Zoe’s Comments (group member since Jul 07, 2013)

Zoe’s comments from the Ask Carol McGrath group.

Carol wrote: "Welcome Elizabeth who is a superb novelist writing currently in the 12th century and who is exceptionally knowledgeable about William the Conqueror , the Marshall family and medieval women includin..."

Has Elizabeth studied the life of the 11th century lady warrior, Isabelle the Montfort? Orderic Vitalis was quite smitten by her.

A contemporary of Isabelle's and Alan's was Matilda of Tuscany (1046 – 24 July 1115). See, e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matilda.... She is remembered for her military accomplishments: she fought the Holy Roman Emperor for many years, often losing battles but never losing heart; finally, she drove him out of Italy. Her legacy was the ensuing era of the self-governing Italian City States.

Carol wrote: "Very interesting. I think many of us a real mix. By the way Zoe do you know Count Alan's colours etc?"

Yes: Gold and Azure Checks for the House of Rennes, with an Ermine surcoat for Brittany. The depiction of his colours in the paintings of the granting of Richmondshire (e.g. in an illustrated book in the British Library) is accurate: see http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/online....

The gold and azure checks as a coat-of-arms were borne by Alan's paternal grandfather Duke Geoffrey I, who married Hawise sister of Duke Richard II of Normandy, thus making the first step toward the Breton-Norman alliance; this was cemented when Richard I married Geoffrey's sister, Judith of Brittany.

The Bretons were into this heraldic business quite early: as perhaps the first nation-state to emerge from the falling Western Roman Empire, they were keen to emphasise their separate identity, while welcoming as many refugees and disgruntled Roman soldiers and citizens as possible to boost their population and military strength. In the latter 400s, they were quite "notorious" for harbouring fleeing slaves.

By the way, the motto of Rennes (Roazhon in Breton) is "Live in harmony". Rennes has a tradition of timber-framed (so-called "Tudor" style) houses: see http://www.tourisme-rennes.com/en/arc....

Kathleen wrote: There are large pockets of matches which indicate Pyrenees?

Some years ago, when I first heard the suggestion that there was an ancient “Atlantic culture” bridging peoples from the British Isles to Spain and perhaps as far as Morocco, I was very sceptical because it didn’t fit into the traditional Norse/Germanic vs Celtic vs Mediterranean division I had learnt from history books.

But when I researched the genealogical roots of the leading families of western Europe, I noticed that there was a long-established pattern of intermarriage, particularly between the Irish Sea, Celtic Sea, English Channel and Bay of Biscay. In short, the British, Gauls and Basques had been trading and mingling for a long time.

More recently, there have been DNA studies suggesting that the British and the Basques are especially close.

The Breton and Irish understandings of their histories affirm this.

Carol wrote: "I wonder to what extent there is Viking blood as well as Celtic in the Breton world. An expert on the Normans is Trevor Rowley whose Bayeux Tapestry course I took in Oxford and who has written book..."

I suppose the Loire Vikings would have contributed some DNA during the 30 years they were in Brittany. How much of course depends on how numerous they were.

Nicky wrote: ...the bishop of Durham, William of St Calais was far more likely to have been the driving force behind Domesday Book..."

Good points, of which I was already aware but had neglected; I should investigate Roffe's evidence more closely.

It is true also that the Bishop of Durham made his own survey at some point. (Perhaps I am thinking of the survey conducted, on the model of Domesday, for Hugh du Puiset, Bishop of Durham, in 1183. Was there none before that?)

The connection with Domesday is interesting, because I read that Durham wasn't technically part of William's realm.

I'm reminded of the occasion when the Bishop of Durham was in dispute with the King of England (was it William I or II?) and Alan Rufus and a couple of other lords went up to the Bishop's (castle?) and stood outside it for days, begging him to be reconciled with the King.

Carol wrote: "...Alan...was a soldier first and foremost..."

"Up to a point, Minister." His known activities at Boston, and his implied activities in London, Durham and Ayrshire indicate that diplomacy and trade were perhaps more important to him than the winning of battles: after all, win for what purpose? To create an environment conducive to making wealth, of course!

Having said that, he and his family surely could fight! Everyone who's studied 12th and 13th century England has heard of Sir William Marshal, "the greatest knight", as Archbishop Stephen Langton called him. But did you know who trained him? It was William Tancarville, a grandson of Alan's youngest brother Stephen, Count of Treguier. Marshal still bore the Tancarville livery for some years after going solo.

That Bretons have a fine military reputation is recognised by France having its premier naval and army officer academies both in Brittany. Many Constables of France were Breton.

Brittany was also rich: when King Henry IV of France was on his way from Navarre to Paris to be crowned, he took a detour through Vitre on the Breton side of the border, and he was wowed: he said that had he not become King of France, he would have chosen to be a bourgeois in Vitre.

Martin wrote: "...The Normans were certainly world changers, Vikings with edge and sophistication. Glad that I only have to read and write about them. They'd scare me witless. ..."

Although the Viking patriline is celebrated, the Normans were mostly of Armorican descent.

The genealogy of the Norman Dukes (surely the most proudly Viking of all the Normans) makes for interesting reading: turns out that Rollo and Gunnor (presumed Danish, but born near the Breton border) are the only Scandinavians in it. Most of the Dukes' mothers were native Armoricans, such as Duke William I's Breton wife Sprota.

Norman French was basically Gallo with some Norse words added, moreover only the north-eastern Normans spoke it: the rest spoke pure Gallo, like the locals.

Alan Rufus was also descended from Rollo and from Duke William I, but both his patriline and his matriline were Breton, so that was his self-identity.

Alan was even richer than the Domesday Book indicates, because being a wise Breton, he did not rely on rental only, but was heavily into trade. To their credit, his heirs did not squander his fortune, but invested it: it's possible to trace some of his wealth down to the present day.

Kathleen wrote: "... ethnocentric in their marriage patterns ..."

That's so true of my family tree also: despite their predominant Anglicanism, they gravitated toward British and Irish Celts (not minding Presbyterians or the occasional Roman Catholic), with a few Norwegians and Germans tossed in for variety.

Carol wrote: "I am thrilled to read all this. There are characters I have introduced into fiction such as Enisant Musard whom I did not know was Alan's relation. Also was Alan initially buried at Bury St Edmund ..."

The best information I have is that he was buried opposite the south door at Bury St Edmund's, but St Mary's York, regarding him as its founder, petitioned to have his body moved there; I recall reading that they were successful.

Of what did he die? Was it Anselm's Curse? Hardly, but I don't know. I came across a brief statement in a (presumably unreliable) genealogy stating that he died at Plouigneau in Finisterre in Brittany, but what was he doing there in 1093?

It's curious that King Malcolm, Alan and his brother Geoffrey all died in the latter half of 1093: Malcolm in battle in northern England, Alan by means unknown (in western Brittany, if that genealogist correct), and Geoffrey in battle (in eastern Brittany, if I recall correctly).

Incidentally, regarding whether there is strong documentary evidence of Alan's presence at Hastings, Katherine Keats-Rohan's PASE site (pase.ac.uk) records that Alan witnessed a charter of King William's in England in 1067. William was rarely in England that year (we're told he was mostly swanning around Normandy on triumphal tour while rebellions brewed in Britain), so that helps us pin down when Alan was in England. It's pretty convincing that Alan was important in England already (probably as a King's Counsellor), which means he had to have been a commander at Hastings.

If it's true that Alan chose Gunnhild over Edith of Scotland at Wilton Abbey in 1093, one reason may simply have been their ages: Alan was in his fifties, whereas Edith was scarcely thirteen (13), but Gunnhild was about thirty (30). Perhaps he was not hoping for progeny, nor even to cement an alliance with Malcolm against Northumbria, but rather seeking a companion, a mature woman of enough years to make intelligent conversation with.

Before I forget, the evidence that the still youthful Count Alan was an early and important companion of King William's (and therefore was probably at Hastings) is not only the word of Wace, Gaimar and his own family, but also that he was a witness to a charter by King William in England in 1067, a year which William spent mostly in Normandy, it's said on triumphal procession.

It therefore seems reasonably likely that in 1067 Alan already had either property or personal interests in England.

Katherine Keats-Rohan (I think it was) wrote that before 1066 Alan acquired some property in Rouen. I had previously read that he owned Richemont in far Upper Normandy (hence "Richmond" in Yorkshire).

Richemont is close to Aumale, where King William's sister Adelaide was Countess. During the Conquest, Adelaide obtained land in England also close by that which Alan had gained from Edeva the Fair/Rich (Edith Swannesha) and near Bourn where Alan's sister Matilda had married Walter d'Aincourt the Lord of Derby in 1065.

Perhaps Adelaide, Alan, Walter, Matilda and Edeva had formed a circle of friends? It would make a nice thread in a tale of the times, and would tie in neatly with Alan's other activities.

Martin wrote: "Zoe, do you happen to know when Robert of Mortain attempted a raid on Fougeres? I hope it's not as late as 1091 as I shall have to rewrite some of my current novel.

Martin"

Robert, Count of Mortain, died on 8 December 1090, so your hard work is safe!

This brings to my attention that Count Alan Rufus, though he died probably in his 50s, outlasted his leading colleagues at Hastings: King William (who died trying to conquer France in 1087), Bishop Odo (who died 1097 but was neutralized, having been imprisoned in 1082 and defeated and exiled 1088) and Count Robert (beaten in 1088 but forgiven).

Sorry for taking up so much space on this, but the Tweed family history keeps linking back to Alan Rufus.

Cheveley has the Darley racehorse stud, and has many of Newmarket's studs around it. Unsurprisingly, the Tweeds love horse-riding.

They also love order: John Tweed required newspapers to be refolded neatly after reading.

The soldiers in the family, of which there are many, have a knack of surviving battles, even the wretched Somme. My great-uncle Temporary Corporal Darcy Tweed had already been wounded in action several times, but when he saw a gap in the front lines he was so offended by this visible evidence of disorder that he led his platoon to fill the gap, in the process overrunning two German machine-gun emplacements and capturing numerous enemy soldiers. The army was then able to take a long-sought-after strategic hill near Villers-Bretonneux. They only held it a few days before a major German offensive drove them away, but it was still a famous, albeit temporary, victory. For his part, Darcy was awarded a Military Medal.

Tweeds were also engaged in politics: one Captain Thomas Tweed (also a hero of the Somme) was Lloyd George's most successful campaign manager.

In America, Tweeds intermarried with the Winthrops (remember Count Alan Road in Winthrop, Skegness, Lincolnshire?) of Massachusetts, and in New York at least twice with the family of President Theodore Roosevelt: the Roosevelt family historian is Tweed Roosevelt, son of Katherine Winthrop Tweed, daughter of Harrison Tweed, an eminent lawyer (with Milbank, Tweed) who worked on Civil Rights for President John F. Kennedy and was also the lawyer for the Rockefeller family trust; Harrison was described as "the most democratic of aristocrats".

Putting it all together, I fancy I can see in the Tweed family history a continuation of Count Alan Rufus's activities, and more than a little of his character.

This brings us to my mother's side. Her father was Thomas George Kitchen; his father Joseph was born in Germoe in Cornwall, and married mary Ann Degnan of London. The Kitchens are recorded as living in the same area of Cornwall since 1600, but before this they would have been surnamed "Kegin" (Cornish for Kitchen).

My maternal grandmother was Ellen May Tweed. Her father John was born in Duxford, Cambridgeshire; he married Rebecca Malone, whose father Joseph was from Tullamore in King's County (Offaly) in Ireland.

John Tweed's father William was born in Stetchworth, Cambridgeshire; his father Frederick, and ancestors going back to 1400, in Cheveley, Cambridgeshire.

Now, what's interesting is that all these Cambridgeshire towns, as well as those where their spouses were born, had been held by Alan Rufus (probably since 1067). Cheveley, the family seat, is where Enisant Musard (Enisandus Musardus de Ploveno), one of Alan's brothers-in-law, was lord; Alan brought Enisant up to Richmond to be Constable and gave him a bunch of towns to govern.

Also interesting is that in the early 1800s' English censuses, the Tweed surname was found heavily concentrated, in similar numbers, in Cambridgeshire, Essex, Suffolk and Yorkshire. Alan Rufus had many properties in those counties, and he seems to made his his first acquisitions in Cambridgeshire.

In the corresponding Scottish census, Tweeds were found exclusively in Ayrshire, where Bretons, such as the Stewarts, settled very early in large numbers. (I suspect that Alan had already made arrangements with Malcolm III to permit this.)

"Tweed" is known to be a word of ancient British origin, but there is uncertaintly about its meaning. Most people think that the surname Tweed must refer to the Tweed River, but no people of that surname resided in or near its valley until the later 1800s.

In the family, it's asserted that the Tweed River is named after them! Is this plausible?

Perhaps it is. In Leicestershire in central England, the river that the Mercians had called "Bare Wella" (Boar Stream) was renamed "Tweed".

Surely the Bretons (e.g. Alan) were responsible for this name-change: they also renamed the Old North Road, fomerly "Earningas Street", as "Ermine Street", after Brittany's national emblem.

The plot thickens, because close by Leicestershire's River Tweed is Simon de Montfort Football Park, named after the Earl of Leicester who instituted the first sovereign, elected Parliament. The Montforts were lords of Montfort near Paris, but later became Dukes of Brittany.

But why choose the name "Tweed"? Maybe it was because the Bretons had many ancestors from Wales (from Powys and Gwynedd), as well as from Cornwall. In Welsh "Twyd" (Cornish and Breton "Tud") means "family, clan, kin or people".

This word is believed by linguists to have changed little since Proto-Indo-European, some 5000 or more years ago, which is why similar forms such as "Tuath", "Theodric" (which means "leader of the people", corresponding to Welsh "Twydr" and English "Tudor") and "Theoden" were used by the Irish, Goths and Bavarians. The German given name "Dietrich" and their language name "Deutsch" have the same derivation.

Alan Rufus's caput in Norfolk, "Costessey Manor", is in the Tud River valley, near Norwich and Tuddenham. As we've seen, "Tud" is a Breton and Cornish word for "people". The question is whether, like that of the Ouse, the name survived the Anglo-Saxon era, or whether the Bretons renamed it as they did the Cam (formerly Granta).

William Foy married Emma Bryant, whose parents George Bryant and Ann Legg were born in Kilmersdon, Somerset.

Historians claim that Kilmersdon is a Saxon placename, but the "Kil" looks suspiciously Celtic.

Emma (perhaps born 1827 in Bristol) described herself in official documents as "English and Welsh".

The Chapmans are another maritime family, who claimed to have originated as sea traders from Stockholm in Sweden. This is plausible as you'll soon see.

There is a Chapman family in Whitby, Yorkshire, recorded as having resided there (with that surname) since the 300s, so they must have been among the first Angles to migrate across the North Sea.

In Whitby, they built ships, funded by their own Chapman Bank (which by a series of mergers became part of Barclays).

Lieutenant Thomas Chapman, born near Whitby in 1679, was in the British fleet that captured Gibraltar. He married Susannah Colson, daughter of the London shipwright William Colson.

Thomas and Susannah moved to Gothenburg shipyards in Sweden, presumably as part of a British policy to help an ally defend itself in its simultaneous wars against Germany and Russia.

Their son, Fredrik Henrik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fredrik_...) was born there, and became Sweden's leading naval architect, a Vice-Admiral, a mathematician, and a member of the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences.

My great-great-grandfather (born before 1830, I guess) was the seafarer (and alleged Swedish merchant sailing ship owner and captain) Charles Chapman. His wife was Elizabeth Carmichael (a nice Celtic name).

Charles paradoxically drowned in the yacht "Unique" which foundered on a sandbar outside Port Adelaide in South Australia on New Year's Eve 1860.

Charles's father's name was Henry, for whom I have no other records.

Kathleen wrote: "I am about 3/4 Irish and essentially Norman Irish as they were proscribed from marrying native Irish for centuries.. That is what they did,they fought and worked in military occupations. They were seneshals, justiciars, knights, soldiers, blacksmiths OR they were priests, nuns or bishops..."

On both parents' sides I'm about 1/2 Irish and 1/2 British. If I may, I'll go into some detail, as the stories behind this admixture are, in some measure, historically relevant.

Patrilineally I'm a Driscoll, who were high chiefs of the Dairine, an Eireann tribe related to the O'Neill high kings. The House of Dunkeld, who gave rise to Malcolm III and are thereby ancestral to the Royal Family, proudly claimed descent from the Dairine, which makes me feel a little superior. :)

From Cork, the Driscolls operated as sealords: they charged taxes on those who used the sealanes to Ireland's south.

Driscolls often marry Tobins. The Tobins came from Upper Normandy but bear a name recalling the Breton Saint Aubyn. The Tobins resided for a time in their manor "Place Barton" in Ashton in Devon, a property that's nowadays popular for weddings. Subsequently, the Tobins moved to central Ireland, where they became famously "more Irish than the Irish" and more trouble, too: after all, how does a common English soldier arrest a member of the House of Lords who is defended by his own soldiers in Ireland?

My grandfather was John Bartlett Driscoll, born in Queen Charlotte's Maternity Hospital (for orphans and the destitute) in Marylebone, London, so his father, Daniel, a mariner, evidently did not live to see his son. John Driscoll's mother Jane Lannin remarried to the London shipwright John Tobin, who lived in Poplar, a very Cockney locality: but what's odd is that JBD was baptised in St John's Wood and some other family members in Westminster!

My Driscoll and Tobin ancestors were Anglican: there's a record of a Driscoll living in London during Henry VIII's time. Moreover, those I know of best were active, even prominent, Freemasons.

John Tobin later brought the family to the Newcastle shipyards and lived in Wallsend (hello, Hadrian!).

During the depression of the 1890s, JBD took ship to Australia; nearly 20 years later he married Annie Chapman, the eldest grand-daughter of William Foy, the Superintendant of Lights at the entrance to Port Phillip Bay, Australia's busiest harbour. Mr Foy worked closely with George Tobin, who founded the Port Phillip Sea Pilots. (So I've always wondered whether George was related to John Tobin.)

William Foy (looking suspiciously like another of those Norman-Irish names) was born in Rockingham, Northern Ireland, and his son William Cuthbert Foy was a naval architect.

Carol wrote: "Also it is important to acknowledge English written language and poetry. English embroidery was famous. England had beautiful objects and huge wealth. The Normans lacked a secular literature until we come to Anglo-Norman poetry, the beginning of English romance writing by the end of the eleventh century. But the change did bring Romanesque architecture which I personally admire. The castles became marvellous in time but at first they must have caused huge disruption in towns. Poor people always suffered!..."

The Anglo-Saxons had come a long way since they first landed in Britain. Those locals they had not killed, they married, so a rich hybrid culture emerged, led by Anglo-British kings like Cerdic.

But let's not forget that in the meanwhile the British refugees in Wales, Cornwall and Armorica were creating great literary works such as a 6th century treatise on botany (a sign that scientific learning was still valued), tales of Arthur and Tristram (which gave rise to the medieval romances), and Breton lays (which influenced fine court literature and music).

Armorica, as understood by the local peoples, was the land between the Loire and Seine rivers, which included Brittany, Anjou, Maine, Touraine, and what would later become known as Normandy. The dominant language was (until compulsory mass education in French brought about its decline in the early 20th century) a beautifully melodious Gallo-Roman dialect simply called Gallo.

Armorica, especially Brittany, became so rich by sea and river trade with Ireland and Britain, France and Spain, and probably North Africa, Italy, Byzantium and the North Sea ports of the Netherlands and Germany, that the mighty Franks became intensely jealous.

Armorica also had a fine tradition of embroidery. George Beech has proposed that at least some of the Bayeux Tapestry was made in Anjou's Benedictine Abbey of St. Florent of Saumur, which was financially supported by the Breton Dukes and Counts.

Early Romanesque castles in England were built by Breton artisans brought in by Alan Rufus: he's thought to have built the first "Norman" stone castle.

Richmond Castle made a lonely sight over the Swale valley, so Alan built a town to keep it company: Richmond, "the Jewel of the North", a place so lovely that "Richmond" has become the most popular English-language place-name.

Judging by the land-holdings in Richmondshire as recorded in the Domesday Book, the purpose of Alan's numerous castles was not so much to intimidate the English, but rather more to deter encroaching Normans.

Carol wrote: "I absolutely agree and I think we must remember the Godwinson boys and their contemporaries were war lords also..."

In my recent experience, Anglo-Saxonophiles react furiously to this, but I must point out that Earl Harold obtained his canon-law wife Edith (or Ealdgyth) of Mercia by killing her first husband, Gruffydd ap Llywelyn of Gwynedd, ruler of Wales, thereby committing both murder and bigamy.

That his first and handfast wife Edeva the Fair (Edith Swannesha) continued to love him is a testament to her loyalty.

Paula wrote: "Its a great book isnt it. But no matter what slant he puts on it, you cannot get a way from the fact that the William and his Normans were very destructive in their rule..."

Change is a process of destruction and construction.

On the constructive side, my dear old friend Count Alan Rufus established a trade fair on his own land to promote the wool and salt trade in the town of Skirbeck in Lincolnshire.

The salt was brought (I presume down the River Trent) from Derby. Under Edward the Confessor, the lord of Derby (according to www.pase.ac.uk/‎) was none other than Walter d'Aincourt, whose wife Matilda was, I believe, one of Alan's sisters.

Skirbeck became Boston, the second-busiest port of England: in 1204, a little over a century later in King John's time, London's trade revenues were only slightly greater than Boston's.

Boston became so important that it was admitted to the Hanseatic League of merchant cities (capital Visby, Gotland, Baltic Sea).