Traveller’s Comments (group member since Apr 18, 2013)

Traveller’s comments from the The Transition Movement group.

Ted wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Thanks, Ted. The part of the debate that I would perhaps like us to have a look at, is climate change/global warming and exactly what our most up to date models ..."

Sorry it's t..."

Thanks for the reply, Ted! I do, in fact own Silver's book. Been a bit too busy for environmental reading lately, but thanks to you, am starting up again this weekend..-including the book under discussion, of course!

Melissa wrote: "To Traveller's comment, I have a few objections. I don't think it's 'humanity' who is not not taking this whole climate change thing seriously enough. It's hard to point fingers at ourselves, but..."

Ah, I never meant to imply that reforestation isn't useful, and I must admit that I have not checked to see if reforestation efforts are matching deforestation activities, but do keep in mind that it is much quicker to cut down a tree than it is to grow one! One of the frustrating things in this regard, is that I know about areas in the world where trees are being cut down not only to "make space" for people, but to increase the local water levels so that dams can be fuller for human consumption and for agriculture!!! :O

I feel frustrated about so many things, don't get me started on frustrations. It is true that the US and Russia, or the ex-USSR are among the two biggest environmental cuprits, since, indeed, Europe is a lot better with their use of hydro, solar and wind electicity for domestic use.

I'll try to do some links to arguments, but in any case, you are correct in that vested interests in the US has been kicking against moving over to cleaner sources of energy. I also didn't mean to say that one shouldn't try 'enriching' the ocean, but this is happening anyway because of the higher temperatures spreading north and west --this is part of the "feedback systems" I was talking about. You get positive and negative feedback from the ecosystem.

Do keep in mind, though, that decomposing organic material also sets free greenhouse gases, and bacteria and algae is the kind of material that dies and decomposes the quickest..

There are always possible counterbalances, but humanity is simply not taking this whole thing seriously enough.
Even reducing the carbon dioxide radically will help offset the methane--but remember farming/agricultural practices and our Western "overeat" culture also adds to methane production. ..and people are so set in carrying on with fossile-fuel that they have started offering up some rather extreme countermeasures.

I quote from (Gardiner,S M Climate Ethics :Essential Readings 2010 :285)
A number of interventions are already being proposed for combating climate change, ... For example, some suggest deflecting a small percentage of incoming radiation from the sun by placing huge mirrors at the Legrange point between it and the earth, some advocate fertilizing the oceans with plant life to soak up more carbon dioxide, some suggest a massive program of reforestation, and some propose capturing vast quantities of emissions from power plants and burying them in sedimentary rock deep underground.”

Some of these sound pretty far-fetched, and not even close to practical implementation even now in 2013. Take one of the more practical possibilities: reforestation is a joke with DEforestation still going on. ..and I'm wondering if more plant life in the ocean wouldn't also mean more methane production ultimately?

I suppose we could start a long philisophical debate about that... but it would detract from our environmental focus, so I'll desist. :P

It was a bad joke, sorry, but I simply couldn't resist. :P

We're all going to die!

Thanks, Ted. The part of the debate that I would perhaps like us to have a look at, is climate change/global warming and exactly what our most up to date models can tell us about this and how the ecosystem's feedback systems work, plus all of the variables involved in the global warming/climate change phenomenon that we have been witnessing in the last century.

I feel this is quite an essential part of the debate, since digital weather models, called General Circulation Models have been used to inform global dialog on these issues. For instance, the first report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) first published in 1990, which was used to inform the first Earth Summit, The United Nations Conference on Environment and Development (UNCED), held in Rio de Janeiro in 1992, and all similar reports from that date onwards, relied on these climate models.

At first, conservatives refused to believe that global warming was a real phenomenon at all, and especially used the unreliability of these climate models as an argument against reducing the types of emissions (of which there are various).

However, in the past few years there is a lot of evidence that has made the fact of global warming irrefutable. The climate models have become a lot better, but they still cannot predict with exact accuracy how sensitive the ecosystem's feedback systems are.

I have not read the book under discussion in this group yet, (have acquired and will start soon), so I'm not sure in how much detail this is treated there?

I'd like to make it clear that I am not a meteorologist, so I have to trust what the latest scientific reports say, and from what I can see, scientists are pretty much still arguing on many of these details.

Ah, yes, I see you have very many there. Good, then we are of like mind and should have some good discussions soon!

Thanks, Ted! I wonder if a certain member may be so forward as to post a bunch of things in this thread soon? :P Sorry, but this is really one of this particular member's hobby horses, especially climate change. :P

Oh, and do you mind if we link to and mention other books and papers and websites etc, in connection with global warming and so on?

Thanks, Ted! Yes, there has really been a lot written on sustainable dev./global warming/climate change issues in the past few years!

These are all very nice, Ted. :) I have a suggestion, if it is not too forward of me: It would be nice if you made a separate thread for those of us who would perhaps like to add a little background to the global environmental problems we are faced with, and a bit of the history of the concept of sustainable development?

There's a lot of history and quite a bit of controversy regarding these issues, plus a lot of material published, which might be nice to discuss as an adjunct to this book.

All right, Ted. :) I'm glad I noticed the group in time. :D

Hmm, actually, I'd be VERY interested in participating, since environment/global warming/sustainable development happens to be one of my hobby-horses. Sadly April/May is a crazy busy time for me as well, with lots of commitments, but my schedule lets up in early-ish June.

Still, if the discussion is going to be sooner, I'll do my very best to get hold of the book and to keep up..

Thanks, Ted! I just happened to notice the invite about an hour or two ago, so I still need to suss everything out and read the background and get the book itself... but thanks!