Berengaria’s Comments (group member since Nov 11, 2021)

Berengaria’s comments from the Language Learners and Polyglots group.

Peter wrote: "@Berengaria: Furthermore there are courses on Youtube and old textbooks that can be accessed for free. The main question is pronounciation as there are some differences between the speakers in US and those you preserved the old Eastern European way...."

@Peter. That's not what I was referring to exactly. Of course, textbooks are going to be available. No question. And small efforts by individuals with YouTube or TikTok channels. Yes, of course. That's a given for most languages, even modern Icelandic, as spotty as it is.

No, what I mean is anything like the variety of support materials that are available for major European languages.

Easy readers, grammar workbooks, "Test Yourself" quizzes, CDs of songs for learners, games, crossword puzzles, short films for learners, online grammar tests, vocabulary workbooks.

Things like that.

When I looked into Yiddish a while back, almost nothing like that existed. Things change rapidly, but many of the endangered languages severely lack those types of ancillary products because companies can't make enough profit off them.

That's a good point, Jeanne...

DISCUSSION TOPIC:

We're all reading in our languages which is great. You only increase vocabulary, reinforce good grammar and gain an appreciation for "natural" sounding language through reading. Nothing else compares.

But to have the motivation to continue learning, you need a strong goal.

Speaking has always been the most famous and talked about one. We often ask "what languages do you speak?" as if speaking is the end all, be all, goal everyone has for learning a foreign language.

But is that true?

In our internet day and age, are perhaps reading and writing in other languages superseding speaking as the most valuable and most used skills? Think of social media posts, messaging, chat forums, etc.

How much more often do you use those skills than speak?

And do you have some languages you WANT to speak (that's the specific goal), whereas others, you might primarily want to be able to read/write or simply understand (and maybe speak a little)?

J.C. wrote: "Berengaria, thank you for your detailed response. I knew something of what you say from seeing your posts for a long time on my brother Ian's reviews. Mae'n dda i gwrdd â chi yma! As you say, lots ..."

I'm doing modern Icelandic, nothing to do with the Vikings. (Yes, they tell you they are sort of mutually intelligible, but mostly only for educated native speakers, not for learners. It's like the happy myth that all Scandinavians can understand each other -- they can't.)

I'd imagine there is more available for the old Norse stuff since it makes up part of a number of archaeology and history degrees. That's always a plus!

I did use to mix up some basic Dutch and Danish words. I think that was because I was learning them both at the same time and kind of shoddily way back when before I really knew what I was doing re: language acquisition.

Because I've lived in a German speaking environment for so long, I have a tendency now to confuse German words for English! I normally get caught on those because other native English speakers don't know what I'm talking about! 😂

I can fully understand mixing up Gaelic with Welsh. Especially when speaking.

J.C. wrote: "Old Norse/Icelandic got off to a good start (for a book I was writing) "

Icelandic is one of my languages! But being that it is such a seldom taught language, I've found there are very few ancillary materials available for the independent student in either English or German. (You can find textbooks, but graded readers or grammar workbooks are very rare to non-existent)

That really puts a damper on how fast/well you can teach yourself! I'm still only a starter A2 now after about two years.

Diolch byth that the Welsh government have been pouring money into Welsh for their 2050 scheme and there are a number of good services/products for learners of Welsh now!

It's a lot harder for people like me to access much of the stuff when I don't live in the UK and esp now after Brexit - but at least it exists!

Peter, you must be having a similar problem with finding materials for Yiddish?

Afrikaans and Yiddish are on my list to get to after Icelandic. I'm aiming at being a lay expert in the Germanic languages, so when I have those plus my German, Dutch, Danish, Swedish and Norwegian, I figure it will be enough to get a rounded picture of the family! 🥋
(Yes, there are other Germanics, but they have an even smaller speaking population than Icelandic.)

Ivy-Mabel wrote: "Is the aim of the group to read books in six foreign languages? I could manage 4 reasonably easily but the other two would take the rest of my life!!!."

No, that's just for show offs like Peter and myself. 🐱‍🏍😉

The aim of the group is simply to encourage yourself to engage with your languages through reading more than you usually would in them. If you have 1 foreign language or 27, doesn't matter. If you're reading a book meant for 3-year olds or a Booker Prize winner, doesn't matter.

The aim is simply engagement.

If you like, you can let us know what you're reading and in what language and how it's going for you.

Peter's hosting this year, and he's decided not to ask anybody to set a goal. Some of us already have, but that's a personal thing. Not required.

Peter wrote: "Wow. I hoped there will be some reaction, but did not expect it to be that quick. "

Rod and I are the only ones who have continued on our own and I think we're the most interested.

So nice that you're able to get the boekenweeksgeschenk! I'm kinda envious there although this year Dutch isn't on my plate. 😁

Do you know which languages you want to do the 6 in, or are you flexible?

Sportyrod wrote: "Hi"

You can do it, Rod! We have faith in you that you can conquer another in svenska and get on board with Indonesian! 🐱‍🏍

Peter wrote: "I am starting off with my current reading. Today I finished a bocklet of Polish poetry title "Fantasmagoria" by Sylwia Łukomska-Zijlstra (I asked GR librarian friend to create it). It seems the aut..."

Hey Peter, I've responded over on the new chat you set up! Shall we move it all over there?

Hi everybody!

I'm doing my personal foreign language reading challenge again this year.

I've flexibly set my 12 book goal for the year as follows and am currently WAY ahead of schedule:
🐉 4 in Swedish ✅ ✅✅✅✅ 💯
🐉 3 in Spanish ✅
🐉 2 in Welsh ✅
🐉 at least 2 in French ✅
🐉 at least 1 in Italian ✅💯

I'm currently reading another novel in Swedish - so really going over the goal line there - and am feeling a pull to read more in Italian.

I'm not feeling Spanish very much, but I have too many novels in Spanish on my shelves and some clearing needs to be done. Hm. 🧐

Anybody have any tips? What do you do when the books in a particular language have reached a high limit but you don't feel like interacting with that particular one (yet)?

Hey Peter!

I'm very touched that another person enjoyed the group last year. I saw you were reading something in Dutch at the moment which you got from a friend in the Netherlands. Geweldig!

HI EVERYBODY!

Thank you for participating in the Foreign Language Reading Challenge 2022!

I hope this little challenge has encouraged you to make time - at least a little time - for other languages in your reading this year and that it will continue to inspire you to improve your skills in 2023.

There doesn't seem to be much interest in continuing the chat thread, so I won't be starting a new one for next year.

This doesn't mean you can't set your own challenge...but remember, if you need/want any encouragement to keep trying, feel free to send me a private message to tell me how you're doing.

Have a great year 2023!

Your Host, Berengaria

Paul wrote: "
How about "On Ending Eddy"?"

That would also fit, I'd say, and has the alliteration. Although for me it sounds like someone's going to kill him and is thinking through their options. Which, maybe they are!

Vicky wrote: "Dear Francophone speakers, how would you translate the title "En finir avec Eddy Bellegueule"? The English translator has rendered "The End of Eddy". ..."

I agree, the translation you got doesn't quite capture it as "en finir avec" usually comes out to "breaking with," "having nothing more to do with", "stopping".

I'd suggest "Finishing with Eddy B" or "Being Done With Eddy B". Neither have the alliteration, but they would both be gerund clauses which gives the feeling of continuous action. I've noticed sometimes a translator will add a subject, so it could be something like "I'm Finished with Eddy B" or maybe "No More Eddy B."

I think it would very much depend on the genre and how exactly Eddy was put an end to, which one sounded more appropriate.

THAT WAS THE LAST ONE!!

Just finished up my last challenge book for the year! Had to change out a Dutch for a French, but it was still 12.

So:
1 in Icelandic 🏴‍☠️
2 in Italian 🏴‍☠️
4 in Dutch 🏴‍☠️
5 in French 🏴‍☠️

Completed!

Let me know how you're doing... oh and FYI, I'll be deleting this thread around January 2nd, so the time to chat is now!

Just finished up my last challenge book for Italian. Yay! It was short but really awful. (Idiotic love story) Glad I'm finished!

How is everybody else coming with their challenges? I'm interested!

*Tau* wrote: "Berengaria wrote: "I don't really mean the linked together words as much as the tiny differences in meaning that the prefixes can give. Yes, English has phrasal verbs as well, but not nearly with t..."

Perhaps we have a love for the languages we've learned, or at least a preference for them over our native language(s). Their phrasing and structure may perhaps seem more vivid because we did not grow up with them. They aren't "commonplace" but something delightfully different.

I've taught English for years so I know all the silly or awkward grammar rules (like those governing adjectives) and parts that don't make any sense (like when to use infinitive vs gerund), and of course the unforgivable spelling and pronunciation rules (or lack thereof).

Maybe it's also this viewpoint - that of a teacher having to explain all the lacks, randomness and oddities of English to learners - which has ruined a lot of English for me.

Rather like if you had to explain again and again and again that the action verb in Dutch goes to the end of the clause or the rules for where "er" goes to learners who are like "you're lying!" or "that's just totally weird, man" or "why would anybody SPEAK like that? It makes no sense."

Well, yes, in comparison to the rest of European langs, it is weird where German/Dutch puts the verbs. And why WOULD anybody speak like that? 🤷‍♂️ But you have a classful of belligerent adults starting at you with folded arms awaiting a logical, easy-to-understand answer that fits their understanding of what YOUR language should be based on THEIR native language. Which you can't give.

From that perspective, when you see all its warts, it becomes hard to like your own language.

(Mind, people here on GR have incredibly good English, for the most part, compared to the adults I taught/teach who were often struggling and didn't want to learn anyway.)

Peter wrote: "I would not be so critical about English, though, Berengaria. There are many short words which are very concise, but yes, obviously German has the famous/infamous capability of creating new words, simply by concatenating existings words like the "Hottentottenmutterattentäter""

I don't really mean the linked together words as much as the tiny differences in meaning that the prefixes can give. Yes, English has phrasal verbs as well, but not nearly with the same literal exactitude of German.

Examples:
Dienen vs bedienen. Darbieten vs anbieten. Heranfahren vs anfahren. Or even the very basic hinein and heraus. The subtle differences between these words would be challenging to render in English with any degree of naturalness.

That's what I mean. German's ability to take a verb and squeeze such a high degree of literalness out of it. English just can't compete which is why translations from German are (almost) never as vibrant or crystal clear as the original.

*Tau* wrote: "Yesterday I finally started reading my first German book ever 😄
My knowledge of this language isn't good enough to understand everything I read, although I'm often able to derive the meaning from t..."

I find that a lot as well. German is simply a richer, more expressive language, I think.

Like Dutch, it has small parts that can subtly change the meaning. English has nothing like that. It's a far more vague, generalised language into which you can interpret more.

German is VERY precise. It's difficult to be vague in German if you are speaking on an adult level. (And probs in Dutch, too)

I've tried translation (German-English) and it really is difficult to render that much compact detail into vague, time obsessed English - which in my opinion is the perfect language for only one thing: spedition.

Also, the Anglo-Saxon countries don't have a long nor strong history of translation. It's been only in the last two decades that Anglo publishers have "discovered" non-English literature. (What, there are world bestsellers that we can't sell because they're not in English? Quick! Get it in English!)

This means there are far fewer good literary translators into English than you'd expect. The market simply hasn't been around long enough to achieve an overall high standard. It really depends.

Congrats though on trying German for the first time! Hope you enjoy the novel, too.

Iamthesword wrote: "11/11: Annie Ernaux - Le jeune homme
Fresh from the printing presses after the French bought every book of her after the announcement of the Nobel prize. It's very short (only 40 pages) and therefo..."

Hurrah on another one! 👏 You've got 2 and a half months left. Plenty of time. And I heard that the French went wild at the news of her Nobel win, so can well imagine that bookshops were cleaned out for a bit.

Jane wrote: "Finished Die Toten von Vindobona by Alex Wagner, murder mystery set in Roman Vienna. Bloody and unsettling."

Glückwunsch! Got another one for your challenge. 👏 That makes...4 in German this year for you, I think?