Tracy’s
Comments
(group member since Dec 25, 2017)
Tracy’s
comments
from the The Idiot by Dostoevsky group.
Showing 101-120 of 127
I've read up the chapter four and was intrigued by a certain page which I was able to look up in a number of translations online. What intrigued me was how direct translators would be (particularly from the early 20th to early 21st century) about a reference to sex with a young girl. Although the comparison below is from the end of chapter 4, I don't think that reading the sentence compared here is a spoiler - it's simply background information which will be introduced early in the book about a character.
Possibly comparing these passages may help you decide which edition you want to read. (Doesn’t it seem as if Martin was the least direct and Avsey the most direct?) Also, some translators appeared to copy the exact phrasing of earlier translators. Fie on them!
PLEASE, feel free to comment on the differences in the translation, even if you haven't read any of the book yet! (Can anyone here actually read the Russian original?)
EARLY TWENTIETH CENTURY
WISHAW 1887
If she accepted this money it was not to be considered as indemnification for her shame as a young girl, which had not been in any degree her own fault, but merely as consolation for the rebuffs of fortune.
GARNET 1913
If she accepted the money now it was not as payment for the loss of her maidenly honour, for which she was in no way to blame, but simply as a compensation for her ruined life.
MARTIN 1915
If she accepted this money it was not to be considered as indemnification for her misfortune as a young girl, which had not been in any degree her own fault, but merely as compensation for her ruined life.
-------------------------
EARLY TWENTY FIRST CENTURY
PEVEAR AND VOLOKHONSKY 2002
Finally, if she did accept the capital now, it was not at all as payment for her maidenly dishonor for which she was not to blame, but simply as recompense for a wrecked life.
MCDUFF 2004
Finally, if she were to accept this capital now, it was in no way payment for her maidenly disgrace for which she was not to blame, but simply as a recompense for a corrupted destiny.
AVSEY 2010
Finally, even if she were to accept the money, it would not be as compensation for the shameful loss of her maidenhood- for which she was not to blame – but simply as recompense for a wrecked life.
Then in the first few chapters, we encounter the Yepanchins:THE YEPANCHINS
GENERAL Ivan Fyodorovitch Yepanchin - A fifty-six year-old general. Yepanchin is a wealthy and respected member of St. Petersburg society. At the very beginning of the novel he lusts after Nastassya Filippovna.
LIZAVETA Prokofyevna Yepanchin - Wife of General Yepanchin (form a nobler family than he is) and distant relative of Prince Myshkin, who has a similar changeable temperament to her daughter Aglaya. She is seeking husbands for her three daughters.
AGLAYA Ivanovna Yepanchin - A beautiful twenty-year-old and the youngest daughter of General Yepanchin and Lizaveta Prokofyevna. Aglaya is haughty and childlike in her caprices, but also romantic and idealistic. Initially courted by Ganya and Evgeny Radomsky, she is also a major character in the novel.
ALEXANDRA Ivanovna Yepanchin - The oldest daughter of the Yepanchins, 25 and unmarried. Highly educated and well read, she has a talent for music. Peripheral character.
ADELAIDA Ivanovna Yepanchin - The middle daughter of the Yepanchins, who is twenty-three. Adelaida, like her older sister, is cultivated and expresses a talent for painting. She is courted by Prince S. Peripheral character.
I've looked at several character lists online and edited them so they don't have spoilers. Here are the first ones we'll encounter directly or indirectly. Note that the spelling varies in different translations. Usually the women are referred to by their first names, the man by their last names - but some are referred to by their first two names.Prince Lev Nikolaevich MISHKIN - the hero and protagonist, Myshkin is a descendant of an old noble line and a distant relative of Madame Yepanchin. He is a fair-haired, blue-eyed epileptic in his late twenties. He comes to Russia after an absence of four years spent in a sanitarium in Switzerland. Myshkin is innocent, naïve and lacking in the social graces but open, compassionate, kind and psychologically perceptive.
PAVLISCHEV – Myshkin’s benefactor, who died two years before the start of the novel
Parfyón Semyónovich ROGOZHIN– volatile, passionate, impulsive and potentially violent dark-haired man who inherited a lot of money at the start of the novel, and who madly lusts after Nastassia.
NASTASSIA Filippovna Barashkova – Beautiful, and proud but self-hating, Nastassia had been orphaned and raised by Totsky, who made her his mistress when she was very young, therefore ruining her chances in society.
Afanassy Ivanovich TOTSKY- A rich aristocrat in his middle fifties, he tries to arrange the marriage between Nastassya Filippovna and Ganya to get her off his hands so he is free to remarry.
Lukyán Timoféevich LEBEDEV - A rogue, drunkard, liar, and recently widowed father of a large family. Initially, part of Rogozhin's gang.
(Mishkin, Rogozhin and Nastassia might be considered the three major characters)
CONCERNING MISHKINI copied over questions for discussion about The Idiot from a number of sites. Most are divided into sections based on the specific "book" in the novel. I these all pertain to Mishkin in book one. They might be helpful to keep in mind while reading.
MISHKIN
1. How is Myshkin characterized? In what ways is his character important to the thematic content of the novel?
2. What is the usual reaction of strangers to Myshkin?
3. Explain the difference between the medical use of the term "idiot" and the popular usage. Is Myshkin insane? How does Dostoevsky keep us from assuming that Myshkin is insane?
4. On the day of his arrival to Russia, Prince Myshkin meets all the major players of the game, all the main characters of the novel. All of them in one way or another express their impression of him. A number of them call him idiot or comment on his inadequacy or weirdness. What are their reasons for such an opinion? (Discuss Rogozhin, Lebedev, Epanchins, Ivolgins, Nastasia Philippovna)
5 Why Switzerland? How does this country, and Europe in general, emerge in the discussions of Dostoevskys characters, particularly Mishkin?
6. What do we know about Prince Myshkin's family? What importance, if any, does his birth family have and early situation in life, and how might it have influenced him?
7. What makes Prince Myshkin welcome in Epanchins family? What makes Epanchins reconsider their initial opinion about him?
8. What are Prince Myshkin's virtues? What flaws, if any, mar his moral beauty?
9 In what ways is Myshkin a “holy fool”? How is he Christlike? In what ways is he unlike Christ?
10. How does Myshkin's story of Marie illumine the prince's character and prepare us for his reaction to Nastasya?
11. Why did Prince Myshkin become attracted to Nastasia Filippovna? How does he stand out among her suitors?
For comments or questions about book one in general that aren't specifically related to a particular chapter
Wow! Another resource page - from college course on The Idiot with notes and discussion questions for each part! This could be useful for our discussionhttp://www.slavdom.com/index.php?id=132
No, we don't need to abbreviate the title, but I know that when I'm quickly typing my comments, I often use abbreviations (already I'm referring to Anna Karenina as AK). Chances are that we won't refer often to our group as a whole, but we will keep referring to the book, and I undoubtedly will abbreviate - maybe TI.Anyway, my rationalizations for not doing what I need to do today are getting very thin.......When one starts making up totally unimportant issues to discuss in order to avoid the effort of going outside and shoveling out one's car (we had 3 inches of snow on Christmas), it's time to reassess one's priorities <-:
Some of us know each other already from LitnLife, but let's introduce or re-introduce ourselves here anyway, and share our interest in Dostoyevsky, The Idiot and/or Russian literature. Also, please let us know if you've read the book, seen the film and/or are familiar with the story. We have to decide how stringent we will be about our "no spoilers" rule and making sure that we don't refer to anything later in the novel in our chapter discussion threads.
I'm now thinking about abbreviations we can use for this group and the book. What comes to mind:We can refer to our group as TIG (the Idiot group) or DIG (Dostoyevsky Idiot group). And we can abbreviate the Idiot when we're referring to the book as a whole as TI. In regard to the former, I like the suggested meaning of DIG, but if we refer to the book as TI, then it makes more sense to be TIG.
(Yes, I have much more essential things to do besides planning this group, but I am totally enjoying procrastinating the many tasks I intend to do over the holidays)
How about an official starting date of January 2nd but anyone can start posting before or after that date? So the discussion thread for chapter 1-2 can be about anything in those chapters, 3-4 about those chapters etc. This discussion will be like the read-and-discuss-at-your-own-pace subgroup discussions on LitnLife --no specific facilitator for each week.
Chapters 3-4
I checked several online Russian/English dictionaries in regard to the original Russian meaning that is translated as "idiot". The results were amusingly un-profound: Идиот
translation: idiot moron jerk nutcase nit clot mooncalf lardhead fool twerp asshole imbecile dickhead dumbo
Now I avoid the Shmoop site because it's written on a cutesey junior high school level, but sometimes the writers there are insightful. Here's what they said and asked about the title "The Idiot":
"The double meaning here comes from the word idiot, which, believe it or not is exactly the same in Russian (except the stress is on the "o" and not the first "i"). On the one hand, the word meant back then what it still means today: dummy, numbskull, dimwit, or moron—you get it, basically "a stupid person."
"On the other hand, this is the word that used to be a medical term for a mentally handicapped patient. The joke of course, is that although Myshkin starts out and ends as the latter, and is constantly assumed to be the former, he is actually the shining beacon of intellectual truth and beauty. So, irony.
"Another way to go with this title is to compare it to all those other 19th century novels which are named after characters (Madame Bovary, David Copperfield, Emma, Anna Karenina). Why isn't this novel titled "Myshkin," as Dostoevsky originally intended? Why does Dostoevsky want us to focus on the way others perceive Myshkin right off the bat with the title?"
This highly regarded biography of Dostoyevsky includes several chapters on his writing of the Idiot. You can buy it used or new at Amazon or maybe get it from your library.Dostoevsky: The Miraculous Years, 1865-1871 Paperback –
by Joseph Frank (Author)
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0691015872/
"This fourth installment in Frank's acclaimed, projected five-volume biography presents an astonishingly vivid, uncanny portrait of Dostoevsky's spiritual, emotional and artistic development during his crucial years abroad. Marrying his pert, reserved stenographer, Anna Grigoryevna Snitkina (his first wife died in 1864), Dostoevsky fled Russia with her in 1867 to escape harassing creditors and grasping dependents. Their obscure, lonely existence in Germany, Switzerland and Italy, until their return to Russia in 1871, was punctuated by the tragic death of their first child, Sofya, who lived only two months; by the penurious writer's frequent, disabling epileptic fits; by his mania for gambling; and by a stormy meeting with liberal, pro-Western Turgenev in Baden-Baden. The miracle implied by the book's title is that during this period, Dostoevsky wrote three major novels-Crime and Punishment, The Idiot and The Devils-plus two novellas, The Gambler and The Eternal Husband. Frank anchors the prophetic writer in his social and cultural milieu, tracing his struggles against Russian nihilists, his expose of the pitfalls of revolutionary politics, his messianic nationalism and his vision of an authentic Russian culture rooted in Christian morality and mystical union with the soil"
Well, I figure we can discuss the Idiot on the discussion threads devoted to the book!I know I can be a stickler for posting in the appropriate threads, and also that that's not viable a lot of the time when we're responding to another post or when what we have to say doesn't quite fit anywhere. But at least attempting to do so does help us locate posts on a specific subject.
Haaze - I wasn't aware that I contacted you directly about The Idiot - only because I consciously contacted only 2-3 LitnLife members who indicated that they weren't going to read Anna Karenina. Did Dianne contact you? I certainly would have messaged you directly if I thought you'd be interested. But I was also trying to avoid creating conflict for AK readers.
Admittedly, some members have been annoyed with me for starting subgroups on books which aren't the primary LitnLife read, which is why I'm trying to keep this separate from LitnLife. And I really don't want to siphon off interest from the AK read.
But some of us won't be reading it or are (hopefully) capable of reading TWO big Russian novels at the same time.
By the way, it's Tracy without an E!
Downloadable FREE Eva Martin translation here (pdf and kindle)https://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/d/dost...
Also the FREE Eva Martin book for the Kindle is here:
https://www.amazon.com/Idiot-Fyodor-D...
Free Constance Garnet translation (early 20th century. The full url is five lines line, so use this instead and choose the third book snapshot, 1913 )
https://books.google.com/books?id=Z1x...
OTHER DOWNLOADS OF THE IDIOT
http://www.openculture.com/2014/12/do...
(Note that the free downloads are all early 20th century translations. The three most recent aren't free - Pevear and Volokhovsky, Avsey, and McDuff. But you can preview a significant portion of them (particularly the intro and beginning chapters) at google.com/books .
FREE AUDIO https://archive.org/details/idiot_mg_...
(first impression, the reader is quite good)
There are many other free download sites which provide the earlier Wishaw and Garnett translations but they all seem to require registration and registering at an unknown site can be risky (spam etc.)
When participants read different translation, we may have a more interesting discussion - especially when trying to clarify the meaning of a passage and comparing translations.
For general personal reflections on the book, film, issues raised - reflections that don't necessarily fit in any other discussion thread. This thread may contain spoilers. If you've read the whole book, you might want to post here.
On Amazon.com --The Pevear and Volokhonsky translation
https://www.amazon.com/Idiot-Vintage-...
The Ignat Avsey translation
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/184...
The David McDuff translation
https://www.amazon.com/Idiot-Penguin-...
This topic will be for discussion of approximately the first 2 chapters of book one. I suggest that we read at our own page, with each discussion thread devoted to 25-30 pages. That way, we'd end up with about 25 discussion threads or an average of 6-7 per "book".
While I've been watching the Russian mini-series, I've used these sites as reference (the analyses segments have sometimes been helpful). They also have lists of characters (but be careful - some of character descriptions have spoilers)The Idiot Spark Notes
http://www.sparknotes.com/lit/idiot/
The Idiot Cliff Notes
https://www.cliffsnotes.com/literatur...
Middlebury College Study Guide
http://community.middlebury.edu/~beye...
The last link above has a page on The Making of the Idiot which discusses Dostoyevsky's process - he ended up with 8 different plans. His stenographer/wife saved all his planning notes which are actually now published in a book.
http://community.middlebury.edu/~beye...
At Googlebooks website http://www.google.com/books there are ebook previews of some of the editions of The Idiot. The P&V book clearly indicates that there are spoilers in the posted introduction. But I read the excellent McDuff introduction there, which doesn't have spoilers which in my opinion at least are likely to ruin the reading experience for those who don't know the story.https://books.google.com/books?id=70x...
(For those of you not familiar with googlebooks, the previews there don't reveal all of a book - nor can you save or print what you read there. But the whole McDuff intro is readable there).
