Comments on Best Books Ever - page 41

rihgt now i haven't voted for anything but i hate it when others bash peoples favorites and get mad when theirs is bashed.

Twilight should NOT be up here...

Rilly *procrastinator and proud* wrote: "Twilight should NOT be up here..."

... I don't know why I try. :'(

Allison wrote: "Rilly *procrastinator and proud* wrote: "Twilight should NOT be up here..."

... I don't know why I try. :'("

Because you don't understand the problem. Twilight really shouldn't be up there if the list's title is "best books ever". People will keep making that kind of comment as long as they see Twilight as "best book ever" in a world where you have authors like Faulkner, Kafka, Beckett, Hemingway, etc...
You can't blame people for reacting the way they do. It's not really about "bashing" Twilight, it's about voicing outrage at a list that does not meet expectations.
I myself am not particularly fond of reading "classics" (I never read "In Cold Blood" or James Joyce's "Ulysses", Fitzgerald's "Great Gatsby" and Flaubert's "Madame Bovary" bore me to freaking death, and I'm not interested in reading any famous book just because they're famous), I'm more a sci-fi and comics kinda guy, but even I understand the outrage of the Twilight "bashers". It's like spotting a "best movies ever" list, hoping that you'll learn something, and discovering that the top spots are full of Transformers, Twilights, and Harry Potters, when you're expecting a Kubrick, a Chaplin or at least a Scorsese film.
Just let people make their comments. They're justified.

As of today, the top 7 are all Stephanie Meyer or JK Rowling. Perhaps the list should be renamed:

Best. Books. EVERRR!!!!!!!!!

people are justified in their comments. its a book they've read and they comment on it.i haven't read anything famous. i love to read old time westerns aand murders and mystery books. i have read dean knootz alot and john grisham but it's what i like and if they were up there i would comment on them but let people have their comments and don't agure with them about what they post.

Perhaps people could put how many books they have read in total and 4 - 6 examples of titles they have read to go along with their comments. That way it would be easy to tell if they are a thoughtful, discriminating reader or if they are just happy to dip a toe in the water and call it swimming. If you think Twilight is the best book ever your opinion is undeniably stupid because your position is indefensible. Blood Meridian, Sense of an Ending, Heart of the Sea, Tortilla Flats

good books the only one i haven't read is tortilla flats. but you are right it would see if you are a thoughtful reader or a person who just wants to get in the pot.

Joshua wrote: "good books the only one i haven't read is tortilla flats. but you are right it would see if you are a thoughtful reader or a person who just wants to get in the pot." it's great, I can recommend it, a glimpse into the lives of monetarily poor, spiritually rich Mexicans. I just felt like after that comment I should put the last 4 books I read

i thinks i might read it. it sounds pretty good i might check it out thanks.

What we really need is a Best Fantasy Books list, best classic books list, Best Teen Books list, and so on. This is just too broad of a category.

Bill wrote: "Allison wrote: "Rilly *procrastinator and proud* wrote: "Twilight should NOT be up here..."

... I don't know why I try. :'("

Because you don't understand the problem."
To me, it seems you don't understand the problem, Bill.

Of course, Allison has already explained it about a dozen times, so I wouldn't insult your intelligence by repeating her reasoning. Just go back a few pages and read those comments.

(Yep, people can say whatever they feel like. It only gets irrirating, when they try to involve other people in an argument without considering what those other people have already said. It's about reading, really.)

Just gave my vote but I think this list can't be what it pretends to be or maybe I misinterpretated what "best books ever" means. I am not however sad about that. Quality of books or other culture products can't be objectively be measured (at least in my opinion, conservative wouldn't agree). What the list actually shows is popularity. Reversely we might do recognice what taste is common. So what would interesed me is where the books i voted on are be placed. How do i find them on the long list? And what i find a little difficult is that incoherent answer to the question: how should texts, that were published in different languages and editions (maybe together with other texts), be counted? An example of that in the list is the lord of rings, where the parts are I think can be seperatedly voted on and then togehter with the hobbit.

Kalin wrote: To me, i..."

Actually, I wouldn't have minded you insulting my intelligence if it could've avoided me having to sift through 44 pages of comments to retrieve what Allison said before. I'm sorry but I just don't have the patience to do that. So, I'll just retract my comment about assuming to know what she does or doesn't understand but still insist that MY understanding of the "problem" is the correct one.
It's very simple really. It's not at all related to Twilight but, again, it has to do with the list's NAME and the EXPECTATIONS that that name generates in people. You can tell me that "best" is undefinable and that people consider their favorite books to be the best ever anyway, and therefore the list does in a way reflect the best books within the goodreads community or something on those lines, I totally understand that. But you're missing the point.
My previous comment was triggered by Allison's "bittersweet" comment about why she's "trying" when it seems people just keep complaining about Twilight being first in this list. I was just trying to explain that those people actually have a VALID REASON to complain and that those complaints aren't going anywhere as long as newcomers on Goodreads will check this list expecting to see Pulitzer and Nobel prize winners on a "best books ever" list and realizing that the top spots are full of "commercial products" instead.
Now, was that enough "reading" for you, Kalin?

Reality check, people!! Maggie Stiefvator's book Shiver takes the cake.

And Scott Westerfeld's Uglies series are very good also.

they are ok.

Adddd MAXIMUM RIDE the series1-8 , and STRANGER WITH MY FACE- BY LOIS DUNCAN ! ALSO ?????.... HMM???.....

Also scott westerfeld uglies pretties specials extras
And Aluaon noel immortals and riley bloom series

OMG- I just noticed Frances wrote the uglies series i didnt look uo at the screen just typed that in

Bill wrote: "Because you don't understand the problem. Twilight really shouldn't be up there if the list's title is "best books ever". People will keep making that kind of comment as long as they see Twilight as "best book ever" in a world where you have authors like Faulkner, Kafka, Beckett, Hemingway, etc...

I completely understand that "problem". I just completely disagree that it is a problem and that people have any right to be complaining about it. The implication made by many of the commenters who drop through here is that somehow books by authors like Hemingway should be universally considered "better" by the general public, and if you disagree... if you believe some OTHER book to be better, then you're a) not well read, b) just plain stupid, c) too young to understand, d) you can't read a book correctly to be able to appreciate it, e) all of the above, etc.

This is a public list voted on by a diverse community of readers. If your expectations are for something "objective" based on "universal standards of good literature" (If such things even exist), then go to something like the Pulitzer Prize webpage.

It's very simple really. It's not at all related to Twilight but, again, it has to do with the list's NAME and the EXPECTATIONS that that name generates in people.

Well, if you pop into Listopia and find the "Best Books Ever" list and expect to see the same kind of list that English Majors in some fancy intellectual book community are putting out.... well yeah no wonder your expectations aren't met. So no, I don't believe people whose "expectations" aren't met have a valid reason to complain.

And I agree, the debate itself (from both my side and your side) actually doesn't have much to do with Twilight. I didn't even vote for Twilight. I just believe that people have a right to their own opinion on goodreads without someone bashing their intelligence, reading level, or age.

It's like spotting a "best movies ever" list, hoping that you'll learn something, and discovering that the top spots are full of Transformers, Twilights, and Harry Potters, when you're expecting a Kubrick, a Chaplin or at least a Scorsese film.

Annndd.... I feel the exact same way about films, so your comparison is completely lost on me.

Actually, I wouldn't have minded you insulting my intelligence if it could've avoided me having to sift through 44 pages of comments to retrieve what Allison said before. I'm sorry but I just don't have the patience to do that.

I don't really blame you in the least. But to be fair, I didn't start talking about this until page 41, so it's more like five pages... Not that I expect you to go through them. I know you have better things to do than argue with fellow book-lovers on goodreads. I do too.

Samara wrote: "OMG- I just noticed Frances wrote the uglies series i didnt look uo at the screen just typed that in"

I think you had it right the first time, Scott Westerfeld wrote the Uglies series. :D

Bill wrote: "... Now, was that enough "reading" for you, Kalin?"
Is there such a thing as "enough reading" ever, Bill? :)

A few comments below yours, Allison has given you a response that comes very close to my own understanding of the issue. I won't reiterate her thoughts. Let me just reinforce one point in them:

You seem to be relying on "authorities" such as the Pulitzers and Noble Prizes. Do you assume, then, that their judgment - which in fact is based on the opinions of a very small group of people, the members of the respective prize committees - is more representative than the collective judgment of a readers' community several hundred thousands strong?

This is an interesting question, in light of how we assign values to intrinsically subjective phenomena, like works of culture.

P.S. In one of those previous comments you didn't feel like reading :P, I've written about my suggestion to the creator of this list to rename it to Our Favorite Books or something similar. If you had read it, you'd see that you and I actually share quite a lot of common ground.

Kalin wrote: "Allison, are we the only two lurkers left? Erm, sorry, I meant "people who read what other people write"?"

It certainly appears so. There are very few people I see more than once. I've taken to checking this page periodically... I don't know whether I'm trying to torture myself or I just find the redundancy around here amusing.

@Allison:

I keep coming here because, sooner or later, another kindred soul will show up. Which is a WIN, any time. :) But you're right, there's great (and unsuspected) fun in reading the same comment again and again and again... :D

Allison & Kalin,
These comments above are quoted from you guys. I'm not here to antagonize anyone but if you want your arguments to have any credibility, please don't contradict yourself. It's either "fun" or "irritating" to read the redundancy of the comments, and you either "have better things to do" or "try to torture yourself" (not that there's anything wrong with that).
Bottom line is: whether I'm right or you're right, I believe the Twilight haters will keep coming whether you like or not. I have explained why twice before and am not going to do it again. I was just trying to get you to "get over it". But if you're so bent on defending what I personnally consider to be a lost cause... hey, good for you!
Just to get back on the subject of books: No, I don't consider Pulitzer and Nobel winners books to be better than "commercial" ones. If you had paid attention to my first reply to Allison, you might've noticed that I borderline loathe anything that doesn't entertain me. I'm just saying that the complaints about Twilight are proof that there's a general perception that books that have received some kind of official recognition should be considered "superior" (I'm using that word since we're talking about a list, therefore taking into account the notion of "ranking") to books that seem to mainly have a commercial purpose.
The keyword is "perception". That's why the title of the list, "best book ever", is MISLEADING. And that's why I think you'll keep "wondering why you try".
Oh, and Allison, the correct answer for me is d) I can't read a book correctly to be able to appreciate it.

C'mon Tolkien.... You're no.1 to me :D

I officially give up on the list because if twilight's there, then I have some issues with where society is going.

Bill wrote: "These comments above are quoted from you guys. I'm not here to antagonize anyone but if you want your arguments to have any credibility, please don't contradict yourself. It's either "fun" or "irritating" to read the redundancy of the comments, and you either "have better things to do" or "try to torture yourself" (not that there's anything wrong with that)."

Yup. I said those things. I don't really see how you find it contradictory though. After all, I said that I hadn't decided whether it was amusing or whether I was trying to torture myself. As it is now, it's not either "fun" or "irritating" (why do you feel it must be restricted to either?), it's still both at times. I'd also say the "irritating" part of it is just mild annoyance. For the most part, I'd say I've had more fun than not. Even when it's not fun, it's more a joke than real exasperation when I say things like "I don't know why I try" and "I'm torturing myself!"

Of course I have better things to do. I know I do. Doesn't mean I'm going to do them right now. ;D Even though I know there are better things to do, I don't think of having discussions or arguments like this as a complete waste of time. It's a good opportunity to learn and practice how to present my arguments, write and express myself well, and listen to the opinions and arguments of others.

Bottom line is: whether I'm right or you're right, I believe the Twilight haters will keep coming whether you like or not.

I have no doubt.

I was just trying to get you to "get over it". But if you're so bent on defending what I personnally consider to be a lost cause... hey, good for you!

I know I'm probably "bent on defending a lost cause", and it's doubtful anybody will change their mind from reading my comments. But I don't think it's not worth it. I'll "get over it" on my own time.

Bill Wrote: " Twilight really shouldn't be up there if the list's title is "best books ever". People will keep making that kind of comment as long as they see Twilight as "best book ever" in a world where you have authors like Faulkner, Kafka, Beckett, Hemingway, etc..."

Bill Wrote: "No, I don't consider Pulitzer and Nobel winners books to be better than "commercial" ones. If you had paid attention to my first reply to Allison, you might've noticed that I borderline loathe anything that doesn't entertain me."

Bill Wrote: "Oh, and Allison, the correct answer for me is d) I can't read a book correctly to be able to appreciate it."

Correct me if I am misinterpreting, but while you say you have little love for the classics yourself, you chose one of my "options" for why someone doesn't think the classics are great (Options which were my presentation of the arguments I believe to be logically flawed and completely invalid) and in your original post said that Twilight doesn't belong on a "best books ever" list in a world with classic authors. It seems to me, that on some level you do believe the classics to be better than commercial products, even if you don't personally enjoy many yourself. Is that correct?

Bill Wrote: "I'm just saying that the complaints about Twilight are proof that there's a general perception that books that have received some kind of official recognition should be considered "superior" (I'm using that word since we're talking about a list, therefore taking into account the notion of "ranking") to books that seem to mainly have a commercial purpose.

The keyword is "perception". That's why the title of the list, "best book ever", is MISLEADING. And that's why I think you'll keep "wondering why you try"."

The way I understood it, you were saying their complaints were valid in your first two posts. I don't believe they're valid. I don't believe that just because a person's expectations weren't met (or because their own favorites are back-paged) that it gives them any right to bash the intelligence, age, and reading ability of the list's voters. I don't believe that it's perfectly logical for people to assume that "best books ever" MUST mean great English classics. "Best Books Ever" isn't misleading more than it's just subjective. I agree with Kalin, that a more accurate title would be something that admits it's subjective like "Our Favorite Books", but even then we'd probably have people saying the exact same things. Certainly somebody's gonna be mad because their expectations weren't met, ya know? They expected to see everyone singing the praises of their favorite books, or at least the "universally" considered superior books that have won awards. Or they see exactly what they expected to see and don't like it. Then, when they go tromping around the comments saying these nasty things to people whose only crime was to vote for their favorite book, am I allowed to attempt to defend these voters or are their complaints still valid?

Allison wrote: "I don't think of having discussions or arguments like this as a complete waste of time. It's a good opportunity to learn and practice how to present my arguments, write and express myself well, and listen to the opinions and arguments of others "..."

Cool.

Correct me if I am misinterpreting, ...It seems to me, that on some level you do believe the classics to be better than commercial products, even if you don't personally enjoy many yourself. Is that correct?

Can I say "more or less"? ;p
Otherwise, I'll have to admit that I'm not immune to contradicting myself. But here's the thing: when I say Twilight shouldn't be up there, I'm not talking about my personal tastes (although I do think there are much better books than Twilight), I'm saying that its presence as n°1 contradicts the name of the list in most people's minds. I would've said the same thing if Da Vinci Code or Hunger Games were n°1. Doesn't mean that I'd rather read Dostoyevsky than Dan Brown. My own n°1 is a comic book! (Watchmen) But it would bother me to see it ranked above books like The Odyssey or The Divine Comedy who are supposed to have influenced centuries of writers. I think we all agree that the list should be renamed. So, as long as the word "best" is in the title, yes I'll admit that on some level I do share that general perception I was talking about in my previous comment even though I don't enjoy reading the "better" books.

I don't believe that just because a person's expectations weren't met (or because their own favorites are back-paged) that it gives them any right to bash the intelligence, age, and reading ability of the list's voters...Then, when they go tromping around the comments saying these nasty things to people whose only crime was to vote for their favorite book, am I allowed to attempt to defend these voters or are their complaints still valid?

Allright, I get it. What really bothers you are the attacks and insults, not so much the Twilight bashing. I guess if there's an assault, there should be some kind of defense. It just seemed to me like the insistence with which you systematically told people that they "shouldn't assume" this or that was a tad patronizing, and when you said "I don't know why I try", I felt like trying to tell you it was pointless.

I'll "get over it" on my own time

OK! :)

Now, let me try something...
[image error]
Alisuuuun and Kalin
You provooouke my thinkin'
Oh, how I luuuuv' debatin'
with Alisuuuuun and Kalin

Oh, cool, it works!

It's funny how worked-up people are getting over a list with such a fanpersonish title.

"Best books EVAR, you guys."

I wouldn't be surprised if the REAL best book ever was lost forever when the Library of Alexandria was destroyed.

Phil wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if the REAL best book ever was lost forever when the Library of Alexandria was destroyed. "

Yes, I believe it was called "Crepusculum".

Bill wrote: "Phil wrote: I wouldn't be surprised if the REAL best book ever was lost forever when the Library of Alexandria was destroyed. "

Yes, I believe it was called "Crepusculum"."

Ba dum tssshhh! :-)

I can list ninety-nine reasons why, off of the top of my head, twilight should NOT be on the list.

can't anybody just get along for one minute. everybody is fighting just cool your jets and talk like people who get along. just looking at all the agruments make my head hurt.
people get along.

Alright so, if all art is subjective (and writing is an art), ergo

Bach is no better than Beiber
Starry Night is no better than Velvet Elvis
Hamlet is no better than Twilight

So, ipso facto, Twilight is the Best Book Ever (along with every other book ever written 'cause someone must have liked it if only the author's mother).

@Maxine I don't even know whether you're being sarcastic or not. o.o However, you're scaring me.

Joshua, I'm sorry (since I kinda started it) but, although I'd need confirmation from Allison and Kalin, I can assure you we're not fighting. It's just a discussion with different points of views. No fight here, buddy.

Lizzy wrote: "@Maxine I don't even know whether you're being sarcastic or not. o.o However, you're scaring me."

Actually, I was going for ironic but sarcastic/scary works too.

Oh, thanks, I really was getting sort of scared

anyhow, some of the great classics like House of Leaves or If on a Winter's Night a Traveler should be up on top.

Ohhh ha haa right SORRY I meant to say Scott Westerfeld wrote the uglies series not Frances I meant Frances posted that- I agree
Thx Alisson - my bad - a mistake :0 :) : } :D :P

Joshua, I ditto Bill. We're having a good discussion involving different points of view. I apologize if I've appeared to talk like a person who can't get along with others (I undoubtably have at some point during this discussion, though it's never been my intention to hurt or put anyone down).

Bill Wrote: "...So, as long as the word "best" is in the title, yes I'll admit that on some level I do share that general perception I was talking about in my previous comment even though I don't enjoy reading the "better" books."

I think I can understand that point of view, though I don't personally agree. I don't really believe that classics deserve some level of universal recognition that they're "better" from all readers because of whatever merit or influence they've achieved.

Bill Wrote: "Allright, I get it. What really bothers you are the attacks and insults, not so much the Twilight bashing."

Yes, that's it. I don't really care much what people think of Twilight, but insults, nasty stereotypes, and attacks made on people don't really sit well with me.

Bill Wrote: "I guess if there's an assault, there should be some kind of defense. It just seemed to me like the insistence with which you systematically told people that they "shouldn't assume" this or that was a tad patronizing, and when you said "I don't know why I try", I felt like trying to tell you it was pointless."

I'll admit it, I do sound patronizing at times. That's one of the reasons I think I need to practice having intelligent discussions, cause the intentions and emotions in my mind when I write are hardly ever the way they're read. I still need to learn how to express my opinion and present my argument without looking as though I'm talking down to or trying to hurt others.

Bill Wrote:
"Alisuuuun and Kalin
You provooouke my thinkin'
Oh, how I luuuuv' debatin'
with Alisuuuuun and Kalin"

....

....

.....okaaayy... well that was random. But it made me smile. :D

Samara wrote: "Ohhh ha haa right SORRY I meant to say Scott Westerfeld wrote the uglies series not Frances I meant Frances posted that- I agree
Thx Alisson - my bad - a mistake :0 :) : } :D :P"

Oh okay... I was a little confused. :D

I've only read the first book of the Uglies series, but I enjoyed it pretty well and I'm planning on reading the rest.

Allison wrote: ".....okaaayy... well that was random. But it made me smile. :D "

I didn't understand how you put the italics until I saw the "some html is ok" thing. So when I saw that, the little geek in me wanted to see if I could insert an animated gif in there... Glad it made you smile :) (the song WAS kinda random though, yeah)

Ok, I am still voting since it is a huge list. But, I just cannot believe that such classics as Dostoevsky, Markes, Hugo or H.James (and many others) are rated below Twilight and Harry Potter stories (with all due respect to their authors and fans of both sagas)...
I mean we are talking about best books ever and these (though exciting and captivating) are hardly what one could call a qualitative literature.

Bill & Allison:

It's definitely more fun. :D

(If you could only see my smirk when I got to the poem. Still, the editor inside me nags: But if 'Kalin' has its stress on the second syllable, how would a body sing that?)

Phil:

"fanpersonish" (nice PC language, btw :) is the word to go. Wish I had thought of it.

Bill wrote: "I didn't understand how you put the italics until I saw the "some html is ok" thing. So when I saw that, the little..."

It was funny. I didn't know you could add animated pictures too. The little geek in me isn't really vocal enough for me to want to try.

Kalin Wrote: "(If you could only see my smirk when I got to the poem. Still, the editor inside me nags: But if 'Kalin' has its stress on the second syllable, how would a body sing that?)"

.... practice?

U guys write TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO MUCH im not reading vanything but somthing sooo short im mis enable this thing!a

Yah the uglies series is awsome i only read up to the second

has anyone read inheritence by christopher paolini??
need some good reviews

i have heard that it is good.
try it you might just like it.

The Hunger Games is one of the best, definitely.