Traveller’s Comments (group member since Jan 14, 2015)

Traveller’s comments from the On Paths Unknown group.

Oh, and 2 comments on the events quickly - I was wondering what the scene in the watch store was all about and wondered if it symbolised the man-made nature of time.

Then, also, one becomes aware of the fact that here at Harvard, which is close to Boston of course and of course therefore very much far away from "Southern" culture, how almost ill-at-ease Quentin seems to feel about how Northern and Southern values clash especially as it pertains to racism (and that is an example of what I mean with "dasein" as it pertains to Quentin - he is very much aware of where he sits (metaphorically speaking) in relation to his social and physical surroundings and the various streams in values and cultural judgements that surround him, and he questions it and weighs what his position is relative to it).

Bonitaj wrote: "I love the idea of a "themes thread"... there's so much to tease out and support it from the text!"

[Btw, if you look at the bottom of your messages you'll see a little piece of text which says "edit" in case you want to edit that message.]

Back to themes: we've so far identified : Innocence and it's loss (so far with Benjy, but that theme might expand); time and the passage of time and the nature of time; futility; the paternal voice; the role of parenting; I'll throw a new one in - the taking of responsibility; also, "the shadow" which could stand for our dark side but it could also stand for death, and we do see that Quentin seems rather aware of his own and in general human mortality, and let me throw in another one : Southern values and attitudes towards religion, sexuality and honor, and how they assign honor and the value thereof.

Keep an eye out for all of those and we can discuss later!

Bonitaj wrote: "Traveller, just to clarify, the concept of "Dasein" is literally "being there" in German. How is this interpreted in a form of literary theory you're perhaps referring to?"

(Indeed, literally speaking, da = there, and sein = be, so literally speaking "being there", but)
...the context I tried to convey was not literally or as a part of literary theory, but as a part of Heidegger's phenomenology, but since Heidegger can be tricky, I should perhaps not have used that term.

I meant more to convey a fully aware human being who is fully aware of his objective self and his place in space and time and all that that implies, as juxtaposed against Benji's almost complete lack of self-awareness.

EDIT; so "being there" more in a metaphorical space, as opposed to when we say: "this person is not all there", which, of course, refers to their mental space, but on the other hand, Quentin is perhaps pretty spaced out, so once again, perhaps not an appropriate term - I see Quentin, in fact as over-thinking.
But perhaps we should move that on to the Quentin thread.

Bonitaj wrote: " They sounded "educated" and who then were these beings they had spawned?."

Well, keep in mind that it is mainly the Negro/African American/Black/people of color (please choose the appropriate noun, I cannot keep up anymore with what is considered PC in which context) servants that speak in the first chapter, and of course children would sound childlike. On the few occasions that the parents speak they do indeed sound more educated. But I had in fact been wondering myself how much of the servant's lack of proper grammar use would rub off onto the children, but on the other hand, the mother does seem very quick to correct their speech.

Bonitaj wrote: "What I've already picked up in this chapter is a lot of "slagging off" on women, to the point of full blown misogyny. I haven't the time to go back and harvest various quotes but should anyone encounter proof, please write examples in this thread. ..."

Yes, I had already suspected as much, which is why I was planning to make feminism and Southern attitudes that include racism and misogyny part of the discussion, but later on, when we've covered a bit more ground.

I was thinking that perhaps a separate "themes" thread might be a good idea, but it might also be good to deal with these themes as they occur.
I do seem to be noticing that there are re-ocurring themes that snake in and out of the novel and it might be nice to at some point take an overview of them.

And on that note, I forgot to check on which point in the timeline this narration is taking place. Since Quentin was born in 1890, and today is in 1910, that would mean Quentin is 20 years old by now, and Caddy, being born in 1892, would be 18.

We get some clues that Caddy could perhaps have got married when Benjy was 15 years old, which would have been in 1895 plus 15 = 1910 - so, if it was indeed Caddy's wedding that was referred to, then that would have happened pretty close to Quentin's present.
EDIT: Since her wedding was on 25 April, that makes 2 June just over a month later.

Linda wrote: "I did a double take as well when I read that libe..."

If that had happened, it would be kinda big, huh?

..and of course, then there's that elephant in the room that nobody here has mentioned yet, being the passage: "I said I have committed incest, Father I said.

Does that mean that Quentin committed incest with Caddy? He certainly seems to be obsessed with her marriage, with virgins, brides, Dalton Ames, and so on, doesn't he?
Let's march on and see!

Something else that one quickly picks up from Quentin's narration, is that he seems obsessed with things that his father said. Every second sentence is "Father said, Father said. "

So, a few recurring themes on the first few pages already: His father, 'sister', time, futility, and besides that, his thoughts seem to be churning, churning, churning.

There are so many themes to explore from pretty much the get-go in Quentin, that it's hard to know where to begin: I looked up the St Francis quote about "sister death", and thought I'd report back for those among us who are not Catholic. Imma be lazy and quote from Wikipedia, and the following is not a spoiler, but I'll put it in spoiler brackets so you don't have to scroll past a wall of text if you're not interested:

(view spoiler)[ Giovanni di Pietro di Bernardone (c. 1181 – 3 October 1226), known as Francis of Assisi, was an Italian mystic, poet, and Catholic friar who founded the religious order of the Franciscans. Inspired to lead a Christian life of poverty, he became a beggar and itinerant preacher.

Francis is associated with patronage of animals and the environment. It became customary for churches to hold ceremonies blessing animals on his feast day of the fourth of October, which became World Animal Day. He is known for devotion to the Eucharist. Along with Catherine of Siena, he was designated patron saint of Italy. He is also the namesake of the American city of San Francisco, California.

Interestingly, he was actually born into a wealthy family, but decided wealth was not the way to enlightenment or salvation.

Canticle of Brother Sun and Sister Moon
by St. Francis of Assisi

Most High, all-powerful, all-good Lord, All praise is Yours, all glory, all honour and all blessings.
To you alone, Most High, do they belong, and no mortal lips are worthy to pronounce Your Name.
Praised be You my Lord with all Your creatures,
especially Sir Brother Sun,
Who is the day through whom You give us light.
And he is beautiful and radiant with great splendour,
Of You Most High, he bears the likeness.

Praised be You, my Lord, through Sister Moon and the stars,
In the heavens you have made them bright, precious and fair.
Praised be You, my Lord, through Brothers Wind and Air,
And fair and stormy, all weather’s moods,
by which You cherish all that You have made.

Praised be You my Lord through Sister Water,
So useful, humble, precious and pure.
Praised be You my Lord through Brother Fire,
through whom You light the night and he is beautiful and playful and robust and strong.

Praised be You my Lord through our Sister,
Mother Earth
who sustains and governs us,
producing varied fruits with colored flowers and herbs.
Praise be You my Lord through those who grant pardon for love of You and bear sickness and trial.
Blessed are those who endure in peace, By You Most High, they will be crowned.

Praised be You, my Lord through Sister Death,
from whom no-one living can escape. Woe to those who die in mortal sin! Blessed are they She finds doing Your Will.
No second death can do them harm. Praise and bless my Lord and give Him thanks,
And serve Him with great humility. (hide spoiler)]

Now, if you look at the canticle, you will see that it mentions many brothers and sisters, sister moon, sister earth, sister water, brother fire, etc., but Quentin chooses to home in on sister death, which, along with his reflections on the absurdity of human experience and the futility of human endeavor ( The field only reveals to man his own folly and despair, and victory is an illusion of philosophers and fools. ) perhaps primes us to the fact that he's not in a good place.

[And Bonitaj's shadow probably also features in this.]

Some commentary on Benjy (vs Quentin in the next section) as a narrator.
Hmm, I might be amiss in my understanding of Dasein, but for me the immediate contrast between Benjy and Quentin appears to be that Quentin has Dasein, whereas Benjy was merely a mirror, reflecting back what appears before it, without processing what it takes cognizance of; without making any assumptions, he doesn't even have any self-awareness beyond in a very rudimentary manner- he does use the pronoun "I", so he does know that he exists, but that knowledge doesn't seem to stretch beyond the knowledge of existence, in the sense that there is no introspection; and in this (I personally feel) there lies value;
Benjy is like the camera when you watch a movie – you are forced to make your own conclusions from what you see, and as such, you are not influenced by the personality or assumptions or opinions of the 2nd hand observer; reading through Benjy is like experiencing the world first-hand, for all that he gives you sight, taste, smell, touch, pain, heat, cold.

There are actually quite a few modern novelists, especially in the YA category who make use of such a first-person present tense narration in order to make the narration feel more visceral and immediate.

Of course, the downside of Benjy's section is how terribly jumbled it is in time, but perhaps one should keep Benjy's vivid impressions as a base to compare with how the later sections of the book interpret the events that take place.

FAULKNER AS A FATHER

William Faulkner fathered two daughters, the first, born in 1931, died in infancy, and the other, Jill, born in 1933, died in 2008 (aged 74).

By all accounts, Faulkner himself was a pretty absent father as well as a binge drinker, and there is a famous incident where Jill at age 12 begged her father not to drink on her birthday, only for him to retort that “Nobody remembers Shakespeare’s children.”

Ouch. So perhaps Faulkner really wrote what he knew about... I think it would be nice if we discuss the Compson parents' attempt at parenthood while we are reading the novel, as that aspect of the Compson family unfolds while we are reading.

Bonitaj wrote: "As you read through the text, the etiology of "why" becomes apparent..."
Yes, I believe I know what you're referring to - but... later...

And just in case you missed my edit above, please feel free to regale us with epiphanies from your Norton, even when they are critic's ideas, no problem at all, though you should probably just mention your sources.

In fact, please fill us in on what the critics say, since I certainly don't have the time to go through all of the critical literature myself, with the caveat that you mention the surname of the critic and wait until whatever it is actually pops up in the novel - so here, since shadows are certainly being mentioned, that would be entirely appropriate!
But then as you say, since this will become more apparent a bit further on, and some of us couldn't get a copy in time, let's maybe hold on to that thought a little bit, just for a day or so... apologies that I'm also lagging a bit behind; as I mentioned, things have been busy!

Bonitaj wrote: "Aha, back to the Shadow theme. **The trouble I'll have here going forward is that people will think I am forever falling back on the critics' insights. That isn't the case. I am blindly following a..."

Thanks for that, Bonitaj! Jung-fan here! I can definitely see how that could play a role - I do believe Faulkner is a clever and allusive writer, so I will not be in the least bit surprised if he wove our shadow-self into the novel, and especially with regard to Quentin. Well, since this is a theme, as long as you don't reveal actual events from later on in the novel, you can certainly let rip with symbolism, imagery and themes. EDIT Even when they are critic's ideas, no problem at all, though you should probably just mention your sources. In fact, please fill us in on what the critics say, since I certainly don't have the time to go through all of the critical literature myself, with the caveat that you mention the surname of the critic and wait until whatever it is actually pops up in the novel - so here, since shadows are certainly being mentioned, that would be entirely appropriate!

...which brings me to my character commentary that I wanted to throw out there; What a difference from the previous section, eh? In this section we are obviously from the get-go dealing with someone far more intelligent, sophisticated and well-read; (he starts off with some philosophical musings); and at the same time he comes across as a bit obsessive and neurotic, with all of his worrying and pre-occupations no?

Bonitaj wrote: "btw. none of the threads you post the URL work for me. Even if I copy/ paste, they take me back to the GOODREADS main page with no reference to this work. Ce' la vie! I trust most of the material i..."

But Bonitaj, you should not be copying and pasting, because that wouldn't give you the entire link; does simply clicking on the link not work? And what does clicking on the big green title that says "FAULKNER'S SOUTH- SOUND and FURY" riigght at the top of this page do if you click on that?

..and to add to your comment re Caddy, also, interestingly, in spite of her central role, Caddy is the only Compson child who does not have a voice in the novel, but I was planning to discuss that aspect later on as the events start to unfold more clearly and perhaps also give us a chance to throw a feminist spotlight on this whole kaboodle.

Bonitaj wrote: " CADDY is central to the entire novel. To quote from Olga Vickery ."

Yes, but you see, that is something one might start to guess at in the Benjy section already, but would only realize for certain from reading additional material, or from reading through most of the book; and Caddy's central role becomes even more prominent as we continue with the novel - but as per my most recent request in the convening thread, please let's deal with that as it unfolds and not pre-emptively...

So, although her role is already starting to become clear in the Benjy and Quentin sections, I request that we hold on to that thought and discuss this as it unfolds from the novel itself.

Thanks, Bonitaj!

Bonitaj wrote: "O ne thing I want to mention - is Faulkner's phenomenal language usage, which sometimes gets overlooked in all the struggle to hang on to the various threads. Can we quote some profound sentences, ..."

But of course! Please, please do!

Oh, sorry, and then also this one William Faulkner: The Sound and the Fury'. Literature Insights. by Michael Cotsell ; oh and then there's another reasonable good lit crit series, Harold Bloom's one (I personally don't like Bloom very much, I find him a bit arrogant) William Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury and then Noel Polk's collection of essays New Essays on The Sound and the Fury.

Well, you see, this is exactly why I said that if we were to read even just SOME of the literature that's been written about this novel, then we'll never get to the novel itself, which is why I, for one, have opted for trying to get through the novel itself first.

...but if any of you have read through these or some of these or other lit on the novel, please share, but also please make sure that you share in the context of where we are in the novel.

So, for example, if it is something about Benjy, please do it in that section, or about Jason, then in that section, or about themes in the novel, then where those surface, for example Bonitaj has mentioned the theme of "shadows", so since we have already encountered those, please share, perhaps there in the Quentin thread; which is also a very apt thread to comment on the role that "time" and "chronology" has to play in the novel.

Thank you in advance! 🌞😎🌟

Bonitaj mentioned the Norton critical edition which is an excellent series of lit crit that deals with many classics, then I also have the following on TS and TF that you guys might find interesting:
Reading Faulkner: The Sound and the Fury: Glossary and Commentary <--- this is a good un for sorting out the timeline, though I promise you on my granny's grave that I did not peek before going through Benjy at least once! XD

then, also a VERY interesting book which I haven't had the time to get to: Little Sister Death: Finitude in William Faulkner’s "The Sound and the Fury"