J.C.’s Comments (group member since Apr 07, 2023)

J.C.’s comments from the Language Learners and Polyglots group.

Berengaria wrote: "J.C. wrote: "no one has mentioned the Celtic languages yet"

Welsh I like the sound of, too.

When I speak it, though, I can always hear my American accent behind the words and that rather ruins i..."
That sounds really complicated, Berengaria! Maybe Welsh from South Wales is easier (that's where I'm from, of course!). Just go along with the song!
Actually, when I think of it, South Walian speakers of English tend to reduce things to one syllable anyway! My brother Ian lived there for a while as an adult and they reduced his name to "I" ("Ee"!).

Berengaria wrote: "Peter wrote: "Are there languages that have a pleasant or unpleasant sound? Is this perception a question of individum or does it prevail in larger groups?"

Americans *heavily* stereotype language..."

I've heard Xhosa once, Berengaria - but failed completely to be able to even hear the complexity of it. I loved your summing-up of languages! I'm still reading "Long Live Latin" - I just love it! So I'm the nerd who lives in the closet!

I think there are many factors in play. Unfamiliarity with language and culture has a huge effect. For me it would be impossible to interpret intonations in Chinese, for example. Then, as people have said, there is the attitude of one's country or community to the language. German sounds rough and guttural when Nazi officers use it in films, but in poetry and song - sublime! And when my German friend speaks it, it sounds gentle. Every time I see a hymn title in church given in German, I immediately want to read and speak it aloud in the original.
"Seit stille, und erkennt, dass ich Gott bin." !! ( I couldn't get the symbol for double 's'). Or what about the Erlkönig?
"Wer reitet so spät durch Nacht und Wind?" It makes me shiver every time I hear or read it.
I tried to learn Russian for the literature, but also because I found that the sounds answered something deep in me - I loved the sounds, for example of хлеб, for bread, and мир, the world.
I began to teach myself French when I was quite young, loving the beauty of the sounds slipping from my tongue - but take a coarse speaker and the sounds become altered with the voice, tone, vocabulary, sentiments expressed, the whole lot.
No one has mentioned the Celtic languages yet. Welsh feels natural to me even though I am not a native speaker, because I was born and brought up in Wales with my maternal family. I love the singing quality of it. Then, in University, I took to the Dorrick (in Aberdeen), which was not only near my father's home but was, I discovered later, where the paternal side had lived in the seventeen hundreds and probably before. So I think instinct and genetic structure work too! I have lived among Scottish Gaelic speakers for over forty years, but have never felt the same kinship for Gaelic, the sounds of which, again, vary with each community and speaker.
I haven't mentioned English yet - it's such a hybrid! But I used to love hearing Received Pronunciation!

Peter wrote: "I am currently reading Umberto Eco's The Island of the Day Before. The action is situated in the 17th century. in chapter 21 a clergyman states that the German language must be the tru..."
I'd like to think about that one, Peter! (Might take me a while . . .)

Berengaria, thanks for your comment. I think I just imagined I could swallow language and regurgitate it! I didn't start learning it early enough (the time factor). The Croatian people we have met seem delighted that I am trying - I think most British tourists don't bother. When people have spoken to me they do speak slowly and then say it in English. They learn English in school. It may be an age thing with me, that I have to work a bit harder!

I am in Croatia for a few days for a wedding, and have found that much of the Croatian I have been cramming is deserting me in speaking to people!

Ivy-Mabel wrote: "Hi Peter: On the subject of Latin (which I also learnt for seven years), did you ever see the chap on German TV who taught it? I enjoyed the lessons (although he moved fast) but what surprised me m..."

I've just started reading "Long Live Latin" by the Italian Nicola Gardini, translated into English by Todd Portnowitz. Jovial reading so far, including what appears to be the translation of "divas" as "divers"! But then I don't know any Italian . . .

Peter wrote: "The discussion has gone silent for more than a week, so let me throw in a problem that I have with translation. Currently I am reading the Step (Степь) by Anton Chekhov in German translation. I hav..."
Oh, definitely, Peter, in the "Montaigne" group. I've mentioned there that it is possible to read the original intuitively. I'm reading Montaigne in an edited version of the original, and am not comparing translations with the text, as some people are doing, and we've discussed translations that ring a false note - possibly overworked, I think, because one can so easily lose that intuition.

Berengaria wrote: "J.C. wrote: "Can I have a bit of fun with gobbledygook?
"I would of done better if I could of" !"

There is a reading test where they ask you to find all the letter f in a text. Most people won't c..."

Thanks for those, Berengaria - language is hugely entertaining!!

Can I have a bit of fun with gobbledygook?
"I would of done better if I could of" !
There are more, but that's a very common one.

Of course language changes verbally all the time, but it's funny when an expression changes its meaning completely.
The Radio Times had a nice piece recently about expressions such as "bull in a china shop" becoming "bowl in a china shop" (bowls might possibly behave and be quite at home in a china shop, while a bull would not!).
Another one they gave was "It's a dog-eat-dog world" becoming "It's a doggie-dog world" (?!).
Not quite the same thing, I know. But the first example does show an absurdity of syntax.

Peter wrote: "@Berengaria Well Döner! Congratulations! This made me think of the longest foreign language book I’ve ever read. I guess it is “The Order of the Phoenix” out fo the Harry Potter series. Or “Ogniem ..."

I'm re-reading "Quo Vadis" just now, Peter (in English translation) - from the days of my youth - thanks for mentioning the trilogy.

Berengaria wrote: "Woo hoooo! I just finished up the LONGEST novel I've ever read in Swedish - some 300+ pages. Took me about 3 weeks/1 month but I got there in the end!

It also was a very good novel. Never transla..."
Congratulations, Berengaria!

Berengaria wrote: "J.C. wrote: "I must share a triumph from work just now! I work for Citizens' Advice (since I retired from teaching) and, rather than wait an hour to get through to Personal Independence Payment for..."

Thank you so much, Berengaria! A personal achievement as I approach retirement.

Ivy-Mabel wrote: "Well done J.C.!! That was a real feat!"
Diolch, Ivy-Mabel!

I must share a triumph from work just now! I work for Citizens' Advice (since I retired from teaching) and, rather than wait an hour to get through to Personal Independence Payment for my client, I chose the Welsh option, got through straightaway and managed to ask for what the client needed! I was so chuffed I did actually jump up and down!!
Let's hear it for language learning ! Now, this afternoon's client needs to pay her TV Licence - will they answer the phone quickly, I wonder . . .

Yes, I know the Monty Python scene well, Peter - thanks for the link!
What I meant was that when Julius Caesar came to Britain he is supposed to have said, "Veni, vidi, vici" or (weeny, weedy, weaky!).
I have spent a holiday at Vindolanda and was well impressed. If you are ever tutoring a child in Latin, do try "Minimus" by Barbara Bell (Cambridge). It's based on the story of a real family who lived at Vindolanda (or even Windowlanda).

I loved all this discussion and will trey to comment properly at some point (Berengaria, thanks for your kind remarks!). But Peter, if you'd read "1066 and all that" (which I recommend!) you'd know that the Romans didn't do much for us in Britain because they were weeny, weedy and weaky. Next time someone says, "look what the Romans did for us" you'll know what to say!

I have to confess I was a teacher too, Ivy-Mabel! Thank you for your message. "Me and you" have that in common!!

Interesting, Berengaria! I could relate to a lot of this. I am really only fluent in one other language, French, and I did have a French boyfriend for a couple of years when I was young! So I found it fascinating that he emphasised the importance of emotional involvement. The creativity side made me think as well. Although I am in a class for my Welsh learning, I am creative in my response to what I am taught and I will seek or create opportunities to use it. I do tend to get a bit fixated on grammar, though, because I love the way languages work. I suppose that for me it could count as a goal, per se.
As I have hinted before, a big motivator for me is connecting with people, but, as Olly said, conversation is not at the level attained when reading. I have just listened for the third time (I think) to the former Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, who is a polyglot, delivering one of the Reith lectures, in English and then in Welsh. At last I have the words for "society" and "social" in my head and they mean something, other than being listed in the vocabulary for Unit 12! The next step is to see if I can get a transcript of the speech and study it.
I enjoyed the video clip - thank you for posting the link.

Berengaria wrote: "J.C. wrote: "Berengaria, thank you for your supportive comments! I didn't know about it being a common thing "

That's fantastic that you have both a Welsh speaker and native French speaker on the ..."
Berengaria, I'm so sorry to hear you were twice treated badly in shops! Thinking about it, that feeling of 'belonging' might depend on a number of things, one of which is genuine interaction with someone that geos beyond the asking for directions or whatever, and also being on one's own. In Romania my daughter and son-in-law sat together on a coach while I sat beside a Romanian lady with whom I would say I built up a brief but valuable relationship, enhanced by our complete inability to do 'small talk' with each other but where we managed to exchange meaningful information about our lives. I still remember her with affection, several years on. If you like, I see 'belonging' as more with people than in their country. If learning language enables that sort of bonding, then for me the spoken part is very important. One or two people in the shops where we stay in Wales will definitely remember me (!!) when I go back in September, for what we shared of ourselves.
One of the many joys of language learning.
By the way, I started learning Russian in order to read the poetry! But I did have at the time friends here who could teach me - the man was part Ukrainian/part Byelorus. Again, people made the difference.
I see poetry as in a different league!