about the same tune pretty often. I'd be miserable if bookstores only contained the romance novels my best friend loves. We both love books, but we don't love the same ones. :D

Yes, The Ballad of Young Tam Lin is currently self-published on CreateSpace. So? Harry Potter was rejected by EVERY publisher in Britain, and it was only by random chance that the managing editor of the eventual publisher happened to pick up the rejected manuscript. I feel Tam Lin is better than 90% of what is published, because I've read it, and can compare it to work like Twilight. You don't have to believe me. The Ballad of Young Tam Lin is on Kindle, and you can click on the "Look Inside" feature, and read the first 3 chapters FOR FREE.

Karl wrote: "Yes, The Ballad of Young Tam Lin is currently self-published on CreateSpace. So?"

Soooo.... I probably should have just kept that observation to myself, and not mentioned it like I was scoffing at the very idea. I have read and loved self-published books before, it's not like I think they're all terrible. Unfortunately, I've read more with spelling errors every three words and sentences that made no grammatical sense, which is why I (and I suppose most people) tend to look down on them.

I feel Tam Lin is better than 90% of what is published, because I've read it, and can compare it to work like Twilight.

But why? I'm just curious, what do you feel makes it better than other published and popular works?

The Ballad of Young Tam Lin is on Kindle, and you can click on the "Look Inside" feature, and read the first 3 chapters FOR FREE.

Personally, I'm not a fan of the original Tam Lin folklore and anything based on it is a bit of a turn-off for me. So sorry, I'll pass this time.

Why do I think Tam Lin is better than most of what's out there? I suppose, the same reason I believe that Jane Austin is better than Barbara Cartland, or Terry Pratchett is better than Edgar Rice Burroughs. Quality of writing - more evocative, more insightful, more captivating, more engaging, more memorable . . . how far do you want me to go?

I happen to know the author, and can testify that from first draft to first publication was 2 years, including multiple polishes, and at least 4 readings solely for proofing. As far a grammar goes, I have yet to read anyone with a better command of correct English structure and usage.

Not that it will likely make any difference if you hate the Tam Lin folklore, but the Elven queen who is such an evil bitch in the original is now one of the three protagonists (the other two being the two lovers, Tam Lin and Janet Dunbar), involved in a struggle to . . . well, if you hate the story, why would you care what the struggle is?

Re Allison and Tam Lin. Why was the book self-published? Well, 3 major publishers expressed interest in the book, and were sent the manuscript.
Publisher #1 (looking at it as YA) - "Really interesting, BUT it's too long. "THEY" won't read long books. It's very interesting, but it would be too much work to edit it down to a workable length."
Publisher #2 (looking primarily for urban fantasy). "Great writing and story, BUT not really our thing. Good luck with it."
Publisher #3. "We don't see how we could market it. It's a great story, BUT the target seems to be YA, but the characters are too old. THEY can't relate to anyone more than 2 years older than they are." (Tam Lin and Janet are 20).

Getting to the point of the last "great, BUT" took a total of 6 months of dealing with people who have no respect for their readers. Finally, Ms. Leslie decided to trust the intelligence and personal integrity of the audience, and let them decide. Not, in my mind, a reason to sneer.

Merry and meaningful Christmas, friends!

Let your hearts (and never any bestselling lists) guide your quests, in reading and life alike. :)

Joyous Solstice, and may the blessings of the returning Sun fill your life in the year to come.

Allison wrote: "what rules dictate what makes a film or a book better or more respectable than the others?"

Well, as you noticed yourself, the first instinct of a lot of people, when you tell them about your favorite book or film, is to question your intelligence. We all thrive to be smarter, more clever than we are and anything that gives that impression earns respectability. But if you're really honest, you'll have to admit that the books or films you prefer are simply the ones who give you more pleasure.
So, I think there are two schools and it boils down to those two things, intelligence vs. pleasure. It's not so much a matter of rules to follow. The works (whether books or films) that manage to both elevate your intellect AND give you whatever it is you need to be satisfyingly entertained are very rare, or rather, if they manage to do that, they usually don't do both at the same time (which is why, as you grow older, some books or films you remember fondly seem "kinda dumb" in retrospect whereas what seemed impenetrable before suddenly becomes exceptional once you "get" them).
I think what we see in the comments here is the antagonism between those two "factions" and both have arguments that make sense, so there's no real way to tell who's right and who's wrong.
And then, there are people (I like to think of myself as included in that category) who are conflicted. When I joined this site, I had set myself on a mission to read every Hugo award winning books I haven't read yet (which is about, hum... 95% of them? :p) but I've kept postponing that ever since I heard all the fuss about Hunger Games. (and yes, the fact that the movie comes out next year was an incentive :))



HAPPY HOLIDAYS EVERYONE!

While I agree that books which match all of one's criteria are rare, and that "good" is wholly relative, I think people self-impose rather a false dichotomoy between "good" (meaning quality) and "good" (meaning fun). I have read and enjoyed total crap (knowing it was crap). For example, in college, a friend and I read most of the E.E. "Doc" Smith books, because they were so awful they were great. Similarly, my wife and I read most of Burroughs' Mars books to each other. Awful writing can be fun. However, one should have some idea that it's awful. Ideally, one should also approach some concept of why one enjoys it.

For me to enjoy a novel now,it needs a compelling plot. There also needs to be a balance between description and action (why I preferred the movie of Girl With the Dragon Tattoo to the book), and at least a few characters I actually LIKE (why I prefer Nevada Barr to P.D. James). Then, to put the work over the top into "this is great" (as opposed to "this is fun"), there needs to be an ability to use language, not just to describe, but to evoke - to CREATE a reality rather than just tell about it. Some authors do it - Gaiman, Pratchett, Tolkien, Austin, Dickens (and, for me, Patricia Leslie.) But I will still read books I know are poorly written if some element grabs me enough.

To Bill and Karl's comments, I'd like to add another quality that makes a book compelling to me: its ability to move and even change me.

Admittedly, this is easier when you are younger and more impressionable. The more you've read/seen/experienced, the harder it gets. I guess that's one reason why most of our favorites are books we read as children/adolescents.

Here on Goodreads, I've restricted my five-star scores only to those books that have changed me in some perceptible way. (Many others have probably done it too, but I'm not aware of how and to what extent.) They're less than 5 per cent of what I've read. Which also explains why I do so much research these days before I decide to pick up another book. Heck, I can do better than those 5 per cent... :D

Hahaaaaaaaa Santa Clause and reindeers dancing!! So coooolllllll!!!!!!!

Good addition, Kalin. Another reason why I hope more people read The Ballad of Young Tam Lin. Some potentially transformative views of the place of animals in the web of life and compassion, and of the need to protect the natural world.

memoirs of a teenage amnesiac should be on the list
best book ever :)

Come on Twilight is number 1? I understand it is a popular series (I take my wife to see the movies) and it has a story to follow, but really number 1 come on! This book has nothing on The Killer Angels, or The Dark Tower Series...

By this point, Twilight is popular BECAUSE it is popular (Bandwagon fallacy). It's up there for the same reason teens sleep with their cell phones on their pillows - you don't dare miss out. Sometimes the mass hysteria throws up something good, like Harry Potter, or The Lord of the Rings (or the works of Dickens, which were hugely popular in his day.) Other times you get - other stuff.
That said, I still hope my current favorite book (The Ballad of Young Tam Lin, by Patricia Leslie) makes it into the top 10, because I think it is worthy of mass recognition.

This list is a travesty.... that is it !

Hey guys, one week no see! One of my new years resolutions is to spend less time on the internet, so if I'm a loyal and good Ally then you'll see less of me come 2012.

But if you're really honest, you'll have to admit that the books or films you prefer are simply the ones who give you more pleasure.

Yes, if I'm really honest I will admit that. :D But that's what a good book is supposed to be to me. It's supposed to be something that really engages me, walks me with characters that I adore, and a story that I can really care about. If I'm bored out of my wits or hate the characters or couldn't care less about the story, then once I've finished the book it hasn't moved me emotionally or intellectually.

The works (whether books or films) that manage to both elevate your intellect AND give you whatever it is you need to be satisfyingly entertained are very rare, or rather, if they manage to do that, they usually don't do both at the same time (which is why, as you grow older, some books or films you remember fondly seem "kinda dumb" in retrospect whereas what seemed impenetrable before suddenly becomes exceptional once you "get" them).

I feel like the books that elevate my intellect have to be books that entertain me as well, and I don't think they're rare... just different for everyone. And maybe it is just my youth that's preventing me from "getting" the the classics, and maybe when I get older I'll finally understand why "The Great Gatsby" is so great. Maybe. But I don't see it happening. I think the greatest books are the ones that don't need to rely on the reader being older and having had certain life experiences, which is why I don't much like the argument "When you're older, you'll appreciate it more."

Allison, don't hold your breath on Gatsby. I'm 60, have read it 4 times (the last time because I had to teach it), and, for me, it still sucks. That said, don't knock the experience thing. Aside from A Tale of Two Cities, I just couldn't plow through Dickens when I was a teen or in my twenties, nor Jane Austin. Not true later in my life. Maybe it's related to why I no longer feel a need to blow the windows out of my house when I listen to rock and roll. Patience? Perspective? I do know that I can appreciate Terry Pratchett's work much more from a mature perspective than I would have when younger, because I "get" more of what he's saying.

I am shocked & appalled that Twilight & the Potter books took the 1st 8 or was it 9(no, no ... don't tell me ...)spots for best book ever ... EVER??????

I don't know what to say except that I can not be a part of of any group who would vote such as these into the top spots. It's the ever that's killing me ... above To Kill a Mockingbird ... Of Mice and Men ... Great Expectations ... The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn ...

Topic should be "The Top Selling Books of the last 15 Years."

HARRY POTTER! <3

Twilight....I'm going to go scrub with bleach now.

Karl wrote: "Allison, don't hold your breath on Gatsby. I'm 60, have read it 4 times (the last time because I had to teach it), and, for me, it still sucks."

Good to know it's not just me or my age. :D

That said, don't knock the experience thing. Aside from A Tale of Two Cities, I just couldn't plow through Dickens when I was a teen or in my twenties, nor Jane Austin. Not true later in my life.
Maybe it's related to why I no longer feel a need to blow the windows out of my house when I listen to rock and roll. Patience? Perspective? I do know that I can appreciate Terry Pratchett's work much more from a mature perspective than I would have when younger, because I "get" more of what he's saying.

Like I said, maybe it is just my age. Maybe I'll come back to a number of classics later in life and finally understand or appreciate whatever it is about them that's so great. I'm not really knocking experience; I'm pretty sure my opinions and tastes WILL change a great deal over time. I guess I should say what I really don't like about the "when you're older, you'll appreciate it more" argument is that most of the time my current complaints are written off and I'm simply told that I just need to read the book again in 20-40 years and I'll see the light. I don't think that's happened here in this discussion, but I've had a number of arguments with English teachers that went that way.

Mia wrote: "I don't know what to say except that I can not be a part of of any group who would vote such as these into the top spots. It's the ever that's killing me ... above To Kill a Mockingbird ... Of Mice and Men ... Great Expectations ... The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn ..."

Well, you could abandon Listopia and Goodreads altogether if you really wanted to. Or you could stick around, vote your own opinion, and change the dynamics of the group. You know, a group never gets anymore diverse if everyone who disagrees with the opinions of the current majority just up and leaves.

Re "when you're older." Yes, totally irritating and patronizing (and it doesn't help matters any when it turns out to be right.) In my teaching, I've tried to say the same thing, but focus on the validity of current perception - something along the lines of "I see your point. You may find your views change - or they may not."

I guess there are things you can't really understand unless you go through them. Some life-changing experiences cannot be described with words (becoming a parent or a leader, or on the other hand, losing a child or becoming homeless, killing someone or surviving a crime, etc...). Some things like irony or sarcasm lose their impact if you have to explain them. They're better expressed through innuendos, double-entendres, metaphors,... It's not that you necessarily become wiser as you grow older (the world is full of 70-year-old morons) but as Karl said it's about acquiring perspective. Context is very important in understanding any issue and the younger you are, the less "material" you have at your disposal to recreate the contexts of what you read.
I often tell people who ask me about Watchmen that they can't understand it if they haven't lived during the cold war. Which is kind of presumptuous actually since I was only 13 years old when I read it for the first time in the mid 80s and wasn't really sensitive to all the political paranoia of that time. I knew that Watchmen had "killed" me because I couldn't read any other comic after that without feeling it was crap compared to Alan Moore's work but I didn't really understand why. It's only retrospectively that, by drawing on the memories of that time, I later realized how powerful and rich that comic was.
And feeling that you're mature enough to understand something that eluded you before can also be a very satisfying sensation. It took me pretty much nearly a decade to understand what 2001, A Space Odyssey was about. But when that "Eureka" moment arrived, I felt better both about myself and about that book/film which I used to hate and now admire.
So, who knows, maybe in 20 years I'll have the courage to tackle those Twilight books!

how odd twilght seems to be at the top of both the best book of all time list and the worst book of all time....