Traveller’s
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(group member since Jan 14, 2015)
Traveller’s
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from the On Paths Unknown group.
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Now you guys have made me curious enough to want to continue reading! XD
Hi Isabel, welcome!I've always kicked against reading Moby Dick (we missed getting it as a set work at school), because I adore whales, and didn't feel up to reading a book about whale hunting, and which kind of vilifies a whale, you know? :P
I realize its about a lot more than just that, though, so maybe sometime soon, I'll just bite the bullet and see how far I get. :P
Hi Jennifer! I've been feeling despondent because nobody seems to have time for our reads, despite initially expressing interest. Glad you're interested, hope it sticks. XDI'm going to make a few suggestions soon about the way we do things, that might help to take the pressure off, and I sincerely hope will encourage more participation. :)
I've been checking my mail every single day in the hopes that somebody might have posted on paths. And today two people have! w00t!I was going to suggest that we redo paths on a totally different format that will take the pressure off. I was just loathe to mention it, but I will a bit later on in the chit-chat thread.
Thank you Derek! That looks very interesting!
Okay, now we're starting to get a bit ahead of ourselves. :D I apologize that I have been moving so slow with this. I promise from today on, I am going to be better and faster. (view spoiler)
Let's get to the later plot points in a bit: I was going to suggest that we reserve judgement over Gertrude until we get to some of the later scenes plus a certain dialogue between her and Hamlet.
I see nobody wants to comment on Hamlet and his wonderful soliloquy there? Ok, we can always refer back to Hamlet's manners and personality and attitude later; Derek has commented that the attitude in those days was that a "man" does not grieve long - or was it? That's actually another little point that I would like to do research on, actually...
..but is Hamlet's grief not in large part due to having to see his mother scorn his father's memory so soon and roll in "Incestuous sheets".
And here, one would possibly detect a bit of misogyny? ..or is it simply that Hamlet himself is generalizing when he says: ... what it fed on: and yet, within a month--
Let me not think on't--Frailty, thy name is woman!--
..and here I want to come back to the question of whether Gertrude is simply stupid. On a first-time read of the play, one might wonder if she is a total airhead, or a callous 'survivor' or even, a wicked schemer. [ Let's pretend we have some imaginary first-time readers of the play along with us. :D ]
Imaginary reader, let's reserve our judgement for a bit! ;)
So, shall we move on a bit?
Enter Horatio, Marcellus, and Barnardo, in which we note the friendship between Hamlet and Horatio, and in which Horatio suggests Hamlet watch out for the ghost.
Hamlet also cannot resist biting Claudius with a witty remark about saving on refreshments by doing a two-in-one wedding/funeral. If you think about it, no wonder Hamlet feels angry!
Now here is truly an example of an angry young man, but in this case, complicated by the fact that he is not simply a rash young hothead; he is a sensitive, intelligent and thoughtful young man who thinks and reflects a lot. What a wonderful concept to spin a play around...
Oh, no. I had replied something along the lines of agreeing that Claudius seems to want to keep Hamlet close in order to manipulate him - yes the famous: friends close but enemies even closer. Then I accidentally pasted over it when I pasted the next quote that I feel might be worth looking at, oi!
Please fell free to post things you might feel you want included - I am not going to quote the entire play, but we might want to look at Hamlet's soliloquies especially, in more detail.
O, that this too too solid flesh would melt
Thaw and resolve itself into a dew!
Or that the Everlasting had not fix'd
His canon 'gainst self-slaughter! O God! God!
How weary, stale, flat and unprofitable,
Seem to me all the uses of this world!
Fie on't! ah fie! 'tis an unweeded garden,
That grows to seed; things rank and gross in nature
Possess it merely. That it should come to this!
But two months dead: nay, not so much, not two:
So excellent a king; that was, to this,
Hyperion to a satyr; so loving to my mother
That he might not beteem the winds of heaven
Visit her face too roughly. Heaven and earth!
Must I remember? why, she would hang on him,
As if increase of appetite had grown
By what it fed on: and yet, within a month--
Let me not think on't--Frailty, thy name is woman!--
A little month, or ere those shoes were old
With which she follow'd my poor father's body,
Like Niobe, all tears:--why she, even she--
O, God! a beast, that wants discourse of reason,
Would have mourn'd longer--married with my uncle,
My father's brother, but no more like my father
Than I to Hercules: within a month:
Ere yet the salt of most unrighteous tears
Had left the flushing in her galled eyes,
She married. O, most wicked speed, to post
With such dexterity to incestuous sheets!
It is not nor it cannot come to good:
But break, my heart; for I must hold my tongue.
He's obviously contemplating suicide (in very poetic tones) and one -does- wonder if that might not be taking things a bit far - but then his situation is complex; it's not his father's death alone that is troubling him.
Anyone else feel that Hamlet's use of language is very philosophical and poetic? I find it very interesting how Shakespeare creates this image by the word choices, the syntactical and semantic choices the character makes.
Another thing I have been wondering about, is why are Claudius and Gertrude so anxious for Hamlet to remain in Denmark?
You know, reading over this again, and especially this:Seems, madam! nay it is; I know not 'seems.'
'Tis not alone my inky cloak, good mother,
Nor customary suits of solemn black,
Nor windy suspiration of forced breath,
No, nor the fruitful river in the eye,
Nor the dejected 'havior of the visage,
Together with all forms, moods, shapes of grief,
That can denote me truly: these indeed seem,
For they are actions that a man might play:
But I have that within which passeth show;
These but the trappings and the suits of woe. ,
now that I have some foreknowledge of the play, I have been reflecting over Hamlet's dilemma, and I realize now how very personal his situation seems for me (and for that reason I have been hesitating to comment, because it feels SO close to home).
I am seeing in Hamlet's words there, a chiding of his mother. He seems to be saying that they're all putting on a show, but that at least his feelings are genuine.
Well, there's no doubt over that he has grief and turmoil, but I don't think his inner turmoil is all that straightforward as dear old Claudius makes it out to be.
Isn't Claudius just an oily snake dear? Oh, you shouldn't be grieving for your father, after all, everybody dies and we all lose our fathers eventually! Come be a man! Well.. first off, grief doesn't just come and go in a month. I was depressed for a good year after my father passed away. But besides that, I don't think Hamlet has just simple grief there. I think he has pain and rage and confusion that his mother could forget his father so quickly and so lightly; and quite rightly so. He is dealing with a lot of inner conflict here - and conflicting feelings for a parent are really the very worst to deal with.
Jennifer wrote: "I have read this past month :White Noise
The Confessions of Catherine de Medici
The Enchanted"
Ah! White Noise! Funny, I actually made contact with it obliquely via my studies and know about a lot of the themes touched on in the novel, without having read the novel itself. I must remedy that soon...
Mar 01, 2016 03:36AM
Oooh, let's hope they manage to move fast with this kind of technology! http://www.forbes.com/sites/sujatakun...
Hi Michele. Hmm, well, I don't think The Trial is all that much different from The Castle, and I suspect The Castle, having a bit of a love story, is slightly more enjoyable.I realize that Kafka is not for everyone. Maybe I'll keep pecking at the book and make comments as I go along, and then whoever wants to, can comment if/when they feel like it.
No worries, Michele, I'm sure there must be other books we have on our crazy schedule that you'd be interested in? We've got a bit of everything lined up. :)
Ok, I wonder if Michele is still around; then she and I can continue alone. If not, I guess we can always do The Castle later, or maybe we'll get more takers for The Trial.
All right, now to continue on a bit:Claudius sends two emissaries, Cornelius and Voltemand, off to Norway, apparently to try and talk some sense into the old feeble bedridden king's head, (the recently deceased Norwegian king's brother), about young Fortinbras wanting to take back the lands that Hamlet snr had grabbed from Norway. Claudius seems to feel that the old man will be more easily persuaded than the young hot-head Fortinbras.
Polonius, Claudius's chief counselor, has a son Laertes, who requests leave from Claudius to return back to France from whence he was called to come and attend Clauduis's coronation.
And after this, we finally meet Hamlet:
(And I think here it is worthwhile to look at the actual words of the text, if you don't mind) Hamlet's replies often are so poetic, that they have become rather famous and oft-quoted.
But now, my cousin Hamlet, and my son,--
HAMLET
[Aside] A little more than kin, and less than kind.
KING CLAUDIUS
How is it that the clouds still hang on you?
HAMLET
Not so, my lord; I am too much i' the sun.
QUEEN GERTRUDE
Good Hamlet, cast thy nighted colour off,
And let thine eye look like a friend on Denmark.
Do not for ever with thy vailed lids
Seek for thy noble father in the dust:
Thou know'st 'tis common; all that lives must die,
Passing through nature to eternity.
HAMLET
Ay, madam, it is common.
QUEEN GERTRUDE
If it be,
Why seems it so particular with thee?
HAMLET
Seems, madam! nay it is; I know not 'seems.'
'Tis not alone my inky cloak, good mother,
Nor customary suits of solemn black,
Nor windy suspiration of forced breath,
No, nor the fruitful river in the eye,
Nor the dejected 'havior of the visage,
Together with all forms, moods, shapes of grief,
That can denote me truly: these indeed seem,
For they are actions that a man might play:
But I have that within which passeth show;
These but the trappings and the suits of woe.
KING CLAUDIUS
'Tis sweet and commendable in your nature, Hamlet,
To give these mourning duties to your father:
But, you must know, your father lost a father;
That father lost, lost his, and the survivor bound
In filial obligation for some term
To do obsequious sorrow: but to persever
In obstinate condolement is a course
Of impious stubbornness; 'tis unmanly grief;
It shows a will most incorrect to heaven,
A heart unfortified, a mind impatient,
An understanding simple and unschool'd:
For what we know must be and is as common
As any the most vulgar thing to sense,
Why should we in our peevish opposition
Take it to heart? Fie! 'tis a fault to heaven,
A fault against the dead, a fault to nature,
To reason most absurd: whose common theme
Is death of fathers, and who still hath cried,
From the first corse till he that died to-day,
'This must be so.' We pray you, throw to earth
This unprevailing woe, and think of us
As of a father: for let the world take note,
You are the most immediate to our throne;
And with no less nobility of love
Than that which dearest father bears his son,
Do I impart toward you. For your intent
In going back to school in Wittenberg,
It is most retrograde to our desire:
And we beseech you, bend you to remain
Here, in the cheer and comfort of our eye,
Our chiefest courtier, cousin, and our son.
QUEEN GERTRUDE
Let not thy mother lose her prayers, Hamlet:
I pray thee, stay with us; go not to Wittenberg.
HAMLET
I shall in all my best obey you, madam.
KING CLAUDIUS
Why, 'tis a loving and a fair reply:
Be as ourself in Denmark. Madam, come;
This gentle and unforced accord of Hamlet
Sits smiling to my heart: in grace whereof,
No jocund health that Denmark drinks to-day,
But the great cannon to the clouds shall tell,
And the king's rouse the heavens all bruit again,
Re-speaking earthly thunder. Come away.
Exeunt all but HAMLET
Hamlet's following words are even better, but I think I'll halt there for now.
Derek wrote: "Traveller wrote: "is Shakespeare expecting his audience to believe the unbelievable?"The answer to that is that they have no trouble believing the nobility is capable of anything. The educated kn..."
Yes, I think you've got it. Well, the nobility could definitely get away with murder, if they knew how to pull the right strings...
I wasn't disagreeing ;) you'll see I thought a similar thing higher up; but what I mean is ; one cannot help wondering how Claudius managed to get away with such a thing! (In the story.) In other words, is Shakespeare expecting his audience to believe the unbelievable? Hamlet is depressed and angry/upset about the situation, sure, but why is there not more outrage from anyone else besides Hamlet? (In the story of the play).
Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "Traveller wrote: "All right, I think we still need to do the twinkle of a fading star on the previous section, btw.... ...or you can just tell us, Amy. :)"
Ooh, ouch! :) Actually, I'm still prett..."
Oops! Er.. now how did I miss that? *blush tomato red* I suppose I was so excited about the EEYEES and the Kingdoms that I skipped over some of the other stuff, OR it's one of those posting together hi-jinx again!
My sincerest apologies, I'm going to go back on this thread to check out what I might have missed! :0
All right, I think we still need to do the twinkle of a fading star on the previous section, btw.... ...or you can just tell us, Amy. :)
...but then, how did audiences come to accept the Gertrude & Claudius marriage? I suppose they didn't. I was thinking that in his speech at the start of scene 2, Claudius was not just doing sleight of hand about mixing sadness and joy, but was also distracting attention from the marriage a bit by focusing on the issues with Norway.
Amy, you might want to refresh your page, you and I posted at the same time - you might have missed my post 107.I got your post 108 though. ;)
Sigh. ...and when he says: The eyes are not here
There are no eyes here
In this valley of dying stars
In this hollow valley
This broken jaw of our lost kingdoms which valley of dying stars is he talking about, because there are eyes that exist in other places?
I wonder if he means a physical place/time/culture, or if he means a metaphorical place such as when we say: " I'm finding myself in a bad place at the moment as far as work is concerned."
EDIT: OK, now I got your post 109 as well.
SUPEREDIT - and your post 111!
Amy (Other Amy) wrote: "The prayers are futile precisely because they are directed to something that cannot answer. (Although given that Eliot is searching for a spiritual solution to the arid modern world around him, I don't think he is really dismissing religion entirely here.) And this is also one of the instances in the poem where one reads forward to read back; as a reader I can't help but take note of the fact that the poem ends in a failed prayer. ..."Yeah, all in all (and one cannot help seeing analogies to The Waste Land) this would seem to be a poem that describes both personal despair and societal criticism; people who had lived through either of the World Wars must have felt very disillusioned with humanity in general, but also, there were many who kicked against modernity and longed for the purity of the rural idyll.
