Tracey’s Comments (group member since Jul 17, 2016)

Tracey’s comments from the Sir Walter Scott Appreciation group.

Deborah wrote: "I read this stories, and many other in her collection a long time ago. I'm glad I reread it. It had the same punch as it did the first time around. Her writing is really well honed in this. First y..."

Did you notice the symbolism in the story:

3. Symbolism.

Many people feel that the patterns in the wallpaper represent the way women were viewed. Can you list some of the patterns?

pointless patterns
lame uncertain curves
outrageous angles
destroy themselves in unheard of contradications

If this is how men viewed women in the late 19th century, how was woman to define herself?

The woman in the story had to literally claw off these definitions and was left without reality and sanity.

Deborah wrote: "Been thinking about the isolation in this story. Although she has more interaction, it makes me think of just how terrible and damaging solitary confinement must be."

I agree. This is why it is used as a means of punishment or torture. A human mind left on it;s own has to be incredibly strong and stable with a very great self-esteem behind it to not turn in on itself. We are social creatures and are meant to have a sense of belonging, worth and well being from others.

Deborah wrote: "Tracey wrote: "My own personal thoughts: This is not my usual genre but I am exploring how psychological disturbances are/were viewed and treated and pondering if anything much has changed. Being i..."

What most people don't realise is the doctors now have at most 6 months of training on drugs and any new ones are 'taught' them mainly by drug reps (who have a vested interest, right!) I can't tell you how many times I have called doctors in my 30 years of practice as a pharmacist to advise them not to prescribe a certain medication for either a) the condition or b) this particular patient or c) both; because it really was contraindicated or worse absolutely inadvisable. I don't blame doctors but I wish there was more collaboration. It is both the food and drug industry that is killing most people. And depression, in general, is still so poorly treated. It almost takes a miracle to find a healthcare practioner who will take the time to really listen and take the time to really educate themselves in an area that is so stigmatised.

My own personal thoughts: This is not my usual genre but I am exploring how psychological disturbances are/were viewed and treated and pondering if anything much has changed. Being in the healthcare profession I would have to say that in some instances, no not really. For my own self, I have had fibromyalgia for more than 30 years and was continually treated as being 'a head case' and needing antidepressant treatment. Now finally I am diagnosed and being treated with holistic treatments and some pain meds (not an antidepressant insight and voila...I am slowly getting better. So you can see how with this perspective I can now bring to all such 'stories' of emotional behavior in females makes me more interested in visiting what I would have previously avoided. Until we learn from history we are doomed to keep repeating it.

Rosemarie wrote: "The Turn of the Screw by Henry James

On the whole, I really didn't like this book. I have never been a fan of this type of story. I can appreciate how well written the ta..."

No I wouldn't keep it on my bookshelf but what I found interesting was that I think James was hinting at that it was the governess all along that was hysterical. Tying it in with The Yellow Wallpaper; The Wallpaper Replies at the same time I think enhanced both for me. It's not my genre either but I am exploring how psychological disturbances are/were viewed and treated and pondering if anything much has changed. Being in the health care profession I would have to say that in some instances, no not really. For my own self, I have had fibromyalgia for more than 30 years and was ontinually treated as being 'a head case' and needing antidepressant treatment. Now finally I am diagnosed and being treated with holistic treatments and some pain meds (not an antidepressant in sight and voila...I am slowly getting better. So you can see how this perspective I can now bring to all such 'stories' of emotional behaviour in females.

This was first published in the New England Magazine (1892) and is considered to be Gilman's best work of short fiction. It is based on her own experience of post-partum depression.
How would you rate it?

Initially, Gilman had difficulty getting this story published and it was classified as horror.
How would you classify it?

It was not until modern times that it was seen as a work of feminist indictment of subjugation of women.
Is this how you view it?

Author background:
Charlotte was raised by her mother, her father having abandoned the family. How do you think this affected her and her writing?
Harriet Beecher Stowe (Uncle Tom's Cabin was her GreatAunt as was also Isabella Beecher Hooker, an ardent suffragist.
How do you think these 2 relatives affected Charlotte?

Suggested themes in the story:

1. The Role of Women.
The role of women in 19th-century society including:
marriage
economic and social dependence on men
repression of female individuality and sexuality.

2. Mental Illness.
The descent of the woman in the story from frustrated mental instability to rage and complete mental breakdown and insanity.

The story also addresses how doctors at the time viewed such conditions and their treatment. Are things viewed differently today?

3. Symbolism.

Many people feel that the patterns in the wallpaper represent the way women were viewed. Can you list some of the patterns?

4. Gothic.
There is a gothic element to the story in that it seems to include horror, dread, dreams, suspense, and strangeness or remoteness of a place. Do you think that the author used this to add to the effect of her story?

Historical Context.
What do you know of the historical context of when the story was published (1892)? What was life like for women at that time?

Further Reading:
The Madwoman in the Attic: The Woman Writer and the Nineteenth-Century Literary Imagination
The Awakening
The Herland Trilogy: Moving the Mountain, Herland, with Her in Ourland

Rosemarie wrote: "I have heard about the Alexiad, but am not interested in reading it. I find her style too ornate and flowery. I know the name Hereward the Wake, but little else."

Charles Kinglsey wrote a book about him which I would like to read:

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1...

Rosemarie wrote: "I finished the book. It is one of his more disjointed works. My favourite character was Hereward."

I agree. Scott made Hereward the better of the characters. Have you ever read anything about Hereward the Wake? I think Scott was influenced by this character and his nobility. Would you be interested in reading The Alexiad

Rosemarie wrote: "Why didn't Robert listen to the warning of Behemond? He drank the wine and paid the price."

Interesting comment, but not an unusual response. Throughout history monarchs have been known to ignore the advice of lesser mortals and pay the price; something of a God complex maybe.

Deborah wrote: "Tracey wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Rosemarie wrote: "So am I, and look forward to reading her work with the group."

I read about her years ago. I don't remember where. I've read Herland and the sequel..."

It has been shown that prolonged isolation causes physiological changes within the brain that would make a person psychologically disturbed. Some cure!

Deborah wrote: "Are you reading the collection of stories, or just a select few? I may join in on this"

We are doing as a group just The Yellow Wallpaper but reading other stories as a buddy read is possible. We are also reading The Turn of the Screw as both are fairly short. Please join in any or both if you can.

Deborah wrote: "Rosemarie wrote: "So am I, and look forward to reading her work with the group."

I read about her years ago. I don't remember where. I've read Herland and the sequel (the title escapes me as it wa..."

I had read she was a feminist and a social reformer and that The Yellow Wallpaper was written after suffering postpartum depression. I have wanted to read it for a while and am hoping by reading it as a group it won't be too depressing.

Haaze wrote: "A nice collection of Gilman's works:
https://smile.amazon.com/Delphi-Compl......"

This will be the first of her works I have read so thanks for the link :) Which of her works have you read that you liked the most?

To be posted

Rosemarie wrote: "Fyodor Dostoyevsky is one of my favourite authors. For the 1840s I read Arme Leute, which was not a disappointment.
It is one of his earliest works, but he already sh..."

You are steaming ahead. Great work.

Rosemarie wrote: "Unfortunately, your are correct, Tracey.
Ivanhoe as a character is about as interesting as Rowena, which is not good since he is the title character of the book."

Scott had the capacity to make his characters interesting, so why did he make these two so luke warm and Rebecca and Bois Guilbert so passionate and alive? Making a point?

Lori wrote: "Tracey wrote: "I loved it because of being able to relate to it (being staged near to my home ground) and for the heroine Rebecca. How many of us wish Ivanhoe had loved Rebecca? However Scott wisel..."

If Scott had made Rebecca convert, which was the only way realistically they could have been together, I feel it would have spoiled the story. Rebecca was true through and through.

Rosemarie wrote: "This is not my favourite book by Scott, for many of the reasons you mentioned, Lori. The "tournament" at the end was a bust.
Is it wrong that I preferred Bois Guilbert to Ivanhoe? For a title char..."

Ivanhoe appears to have no passion so I am wondering if Scott was inferring that passion is a good thing but needs to channeled properly. Bois Guilbert dying from choice at Ivanhoe's hand I think would have been a better ending and would have made him the hero. If I was to re-write Ivanhoe it is the one main thing I would change except make Issac a noble patriarch equal to the nobility of Rebecca.

Rosemarie wrote: "I have just read the chapter in which Rebecca describes the battle for the castle, chapter 29. Rebecca and Ivanhoe have a discussion about war and chivalry. To put it bluntly, Ivanhoe is an ignoran..."

I know the attitude in one today would be offensive but I find it interesting and worthwhile to keep in mind where we have come from because we can so easily return there (I am sure Donald Trump would have loved living in that time period and would like to return us all to the Dark Ages).

I loved it because of being able to relate to it (being staged near to my home ground) and for the heroine Rebecca. How many of us wish Ivanhoe had loved Rebecca? However Scott wisely knew that such a thing would have been unthinkable back then. The trial by tournament at the end was disappointing; how much better would it have been if Bois-Guilbert had allowed Ivanhoe the upper hand and thus done the most noble thing, dying to save Rebecca who he had put in this position in the first place.
The resurrection of Athelstane was done according to Scott because a 'fan' was upset at his death. It was a bit of nonsense and I felt the story would have been better without it.
All in all a romanticized view of the times but full of Scott's love of honour and fairness to all men. Makes it a winner for me.