David’s Comments (group member since Dec 29, 2010)

David’s comments from the BGGWW Books group.

Sadly, you are very right. California spoils me a bit, though even CA is not entirely the tolerant and open armed Utopia that we think we are.

But I didn't mean I think Dune must reflect an enlightened morality or sexual political backdrop that reflects where we are now. Though it smacks a bit of pre-fem-lib '60s, it can do whatever it wants in its made up future.

What feels anachronistic to me is finding today's sexual landscape or sentimentalities in historical movies or books. Dances With Wolves is the only thing I can think of right now, but there are thousands of instances.

I finished Dune a few days ago. Overall, despite my bitching most of the time, I enjoyed it.

With Ben (StatSig) not liking the archaic sexual politics, I can't wait for a)his response to the end and b)when he reads that Baron Harkonnen is gay. It's like to drive the point home that he is a sniveling, evil bad guy, just throw in that he's gay, that will get the point across. Thanks 1960s!

On a side note, I'm having a similar experience with a book I am reading now by Gogol, Taras Bulba. It is amazing (I'm absolutely giddy over anything by Gogol) but it is sooooo antisemitic. Lots of talk about those dirty Jews and their money grubbing and sub-human ways.

I'm neither gay nor Jewish, but it just makes you cringe to read these old prejudices presented as though that's just the way it is. But, I can easily look beyond all this (and I prefer my copy of Huck Finn to retain all of its original language, tyvm). It's actually weird and/or jarring to me when movies or books apply modern morality to historical settings. It's anachronistic.

Anyway, that's a tangent. I'm just saying, I noticed it, but whatevs.

In the end, Dune was mostly what I want from "brain candy" sci-fi. Though, with most fantasy/sci-fi I've read, it's super serious, super melodramatic, super flat characters, and super un-ironic. Even the Gogol book I'm reading was engaging, witty, and downright personable and chummy in its tone when Taras Bulba had to shoot his son point blank in the face. Like, Dune's Paul is not someone I would ever want to hang out with. He's kind of vapid and melodramatic. I guess he's been through a lot, not being betrayed by your son who defects to Poland for a girl only to come back and fight your own Cossack family a lot... but Paul's been through a lot.

I hear other books in the Dune series are a far cry from this original. I am not compelled to read more in the series. I do want to see the 2000 mini-series if that ever comes to DVD/Blu-Ray and I will probably see the new theatrical release, if that ever gets made.

I am currently 50 pages into this section. It is getting kind of vast and mystical. I hate to be a bummer but I don't think it is living up to the promise of the first section. I also am totally bored by the Harkonens. They are just plain villianous and nothing more. Not much more substance than cartoon villains a la League of Doom to the Superfriends. Yawn. I find myself rushing through to get back to Paul and Jessica.

I am hopeful there is some light at the end of the tunnel.

Just trying to keep activity going so the book club doesn't die out.

From all the talk about how P1 is the best, then P2 and P3 are good but not as good, etc., I was expecting somewhat of a dropoff in enjoyment.

I actually am really enjoying P2. It's more of an adventure story of surviving in the desert. There aren't as many characters coming and going to keep track of. It's more dealing with the world that has been set up. How do you cross a span of sand without getting eaten by a worm? What do you do if a sandvalanche covers your water and tent? How do you handle running into a tribe of renegade Fremen?

So, it is indeed different, but I still very much enjoy it.

I find it funny that I am struggling with patience for epic scope. I mean, when I was younger, I would just disappear into other worlds and other lives via reading. Now, it's like a big ordeal to me. Life is busy, I guess. The idea of a huge world to understand or huge epic storyline or generations of characters, I just find well, long and drawn out.

I think it's why books like Dune sat on my shelf for years. It's such a huge imagination commitment.

I enjoy it, but I don't see how you guys can go from world to world, to future, to fantasy, to space, to alternate reality with these epically long and involved books.

I don't know how to explain it. Jumping from Gogol, to Remains of the Day, to Age of Innocence, to DeLillo, to Faulkner, etc. is seamless to me. To think about finishing Dune then diving into A Game of Thrones exhausts me. I think, it's like coming back from a long trip only to get back on a plane again.

Funny that. Makes me feel stupid.

I'm a bit into Part 2 now. The attack and chaos at the end of P1 came pretty abruptly.

I like the change in Paul. He's pretty badass.

He's maybe a little too... perfect, though. Too unflawed? I don't know, I'm only 30pp or so into this section. I mean, he struggles a bit with his whole "who am I?" bit, but then he just goes, oh, I'm a badass prophet/Duke/mentat/messiah. Okay, cool. Then moves on.

Still enjoying it.

Moving along. I should finish Part 1 tonight. I do enjoy it. I hear what Stat is saying that the sexual politics are dated, but it doesn't bother me. It's misogynistic but it's a product of its time (pre-fem '60s) and it's about a patriarchal society. So, I don't think the sexism is awesome. But it doesn't bother me.

I like the characters though they are fairly flat. I don't expect any of them to have a come-to-jesus or any sort of dynamic arc. But it's not character driven. It's not even really that plot driven. It's strangely setting driven. Maybe that is somewhat common in the genre (remember my exposure to good sci-fi is very low).

I will say that it's been a long time since a book has called to me all day like this one does. All day I think, I can't wait to get the kids in bed and get in my chair and go back to Arrakis. Tonight is my normal game night and I'm a little bit sick, but okay enough to sanitize my hands and go play. But I'm thinking about just cranking out more of Dune.

Role Call!

Who all is reading along?

I have read neither of the 2 books of the month, and I am starting with Dune. I downloaded the sample of GoT on my Kindle so I will be ready to go. But I don't realistically expect to get to it until mid-February or so. I have a few things I want to read between Dune and GoT.

But how many people are working through this book together?

Role Call!

Who all is reading along?

I have still only read the first 50 pages. I was so excited I started it, but I'm a one book at a time kind of guy. I am striking distance from finishing The Three Musketeers. I should be into Dune full force by tomorrow.

Fantastic.

I think I'm getting the political conflict, but it is not all totally clear to me. I'm not sure if I missed it or if it's just not all revealed yet.

I think I get the Baron's plan. They've been stock piling melange for a long time and now they want to control the market. I'm not exactly sure if there is already an existing conflict between the houses (Atreides and Harkonnen) or if the Baron is just using the Duke because he thinks he's a good pawn.

So, that's my first question. Why the Duke and how did the Baron get the Emperor to make it look like it was the Emperor's decision?

Then it looks like the Baron is luring in the Duke with the false idea that the Atreides will control Arrakis for a while. Does the control of Arrakis change every so often? Like why would the Emperor move the Atreides to Arrakis?

Then the Baron is going to distract the Duke's family mentat, use Jessica for something, then march in a couple of troops of Sardaukars and destroy the Atreides.

But why, again? I don't think it's as much about destroying the Atreides as it is maybe hampering/stopping the mining of melange so the price on the Harkonnen stockpile goes through the roof.

So, I think I'm getting it (most of it, at least).

The reading is very slow going for me. But so far, so good. You gets lots of information thrown at you in the first few chapters. Lots of names, places, religious stuff, titles, etc. When the scenes are not filling in backstory and fleshing out the settings they are easier to follow and they are fantastic. The test the old lady put Paul through was cool. I'm thinking we will see again that nerve zapping technology that was in the box he had to put his hand in.

So far, thus seems like a great book for us. Those is us first timers get to experience this must-read book and it has a lot going on so anyone reading it a 2nd time will probably get a Fuller experience. I am sure there is a lot going on in the beginning here that is way over the head of the 1st timer. Reading through again would probably make much more sense of everything.

Initial impressions are exciting. Rest of the family has fallen asleep early, so Goo is hunkering down for a few more chaps.

Terri wrote: "Guess what I found at the library? A first edition copy of Dune!! Wow!

I can't recall right now but I've been trying to remember what books I've read... Although, I should make note of them here..."

I'm glad you mention that. I started Dune a few years ago and gave up after a few pages. I just kept thinking, I must not be in the mood for this. I'll try it later. Lots of names, lots of wtf is that, etc.

Just trying to finish up the Scarlet Letter and The Three Musketeers so I can get started. I hate reading 2 books at a time (kind of like WW games), but I picked up Scarlet Letter again because my wife is teaching it (high school advanced composition and novel teacher) and I hadn't read it since I was in high school. Anyway, I should finish that up tonight, then work on finishing Musketeers. It is very enjoyable, but you can tell those stories that were magazine installments where the author was paid by the word. It would be so much better if it were <500pp.

In fact almost no book needs to be more than 500pp. 350-400 is perfect. 500 if you've really got something going. But even books like Karamozov or Gravity's Rainbow which I love, it's like, c'mon already.

And while I'm babbling, I think I'm not a big fan of series of books for the same reason I'm not a fan of game expansions. Sometimes, an expansion extends the life of a played out game by adding variety or new elements (Dominion) or fixes a dull or broken game (Carcassonne) but mostly I think, why not just play another game. Do I need 5 more Power Grid maps? Do I even want Kingsburg to be bigger and longer with its expansion? No. So, for the most part, I want my games and books to be singular experiences. If it's really good and sequels or expansions actually do improve or prolong the experience in a good way, then okay. But really, I'd rather just read something new or play another game.

I'm in the same boat as Ben. I want to read both. For now, I'm going to read Dune. But I intend to start on AGoT soon thereafter.

Don't get me wrong, though. Read what you enjoy. If a romance, detective, or spy novel inspire you to leave the TV off and read all night by the fire, or at a coffee shop on some impromptu lost-afternoon, or for 15 minutes in the break room at work, then go for it.

The important thing is just to read. And try not to read what you feel you "should" read or "are supposed to" read. Always read what is fun for you.

:steps down from pulpit:

That's a great point, Stat. I pretty much demand the novels I read have love stories. And romance and love are totally different things. There is this tight scene in Age of Innocence when M. Olenska offers Archer one night of sex that they have both been craving but then she would sail back to her husband in Europe and they would never see each other again. Or, they can continue the way they are indefinitely: seeing each other often, talking often, being deeply in love with each other, but never ever able to express it, or show it in any way, and never consummate it.

I think Stat and I are judging romance novels from afar, but they seem like sex stories to me (bodice rippers, etc.). I'm sure there are sacrifices and lovey stuff. But, by and large, they invite me to judge them by their Fabio adorned cover and I do.

Great novels, to me, address the divide between sex and love and search for common ground between the two strangely different concepts. Lolita and Unbearable Lightness of Being both come to mind.

I read somewhere that the average romance novel reader consumes 50-100 books per year. My graduate degree has an emphasis on writing fiction. The professors and other seminarians always said, don't knock romance novels; if you want to make a living write those. If you want to try to write something important keep your day job.

Oh, that's cool, Valk. I didn't realize. It seems like a good place to keep prospective books in mind.

I may have jumped the gun by adding Dune and Game of Thrones to our currently reading list. But those were the threads and topics that came up.

We have a Group Bookshelf which is distinct from our Profile Bookshelves. I think the intention is for the Group Bookshelf to be comprised of books we've read, are reading, or intend to read as a group. Some books have been added to the Group Bookshelf as "read" that I think were intended for personal bookshelves (I think it was just Valk and Ludes). I didn't want to clean it up because I thought they might prefer to transfer the info to their profiles.

Good info for us all here, for those who haven't seen it: http://www.goodreads.com/group/modera...

The more I explore, the more fun this site is, especially the group tools. Keep posting tools and tips/tricks for the site as you find them.

Kudos to Jeff for the forum organization and starting the threads.

I intend to begin Dune this weekend. I am very excited about it.