Larry’s
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(group member since Nov 23, 2020)
Larry’s
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from the Nonfiction Reading - Only the Best group.
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Carol, you are not nit-picking at all. I feel very similar about the importance of the accuracy of a translation.For others, I'll simply repeat what I said above ... along with the NEH link.
Here's a really good article on certain aspects of the translation problem of Russian works. It focuses on Pevear and Volokhonsky but also talks about Constance Garnett, who translated about 80 (?) Russian books a century ago and who is still acclaimed by many.
https://www.neh.gov/humanities/2013/m...
But I'll add a link to a 2005 article in the New Yorker by David Remnick about this same matter of Russian translation... and indeed translation in general (as seen in the paragraph I quote below) For those who don't have access to it, you can share your email with the New Yorker and then read the article.
"Poor Mrs. Garnett! Translators suffer a thankless and uneasy afterlife. (Or they never get that far: until the King James commission, English translators of the Bible were sometimes burned at the stake or strangled—or, as in the case of William York Tyndale, both.) Translators are, for eternity, sent up, put down, nitpicked, and, finally, overturned. The objects of their attentions dread their ministrations. Cervantes complained that reading a translation was “like looking at the Flanders tapestries from behind: you can see the basic shapes but they are so filled with threads that you cannot fathom their original lustre.” And yet they persevere: here comes Edith Grossman, four centuries later, quixotically encountering the Don and his Sancho on behalf of a new generation of English readers."
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...
Translations do matter a lot ... up to a point. In the first story, IN THE CART, in the Yarmolinsky translation used by Saunder in the second paragraph, we have this sentence: "Winter, evil, dark, long, had ended so recently; spring had arrived suddenly; but neither the warmth nor the languid, transparent woods, warmed by the breath of spring, nor the black flocks flying in the fields over huge puddles that were like lakes, nor this marvelous, immeasurably deep sky, into which it seemed that one would plunge with such joy, offered anything new and interesting to Marya Vasilyevna, who was sitting in the cart."
In the Garnett translation I'm using, we have the following: "Winter, dark, long, and spiteful, was hardly over; spring had come all of a sudden. But neither the warmth nor the languid transparent woods, warmed by the breath of spring, nor the black flocks of birds flying over the huge puddles that were like lakes, nor the marvelous fathomless sky, into which it seemed one would have gone away so joyfully, presented anything new or interesting to Marya Vassilyevna who was sitting in the cart.
Chekhov, Anton. Delphi Complete Works of Anton Chekhov (Illustrated) (p. 4198). Delphi Classics. Kindle Edition. "
I'll mention just one word. I don't know the Russian word, but Yarmolinsky translates it as "evil" while Garnett chooses "spiteful."
I'll just say this. I think that the difference is obviously important, but it is not crucial in what Saunders is trying to do, which is to show how these short stories work as short stories. I suppose you could find an instance where things do indeed hinge upon the translation of a word or of several words, and I also believe that good translations are better than bad translations, but I still think that overall, any translations that we choose are going to work as we follow Saunders through his mini-course/book.
Oh ... and these thoughts to me as I pondered Carol's thoughts about the word "mir."
John wrote: "That’s great to hear, Larry. And I have to thank Sher for reminding me about Stallings’ poems again. I have three of her four books. She is from Decatur, Georgia and studied at the University of Georgia. I believe she lives in Greece these days and does a lot of translations, along with her poetry. ..."John, I just read an interview with her. It's on Scribd and I'm not sure that I can share it. But I'll try.
Sher, here you go ... all seven are listed ... along with the versions he's reading (with some strange formatting for quotation marks in that section) ...CHEKHOV - IN THE CART
TURGENEV - THE SINGER
CHEKHOV - THE DARLING
TOLSTOY - MASTER AND MAN
GOLGOL - THE NOSE
CHEKHOV - GOOSEBERRIES
TOLSTOY - ALOYSHA THE POT
Texts
Chekhov, Anton. “In the Cart.†In The Portable Chekhov . Translated by Avrahm Yarmolinsky. New York: Viking Portable Library, 1975.
Turgenev, Ivan. “The Singers.†In First Love and Other Tales. Translated by David Magarshack. New York: W. W. Norton, 1968.
Chekhov, Anton. “The Darling.†In The Portable Chekhov. Translated by Avrahm Yarmolinsky. New York: Viking Portable Library, 1975.
Tolstoy, Leo. “Master and Man.†In Great Short Works of Leo Tolstoy. Translated by Louise Maude and Aylmer Maude. New York: Perennial Library, 1967.
Gogol, Nikolai. “The Nose.†In The Overcoat and Other Short Stories. Translated by Mary Struve. Mineola, N.Y.: Dover Thrift Editions, 1992.
Chekhov, Anton. “Gooseberries.†In The Portable Chekhov. Translated by Avrahm Yarmolinsky. New York: Viking Portable Library, 1975.
Tolstoy, Leo. “Alyosha the Pot.†In The Portable Twentieth-Century Russian Reader. Translated by Clarence Brown. New York: Penguin Classics, 1985.
John, I ordered used copies of Like: Poems and Hapax. I knew nothing about the poetry of Stallings until Sher posted that poem and then you talked about her!
Carol wrote: "Will be interested to read everyone's comments. Have always really enjoyed Russian literature, although it is often a bit grim. I much prefer Chekhov's short stories to his plays. David Magarshack ..."Just great comments, Carol. I do hope that you will join us in this discussion.
(The word for peace is 'mir'. It is also the word for 'world' which might seem somewhat strange to some people!). Languages are funny, aren't they. The Danes have no separate word for wood. They just use the word for tree whenever they refer to wood.
See this following article ... it actually doesn't have that bit of trivia about Danish ... but it led me to it ... somehow:
There’s no such thing as a tree (phylogenetically)
https://eukaryotewritesblog.com/2021/...
Here's a really good article on certain aspects of the translation problem of Russian works. It focuses on Pevear and Volokhonsky but also talks about Constance Garnett, who translated about 80 (?) Russian books a century ago and who is still acclaimed by many.https://www.neh.gov/humanities/2013/m...
Sher wrote: "Larry- I ordered a copy of the book , and I am wondering -- are the stories in the book, or do we need to find them separately? Sounds like we need to find a copy of each story, but please let me k..."Parts of the stories are in the book, but only parts. So you really do need to find them separately. I bet they are all in the public domain, so Gutenberg may be one option.
For Kindle owners, I just recommend buying the Delphi Collected Works for each of these authors. Like this one: https://www.amazon.com/Delphi-Complet... for only $1.99
Let me mention that I was very surprised right at the beginning when Saunders is describing the course that only six students are admitted ... out of "an applicant pool of six and seven hundred." That seems incredibly elitist but I actually accept that Saunders is trying to work intensively with the students that are admitted over a three year period. And overall, I think he is the opposite of elitist in how he wants to share his thoughts about Russian short stories and how they work as short stories by means of this book.
Sher, I think it would be hard indeed to follow all of this without a copy of the book in front of you.On the subject of copies of the short stories ...
I bought Delphi Collected Books of all the authors for my Kindle, e.g. the Delphi Complete Works of Anton Chekov. Each was no more than $2.99. Many of the translations are older ones but still pretty good ... I think. One other interesting thing about these books aught me by surprise. The very first story discussed is called "In the Cart" by the translation that Saunders uses, but the Delphi book calls this same story "The Schoolmistress." After trying to kind that short story and failing, I searched on the name of the protagonist, "Marya Vassilyevna," to find it.
A review from THE WEEK (UK edition) of Marianne Faithfull's latest album ... in which she recites her favorite poems. It's available from music streaming services now."This album features an ageing pop star reciting a selection of her favourite 19th century poems – Byron, Shelley, Keats – while her muso mates conjure an “ambient odyssey” in the background. That might sound like a “bum-clenchingly awful vanity project”, said Helen Brown in The Independent – but when the pop star is the “formidable” Marianne Faithfull and her pals are Warren Ellis, Nick Cave and Brian Eno, you know you’re in for something good. Faithfull makes these “200-year-old visions of beauty, love and death feel as urgent as the latest true-crime podcast”. And the backing – a misty soundscape of waves, birdsong, electronica, street sounds, piano and cello – turns the album into an “unsentimental spine-tingler”.
Ellis’s “beautiful” settings and Faithfull’s “impeccable” readings make even the most familiar texts sound fresh, agreed Phil Mongredien in The Observer. Faithfull contracted the coronavirus during the making of the album, and spent three weeks in intensive care. We are lucky to have her, and this gorgeous, stirring record."
theweeuk210515_article_032_02_01
Marianne Faithfull with Warren Ellis: She Walks in Beauty BMG £22.99
It ends with a Japanese tourist at the Great Falls (I think) giving Adam Driver a book. A very satisfying ending.
Environmental scientists and people who follow environmental issues are certainly aware of many of these problems. The rapidly falling male fertility rates--with a lot of the decrease apparently tied to plastic exposure and consumption--certainly will get more and more attention.There are people who are protesting plastic contamination a good bit and they are having some minimal effects. At home, we stopped storing leftover food in plastic containers about five years ago. Sort of our own "Think globally, act locally" action.
Carol, unfortunately the plastic particles are so small that only chemical analysis reveals them.
John wrote: "Here is one by William Carlos Williams. His shorter poems always had a haiku quality to them. This one is really good and I love the idea of green glass alit in a place where nothing could grow.B..."
It's a good one, John.
Carol,The intrusion of plastic into every nook and cranny of our Earth is terrible. We stopped buying sea salt after I read about the presence of microparticles of plastic in it.
Larry
John wrote: "I did not know what thread to ask this question, so I thought I would ask here.Although this is fiction, I am curious if anyone here has read Robinson Crusoe, and, if so, did you like it?
I have..."
John, I read it perhaps 35 years ago and greatly enjoyed it. I like what Kenneth Rexroth says about it in his More Classics Revisited:
"Samuel Johnson said that Don Quixote, The Pilgrim's Progress, and Robinson Crusoe were the only three books a mature man wished were longer. In his time he was close to being right. Robinson Crusoe may still be the greatest English novel. Surely it is written with a mastery that has never been surpassed. It is not only as convincing as real life. It is as deep and as superficial as direct experience itself. The learned but incorrigibly immature will never see in it anything but a well-written boys’ story interspersed with out-of-date moralizing, best cut out when it is published as an illustrated juvenile. Others will believe that Defoe placed himself on record just this once as an unneurotic Kierkegaard, others as a critic before hand of Montesquieu and Rousseau; still others will see Crusoe as the archetype of Economic Man. The book is all these things and more. It is what Defoe intended, a true life narrative."
POETRY FOR THE DAY (7 May 2021)Spring
by Gerard Manley Hopkins
Nothing is so beautiful as Spring—
When weeds, in wheels, shoot long and lovely and lush;
Thrush’s eggs look little low heavens, and thrush
Through the echoing timber does so rinse and wring
The ear, it strikes like lightnings to hear him sing;
The glassy peartree leaves and blooms, they brush
The descending blue; that blue is all in a rush
With richness; the racing lambs too have fair their fling.
What is all this juice and all this joy?
A strain of the earth’s sweet being in the beginning
In Eden garden.—Have, get, before it cloy,
Before it cloud, Christ, lord, and sour with sinning,
Innocent mind and Mayday in girl and boy,
Most, O maid’s child, thy choice and worthy the winning.
SOURCE: https://www.garrisonkeillor.com/radio...
I watched the movie, PATERSON, yesterday (on Prime Video). Adam Driver plays a bus driver named Paterson living in Paterson, NJ who writes poetry in a notebook. He has a supportive girlfriend (who I think is meant to be Latina even though she is portrayed by an Iranian-American actress) who aspires to be a country & western singer and also to make money from creating and selling beautiful cupcakes. There are large stretches of the movie that could be described a slow, but a lot goes on in that slowness. It's a lovely, deep, little film. It's about poetry in life in several ways and has a very fulfilling ending.
