Vern’s Comments (group member since Jan 09, 2019)

Vern’s comments from the Our Shared Shelf group.

Welcome Pam! Thank you so much for helping out, and I have always enjoyed your comments over the years!

Thank you Kai for answering all the questions and Jo for sharing all the answers, I really enjoyed reading her responses to everyone.

And yes Allison, I will buy her pizza too if I am ever fortunate enough to meet her!

Further reading/information

Interviews with Kai where she talks about Fierce Femmes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2nCs...
https://vimeo.com/254543402

Articles by Kai:
(1) How Trans Women Are Reclaiming Their Orgasms: Great article from Kai where she talks about exploring sexuality as a trans person, very informative, detailed, with links to other information: :
https://www.buzzfeed.com/kaichengthom...

(2) Pursuing Happiness As a Trans Woman of Color: https://www.buzzfeed.com/kaichengthom...

Another very educational and informative article for anyone who is exploring their sexuality as a trans person: https://www.buzzfeed.com/kaichengthom...

This was written by Kai Cheng Thom who wrote our latest book club pick, Fierce Femmes and Notorious Liars: A Dangerous Trans Girl's Confabulous Memoir.

Hi Kai!

Thank you so much for agreeing to answer our questions!

(1) I saw an interview you did discussing Fierce Femmes and you talked about how the book is both an apology and love to the trans community. Could you speak a bit more on that and why you felt the need to speak on this idea of community being both a place of sanctuary but also sometimes conflict?

(2) In another discussion group on Our Shared Shelf, we talked about the antagonism that is sometimes present in the feminist community between cis women and trans women. Have you experienced this antagonism? And what would you like to see more of in the feminist movement?

(3) I've read that almost half of transgender people will be sexually assaulted at some point in their life, and I also read your article for Buzzfeed ("How Trans Women Are Reclaiming their Orgasms") stating this statistic and basically making it so any kind of sexual contact could be terrifying on a psychological level. Can you talk a bit about the role of the ghost friend in Fierce Femmes and whether it was a way to explore safely the character's sexuality/sexual desires?

(4) I know your main form of expression has been poetry, what was it like to switch platforms to start writing a novel? Did you have a preferred form of expression: spoken word performances, poetry, novelist, children's book author? And what would you like your body of work to accomplish?

Thank you again so much!
Veronica

I love Leigh Bardugo, the Six of Crows duology is just fantastic to me. Recently, I also discovered N.K. Jemisin and I adore her Broken Earth trilogy so far, I'm just starting book 2: The Obelisk Gate.

Chapter that stuck with me the most: Dr. Crocodile. Just no idea on my part this sort of abuse happens, so I found that horrendous and eye opening also enraging that access to safe and affordable health care continues to lag behind our collective needs.

Takeaway from Part 2: I listened to an interview with Thom where she explained part of the reason she wanted to write this book was to convey both a love letter and apology to the trans community, and I really started to see that beginning with part II. Especially when she gets into the characters of Kimaya and Lucretia and Valaria.

Interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2nCs...

I also really started to see how Thom explores the dynamics in the trans community: there are themes of love, hatred, desire, jealousy, safety, and danger within the trans community, and I started to see that here in part II where she's describing the characters of Lucretia, Kimaya, Valaria, etc., and I think she does it in such an open but delicate way. She explores those theme while still maintaining this theme of solidarity amongst trans women. The idea of being a fish was interesting, small and hairless with delicate bones and this notion of being privileged within the trans community because I'm guessing if you look a certain way it will be easier for everyone else to accept you because you can be categorized into one end of a binary. I almost wished Thom had gone into a bit more depth on that issue. But I'll look for some other reading material on that!

Favorite quote: I loved "A sanctuary is a place where the door only locks from the inside." I reread that line a couple of times before moving on.

Writing style: I do like Thom's style. It reminds me very much of spoken word and I liked the poems on her pocket knife interspersed throughout, even if I did not always understand them. I particularly liked song of the pocket knife part 3 and the idea that she loves her pocket knife because it hurts her with its love and not the other way around. I think that really says a lot about her relationship to self-harm and also her conflicting feelings about her ability to express her own love.


And thank you for the links, I am trying to learn more about how I can become a better ally as well as just in general!

Thank you for this thread Jo. I actually have gone back to re-read because I knew I was forgetting some things! I was curious about the mermaids too. They reminded me so much of beached humpback whales, I began to wonder if Thom was not telling the reader: Look at how two people looking at the exact same thing can see two different things and that does mean either is wrong. But also that despite the magical realism and fantasy of this novel maybe there is a bit of truth in it as well? Perhaps like how the best lies always stick as close to the truth as possible. I mean we already know our narrator is a notorious liar.

Florian, I could also definitely see them saying "Leave, enough is enough, get on with your life, you can't stay here trying to save something that won't be saved"?

I felt like the bees and her silver knife always made me think of self-harm and how she deliberately hurts herself. But the knife also comes into play when she needs to protect herself. So it both hurts and helps her. I'd curious to hear anyone's interpretation on these recurring themes. But also as Florian pointed out there is this trapped kinetic energy, the result of oppression, that is simmering beneath the surface.

The ghost friend was very interesting; almost this piece of yourself or a safety blanket you hold onto. It's interesting that the ghost friend comes into play with her sexuality; I have been reading other trans literature to help me because I acknowledge my ignorance, and I has me wondering if this was just a safe way to explore sexuality given the danger some tans women and men face in a cis and binary-focused world, especially because after we learn about the ghost friend we jump right into the chapter of How to Kill a Man with Your Bare Hands.

I saw her sister Charity as sometimes representative of her loss of innocence, and it was telling to me she had to leave behind her and that innocence because it was too dangerous where she was headed.
But also as her sister she might have wanted to gloss over the bad parts of her life so she would not worry?

Alice wrote: "I couldn't put it down. Read it all the way through yesterday!"

Same Alice! I meant to sit down and try and read half, but I just ended up finishing it in one sitting!

Katelyn wrote: "I'm only partway into the book (and thoroughly enjoying it so far!), but the thing that has stood out to me from the beginning is the incredible cover.

Based on what I've read until this point, I ..."

I loved the cover when it was first announced, thinking it was very whimsical and went with the idea that there was some magical realism involved in this book. But now looking back I really see how it is just another layer of how well thought out this endeavor was. The bees, the knife, the lipstick, the mermaid all play a part within the story Kai weaves. And Thank you Katelyn for bringing this up because I didn't think to go back and revisit the cover afterwards.

Not further reading, but I'm watching a great documentary on Netflix called The Death and Life of Marsha P. Johnson, a film on trans gender activist and legend Marsha P. Johnson!

Pam wrote: "commenting to dust off this thread given the book we are reading now.


Any additional thoughts?"
Thanks for dusting off this thread Pam!

Very basic but helpful information on terminology, on how to fairly and accurately report on transgender people, and where to go for additional resources:

Terms to use and avoid/Pronoun usage/Defamatory language: https://www.glaad.org/reference/trans...

Tips for Allies:
https://www.glaad.org/transgender/allies

Tips on writing accurate stories:
https://www.glaad.org/reference/cover...

FAQs
https://www.glaad.org/transgender

Autumn wrote: "I normally don't comment because I'm a pretty brutally honest person. So here goes nothing. I find most of the commentary in this thread encouraging and some disappointing. I'm a gender nonconformi..."

Autumn wrote: "Pam loved talking to you! You're very sweet! Katelyn I love what you're saying and I definitely agree! It's about balance for sure. You have a lovely heart for trans inclusion. And I agree cis men ..."

Thank you for your honesty and openness Autumn, I really appreciate your comments and I’m very sorry, to echo Katelyn, that your experiences have made you feel you don’t belong. I agree toxic masculinity is a root cause for so much harm both to the young boys who are raised in and may go on to perpetuate it as well as to others. I like the idea of looking at gender equality as both large and small scale, and I definitely agree we need to broaden how we look at things. I think people get so wrapped up in things being the way they have always been, i.e., male and female so it is a good reminder that we need to broaden our perceptions because not everyone fits or should have to fit into the gender binaries of male and female; gender fluidity and gender nonconforming people exists and matter.

Pam wrote: "Hey Vern, other mods, other educated persons,

With the new book picked... Could you recommend any links, resources and educational tips for those of us who may not be familiar with trans culture?..."

Hi Pam!

First I wanted to thank you so much for your earlier comments regarding the tensions between feminist and trans feminist communities.

I’m still doing research on this topic but some things I’ve come across in regards to your points is the difference between reclaiming cis women's biological functions and genitals versus defining gender by those things. I think it was Autumn who basically echoed this sentiment about people not begrudging anyone the right to reclaim things that for years have been used to put cis women down, however, I do think it excludes trans women when those things are made to define what it means to be a "woman."

In regards to the concept of safe spaces, I think part of the problem as you touched upon is that we are stuck in this binary categorization. Given that, I think yes I would agree that cis men need to "make space” for trans men, but given the the vulnerability of the trans population I am honestly unsure of how this would work. I think cis women need to make space for trans women. Trans women are women so I really don’t see this as making space for anyone. Again, these are just some thoughts, and I’d love for someone with more knowledge to chime in here, because I realize a huge problem is that not everyone does or should have to fit into these rigid categories of Male and Female.

I hadn’t heard about the concerns of lesbians being ostracized because of dating preferences. That is horrible. When I first read this I thought about how some people’s dating profiles will specify races they will not date. I will say if you would not date a person because of a characteristic then maybe there might be an underlying prejudice there. I think it’s one thing if you won’t date a person because you just aren’t attracted to them or you don’t get along or your personalities don’t match, and I think it’s another thing if you will not date someone because they are trans or of a certain race or both and that may be due to the fact of how society demeans or treats certain genders, races, people with disabilities, etc. What do you guys think?
I mean I certainly would not try to force anyone to date anyone else or ostracize them, but it would be nice to be able to have a conversation about it if others were open to it. I do think at the end of the day you simply can’t force someone or shame them into being more open but maybe education an awareness can open people’s minds a bit more?

So I should have prefaced this by saying I’m definitely not an expert, and I am really enjoying talking to you all about this in this space. I am doing some research, as to your last comment Pam on resources and educational materials and compiling a little bit of information that I will try and get up by Sunday, I’m also planning a field trip to the local LGBT center here where I live (San Francisco) to gather some more resources which may be helpful so stay tuned.

Ana wrote: "Hey, Vern! What a great topic to discuss. It's obvious that you've joined us with plenty to bring to the table. :)

First of all, I need to say that I was pretty much just the same as you - comfort..."

Hi Ana! Thank you for asking, here is the article that originally sparked me looking into this topic: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/07/op...

Since then I've been doing more research looking into this topic and like you said taking the time to educate myself. And this thread had been very helpful in pointing me in the right direction. I have to agree, I think a lot of the problem is getting people to think beyond themselves as the model of defining femininity and helping people to realize there is more than one way to define "woman" and nothing is taken away by expanding that definition, in fact, quite the opposite.

Jo wrote: "Good question Vern :)
Although I can't claim to have witnessed antagonism 'in real life' I have been reading plenty of articles recently about the subject.
In the past few days there has been news ..."

Thanks for the article Jo, I had not read that news about Navratilova yet. Education is definitely key. I'm learning more and more and at times is does feel like an extremely slow process or even sometimes two steps forward and one back. But I'm happy to have spaces like this where we can all discuss and help each other learn.

How are we defining feminism? I was recently reading an article that talked about the prevalence or resurgence of trans-exclusionary voices (the most dominant group is sometimes referred to as trans-exclusionary radical feminists or TERFs). The article struck me for two reasons: first, I had (probably naively) assumed trans feminism was included within feminism and had never heard of this sort of antagonism or exclusion of trans rights within feminism, and second, I realized what a place of privilege I was coming from to have assumed something like that.

I read an interview with Margaret Atwood where she wanted to know exactly what was meant when you call her a feminist writer. She stated, "Tell me what you mean. I don't sign blank cheques. Do you mean that I'm a 1972 feminist who felt that women were betraying their gender to have sex with men? I'm not that kind of feminist. And I'm not the kind that thinks trans women are not women."

So, I wanted to bring it this topic to the group.

Have you witnessed or do you have any examples of times where you have seen or heard of an antagonism from a section of feminism towards trans people, especially trans women?

Do you think trans people and voices are being excluded and/or ignored in discussions about feminism, and if so, how can we make feminism more inclusive?

Thank you, and I cannot wait to talk with everyone!