Derek’s Comments (group member since Sep 16, 2013)

Derek’s comments from the Foucault's Pendulum group.

Very much. Our brains are somehow wired to see patterns. Often that's a good thing. Since we still haven't taught computers to see patterns as well as we do (or possibly, even as well as a pigeon can!) we're not obsolete yet. But Eco is definitely pointing out that we also force patterns onto our environment, and this sometimes misleads us.

After Belbo's death…

If Casaubon is really crazy, we don't even know if Belbo is dead (or Diotallevi, for that matter).

Aglié as much as says that the members of Tres have actually only been inducted into the order because they were named in The Plan, so that doesn't preclude that it's all some kind of hallucination, but it is also consistent with the surface story that the Plan really exists and CB&D just stumbled onto it. But that doesn't explain the circus members. The only reason that makes sense, to me, for their presence is that it's hallucination: except that he sees that circus poster in Paris, and if it's all a hallucination, what is he doing there?

Which is all to say that I have NO idea what really happened!

Traveller wrote: "No, but what I meant was that I'm not so much interested in the other conspiracies and societies, but I am interested in the trial of the Templars, as a curiosity from the annals of history."

I'm actually way more interested in the Templars as a source of fiction :-) As a curiosity from the annals of history, it seems pretty much like history repeating itself. The generally accepted view that the Templars were destroyed because of jealousy and greed is a plot that has been played out so many times. Philip vs. the Templars sounds an awful lot like Henry VIII vs. the Catholic church.

I've read quite a few Templar based stories (I've been meaning to get to Jack Whyte's Knights of the Black and White, because I loved his Arthurian tales), but I'm not sure I really care why the historical Templars were destroyed.

I'm not sure there isn't such a ray.

When he sees Dr. Wagner in Paris, Wagner ends the session with "You're crazy." What psychotherapist would say that? If he's genuine, he'd never come right out and say it, and if he's the charlatan that he probably is, he'd want to keep Casaubon on the hook for more sessions.

Which leads me to the very Ecoesque conclusion that Casaubon is, in fact, crazy. And, therefore, there's no reason to believe that anybody is after him. Of course, even paranoids have enemies.

The other detail, of course, is that all the characters at the Conservatoire are either people Casaubon knows, or from the circus poster he saw in the occult shop (plus the security guards from the Conservatoire). Seems suspect.

Well said.

Traveller wrote: "if the Templars were really built around the bloodline of Jesus and the French kings derived from that bloodline, why would that king try to destroy them? "

Because kings in general, and possibly French kings in particular, were always quite big on things like fratricide!

Traveller wrote: "Hold on a moment! I've been starting to become more and more suspicious... about these 'quotes' at the start of the chapters..."

I finally finished the book last night. There was, in the end, exactly one chapter heading that seemed suspect (114). It's impossible to fact check, as it claims to be a "private letter". It is probably the longest chapter heading, and it seems just too convenient.

Ruth wrote: "As for your first link, Traveller, I love the trivia bit at the end: The English expression "to curry Fauvel", (now to "curry favor") arose from a scene in the Roman de Fauvel which potentates des..."

I'd read that, and really didn't think it anything to do with the title actually cited by Eco. It's a morality play about a horse. How does that relate to Templars? Apparently, according to Traveller's references, though, it does. I'm not really surprised that the 'u' might get dropped out of Fauvel. We're talking about a 14th century manuscript. English spellings didn't settle down for many centuries after that.

I thought the "curry favour" reference seemed likely to be poor folk etymology, given that "curry" and "fauve" are given as synonyms in the wikipedia article.

Looking at that quote again, I think I probably read a bit much into it. I read "Alessandro Cagliostro or the Count of St. Germain" as " Cagliostro AKA the Count of St. Germain", where it probably meant "either… Cagliostro or … St. Germain", but still there's a connection, even if not an identity.

Oh, FHS, it gets even more complicated. Following links, I find attributed to St-Germain: "La Très Sainte Trinosophie, The Most Holy Trinosophia, or The Most Holy Threefold Wisdom, is a French esoteric book, allegedly authored by Alessandro Cagliostro or the Count of St. Germain"

I don't imagine it's really necessary to investigate further to ascertain that this is the same Cagliostro that Eco has already mentioned more than once.

I just suddenly made a connection, not apparently related to anything I've actually recently read (I've just finished chapter 51).

Way back, before Casaubon even worked for Garamond, we met Ardenti, who disappeared after talking to an 'expert' named Rakosky. Then Casaubon goes to Brazil and meets Aglié who doesn't quite pretend to be the Comte de Saint-Germain, who anyone familiar with the legends of Saint-Germain would recognize also goes by the name of Rákóczi (or variant spellings). And we know Aglié has a local residence.

Coinky-dink? I think not.

Finally found my way back to this thread to update my digging into the chapter headings. I was trying to find out if I had actually interpreted the heading to chapter 13 correctly:
Li Frere, Li Mestre du Temple
Qu'estoient rempli et ample
D'or et d'argent et de richesse
Et qui menoient tel noblesse
Ou sont ils? que sont devenu?

Which I pretty much correctly translated as:
The brothers, the masters of the Temple
who were fat and filled
with gold and silver and riches
and who led such a noble life.
Where are they now? What has happened to them?

So, it's a song by a band called Ataraxia, defined by wikipedia as: "an Italian neoclassical Goth opera band" (does that have any more meaningful semantic content than "band"?) They recorded it after the publication of Foucault's Pendulum, so it doesn't mean much for it's veracity.

Eco says it's from the Chronique a la suite du roman de Favel. Any references to that seem to lead back to Eco.

Oh! We missed his birthday. Eco turned 82 on Sunday.

There are those who claim Google is making us stupider (not my word!) but I can't help wondering how smart Google makes Eco look!

Traveller wrote: "The problem might be that I'm reading an ebook which is a conversion of a conversion."

I'm reading from the authorized e-book publication, and it's still got some odd quirks.

Traveller wrote: "Hold on a moment! I've been starting to become more and more suspicious... about these 'quotes' at the start of the chapters... I'm starting to suspect that these are just made up. I think that E..."

Well, the one I tried to check (I was actually just looking for a translation of something that didn't seem quite French) turned out to be a full verse of a song that I'm certain was recorded after this book was published: so it could have been cribbed from Eco! I'll dig that up when the cat gets off my lap :-) I think they're genuine, though. Certainly the names and books cited exist, so I doubt he'd make up the content.

Ruth wrote: "OMG, They are here, today, in the very area in which I live (well, not exactly as Sweden has distanced herself somewhat from the EU)."

They're probably here, too, but my eyes glaze too much when I try to read something like that. Like Traveller, innoculated to such things early in life.

Casaubon's relationship with Amparo seems to be just like the rest of his life. He follows her to Brazil, not because he's in love (I don't think he ever said that), but just because he'd graduated and had nothing better to do. When she takes off, he's slightly unsettled by the actual experience at the umbando, but he's not at all concerned about her leaving. It reminds me of one of my own early romantic experiences. I got Dear Johned while working a few thousand kilometers from her, and while I was slightly hurt my major feelings were along the lines of "I was just waiting for that, I never understood what she saw in me anyway…." I actually found Amparo's actions less understandable—but then we aren't given any insight at all into her after the umbando.
"Are you with me?"
"To the end of time."
And then she wasn't.

Then he goes back to Italy, and seems almost unconcerned with making a living. Setting up as a "cultural investigator" seems just typical Casaubon: a profession that would have had very little demand even then, and absolutely none now that we have the Internet. Of course, he was putting bread on the table by writing theses for students, which is apparently still profitable today even with the Internet. "But nowadays all you needed was information: everybody was greedy for information…" Plus ça change!

Traveller wrote: "Heh heh, I'm sure that if you took the height of the pyramidion and multiplied it by certain numbers and divided it by other numbers, then you'd get the depth of the sea in various places, the distance between Stonehenge and Easter Island, …"

Exactly—the same thing I said about the numerology when Diotallevi first starts encouraging Ardenti.

There are certain numbers and ratios in architecture that have significance, like the golden ratio, and there are provable relationships in things like stone circles where one can see that year after year the same astronomical sightings can be made, but this sort of thing is setting your conclusions before your premise.

"He does envy Mr Tom Brooks though, who with 1500 locations, had almost twice as much data to pull meaningless patterns from."

ROFL!

Studying KFC or McDonalds lacks the interest of historicity that one sees in a study of the ancient Woolies cult, though.

Traveller wrote: "Who the heck are The Assassins even?"

Sorry, I meant to respond to this at the time. I'm only about a month and a half late.

"The Assassins" are the Hashshashins, Ismailis and the followers (at the time of most of the events described in the book) of Rashid ad-Din Sinan, the Old Man of the Mountain. He (and they) were significant players during the Crusades, and would be well known to the Templars.

Ruth wrote: "I will have to pass on these authors. We have Calvino in French and library has all three but only in Swedish. I am not good enough in either language to read this kind of book."

Murakami, at least, must be available in epubs.

Dolors wrote: "My intake of it was that Amparo, having considered herself an European at heart (a materialistic Marxist) and being an sceptic of her Brazilian heritage, she felt ashamed after becoming possessed in the ceremony and that's why she left Casaubon. I guess she had to struggle against an inner conflict: imposed reason or natural mysticism."

I'm cheating a bit because I'm just getting to that point, but I'll point out that her shame actually begins before the ceremony when she says to Aglié "I forgot my own country and my own race…"