Zoe’s Comments (group member since Jul 07, 2013)

Zoe’s comments from the Ask Carol McGrath group.

Zoe wrote: "Carol wrote: "... Were Alan and Alan Niger from the same mother? Do you know?"

(2) Yes. The English inheritance sequence was: Alan Rufus -> Alan Niger -> Stephen. Alan Rufus and Stephen had the s..."

The 1056/1060 charter explicitly calls Geoffrey, Alan, William, Robert and Richard children of Eozen and Agnes. Alan Niger and Stephen were not mentioned therein, so likely they were younger than those five.

How Brian fits into the family, and what his probable birth year was, I'm still endeavouring to figure out. He didn't witness the 1056/1060 charter, so either he was too young, or he was somehow indisposed, or maybe he really was illegitimate. Whatever the case, he earned his 227-plus manors.

It's possible that Ribald was also a son of Agnes, since the Domesday Book calls him "Ribald, brother of Alan".

Carol wrote: "So Hawise was Emma's sister and aunt to William of Normandy!"

Hawise and Emma were William's great-aunts.

Carol wrote: "... Were Alan and Alan Niger from the same mother? Do you know?"

(2) Yes. The English inheritance sequence was: Alan Rufus -> Alan Niger -> Stephen. Alan Rufus and Stephen had the same mother, Agnes of Cornouaille, so she was Alan Niger's mother also.

Carol wrote: "Oh not sure. Shall ask. Also was Richard 1 of Normandy Hawiz of Normandy's father ? It is a little hard to sort out. Were Alan and Alan Niger from the same mother? Do you know?"

(1) According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_...

Richard 1 of Normandy and Gunnora his wife were the biological parents of the following children. (I've emboldened those I think to be the historically most significant.)

Richard II "the Good", Duke of Normandy

Robert, Archbishop of Rouen, Count of Evreux

Mauger, Earl of Corbeil

Emma of Normandy, wife of two kings of England

Maud of Normandy, wife of Odo II of Blois, Count of Blois, Champagne and Chartres

Hawise of Normandy, wife of Geoffrey I, Duke of Brittany

Papia of Normandy

William, Count of Eu

Richard 1 also had at least 3 children by mistresses:


Geoffrey, Count of Eu

William, Count of Eu (ca. 972-26 January 1057/58), m. Lasceline de Turqueville (d. 26 January 1057/58).

Beatrice of Normandy, Abbess of Montvilliers d.1034 m. Ebles of Turenne (d.1030 (divorced)

Carol wrote: "Finally boys witnessed documents at age 14 when they had the right to do so. Before that age they might but with the adult consent. Elizabeth provided me with this info."

Was there a minimum age for boys to witness documents in company with their parents? 7 years of age (the age at which it was expected they could clearly distinguish right from wrong)?

I'm trying to find the latest possible birthdate for Alan and his brothers who witnessed that 1056/1060 charter in Anjou with Eozen and Agnes.

If I go with 14, then all of those boys (Geoffrey, Alan, William, Robert and Richard, whom the charter listed in that order) must have been born by 1042/1046. Allowing 2 years on average between surviving sons, that puts their birth years as 1034/1038, 1036/1040, 1038/1042, 1040/1044 and 1042/1046, respectively, at the latest.

It would help date the charter and therefore the boys' ages, if we knew how long Eozen was in prison from 1057 when Conan captured him, i.e. when he was released. That would also clarify when Eozen and William could have been in contact.

Carol wrote: "... Can I call Eozen Eudo?"

Carol, this is my understanding of how one should name Alan's father.

Official documents and letters to and from church officials use the Latin form Eudo or Eudes.

In intimate conversation with fellow Bretons, he is Eozen.

In German and Dutch and presumably Frankish, he is Odo.

In modern French, his name is Éon.

In English might one call him Ian?

I don't know the Gallo form of his name, which is a pity as that is how he would have been privately addressed by the Normans and the people of Anjou, Maine and Eastern Brittany.

Patricia Stephenson has an interesting article on the Bayeux tapestry and its connections with Wilton Abbey in http://patricia-stephenson.com/wp-con....

She speculates that Muriel the Poetess may have been the same Muriel who was a sister of Odo of Bayeux and Robert of Mortain. (On reflection, their sister's name strengthens the proposition that their family had Breton ties.)

Since Thomas was a Canon of Bayeux and his mother was named Muriel, was he related to Bishop Odo? Or was Muriel a popular name among the Bretons in those days?

Patricia also contends that Marie de France, author of so many famous "Breton Lays", was "the Abbess of Shaftesbury Abbey, appointed we may presume by the King, her half-brother Henry II".

Baudri claimed that the arrow that blinded Harold during the Battle at Hastings, and contributed to his subsequent death, was just retribution for his father Godwin's part in the blinding and death of Arthur, Edward the Confessor's brother. I had no idea that Ethelred and Emma had a son named Arthur: how Celtic of them!

Potential heirs to the English throne named Arthur had a terrible time of it: that Arthur of England, blinded and killed; the son of Duke Geoffrey of Brittany whom King John ordered be blinded, then when people refused, killed Arthur himself; Arthur, Henry VIII's elder brother, died young. It's as though history isn't ready for a second king named Arthur.

Muriel the Poetess, who was at Wilton Abbey and subsequently buried there next to the relics of the Venerable Bede, was more likely Breton than Irish or Scots Gaelic (the other possibilities).

"Queens Consort: England's Medieval Queens", by Lisa Hilton, cites a poem by Baudri de Bourgeuil dated prior to 1095 and addressed to Muriel the Poetess, in which Muriel is described as "a beautiful young noblewoman who eschewed marriage and wealth to devote herself to virginity in the convent".

I have the impression that Muriel wasn't a very common name in England, even then. Was she related to Muriel the mother of Thomas of Bayeux? Was she perhaps Thomas's sister or niece?

In a note that is relevant to Carol's advice to historical fiction authors to accurately reflect the mindset of the times, Lisa Hilton refers to the monk poet Serlo as writing to Muriel in praise of her choice [to be a nun], whereby she escaped the dilemma of a lady in 'society', who "could not be both elegant and virtuous since, in a world where marriages of convenience ruled, a woman who did not take a lover would be looked down on as ill-bred or provincial"!

In order to provide a translation, I've edited the second post that quotes from the French site on the Siege of Saint Suzanne.

A genealogy in http://www.avocadoridge.com/carney/ge..., confuses Ralph the Staller with Ralph the Timid, Earl of Hereford (a title which included Oxfordshire).

Ralph the Timid's father was Drogo of Mantes (996–1035) the Count of Valois, the Vexin and Amiens, and his mother was Goda (Godgifu) (1004 – c. 1047) a princess of England whose parents were King Ethelred and Emma of Normandy; thus Goda was a sister of Edward the Confessor.

According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_th..., in 1055 this Ralph was the first to flee in battle from Gruffydd ap Llywelyn and the exiled Ælfgar, former earl of East Anglia; this lack of courage then caused a rout.

Ralph the Timid's son Harold "was was one of the royal children brought up by King Edward's wife, Edith". He may have been named after Harold Godwinson, as Ralph and the Godwins were "on good terms".

Harold, Ralph the Timid's son, "survived the Conquest and later received part of his father's lands, as well as Ewyas Harold, which is named after him. His descendants are the Sudeleys of Toddington, Gloucestershire."

Carol wrote: "...Ralph Staller gets help..."

Ralph de Gael.

Ralph the Staller was Ralph de Gael's father and died in 1068. Ralph de Gael (with William the Conqueror's approval) then inherited the position of Earl of East Anglia.

Those of Alan's ancestors who died naturally, mostly lived to between 80 and 87 years of age. So any who died much younger than say 70 likely did so due to battle injuries, of poisoning, of disease, or in childbirth.

Alan's mother Agnes of Cornouaille died around the age of 40 in about 1056, a date and age that suggest she may have died from complications in giving birth to her youngest son, Stephen.

Salisbury is very close to the site of Wilton Abbey.

"1088 November 2: William de St-Calais is put on trial for treason in Salisbury. Alan takes an important part in the proceedings."

So we have at least two dates on which Alan was well-placed to have visited Gunnhild at Wilton: 1086 when he witnessed a judicial decision by William the Conqueror in Wiltshire, and 1088 when he was with William II at St Calais' trial in Salisbury.

Of course in Carol's scenario or in Richard Sharpe's, Gunhild would already have been with Alan for some years. If so, perhaps she accompanied Alan and took the opportunity to visit her friends, the nuns of Wilton?

Maybe Alan even suggested to the King that they hold the trial there, ostensibly because it was far from St Calais's supporters in Durham, but actually for Gunhild's benefit?

Zoe wrote: "Carol, to answer an earlier question of yours, the Bottrill document says that Alan Niger may have had an illegitimate son named "Hamo" by Gunnhilda.

It also says that Alan Rufus was born in 1038,..."

Based on the Angevin charter witnessed in 1056/1060 by Eozen, Agnes and their sons Geoffrey, Alan, William, Robert and Richard, the birth dates "1056" and "1058" cited on 5 Aug 2013 for Robert and Richard must, I would think, be late by a decade at least.

Does anyone know at what age medieval men/boys were legally able to witness charters?

Often I wonder whether "William did so-and-so" sometimes means "William authorised Odo to do it" or "Alan did it", or "William watched as X did it"?

Since Alan was entrusted with the siege of Sainte-Suzanne, he must have proved himself in earlier sieges, so perhaps it was Alan who reconquered almost all of Maine? In that case, Sainte-Suzanne was "the only castle that Alan Rufus failed to capture".

Perhaps this timeline for William vs Maine may help?

1063: Duke William I of Normandy invades Maine in force.

1064 January: William now controls Maine.

1069: The citizens of Le Mans, capital of Maine, rebel against the Normans.

1070: Maine expels the Normans. Hugh V proclaimed Count of Maine.

1073: William attacks Maine. He stays in France for the next two years.

1075: The Revolt of the Earls forces William to return to England.

Date unknown: William resumes attack on Maine.

1082: William has now retaken all of Maine’s castles except Viscount Hubert de Beaumont’s formidably located Sainte Suzanne, where Hubert leads the garrison in person.

1083: William sends Alan with William’s best household knights to build a fortified camp at Beugy, 800 metres north of Sainte Suzanne.

1083: Alan’s fame is drawing all the most experienced knights from across France to show their mettle in defence of Sainte Suzanne. Norman and Breton lords and knights on foray are captured and ransomed in increasing numbers. When they attempt to fight their captors, they are killed. Alan’s prowess prevents things from being worse, as no one can touch him in battle, but this only increases the attraction.

1084: Alan makes the strategic decision to resign his command at Beugy. He hands over to his Breton subordinate Anvrai (Hervey?). While this removes the prospect of hand-to-hand combat with Alan, Sainte Suzanne has become a Cause Celebre and the French knights keep coming.

1086: The death toll at Sainte Suzanne continues to mount. Anvrai is killed. Although French knights have also perished, William has lost many of his own best knights; Alan advises him to come to terms with Count Hubert of Maine; William and Hubert agree.

1086 late: With the conflict in Maine behind him and pleased with the early returns of the Domesday Survey, William plans to invade France.

Mantes is on the Seine, 30 miles WNW of the centre of Paris, so King William was within a short ride of the French royal palace when he received his fatal injury.

The article recounts a number of anecdotes pertaining to the siege; it describes the end of the siege as follows.

Comme les Normands qui gardaient le camp de Beugy ne pouvaient l’emporter sur Hubert de Beaumont ni par la valeur, ni par le bonheur, ayant changé de résolution, ils essayèrent de le faire entrer dans l’alliance du roi. Hubert consentit sagement aux négociations, et Guillaume le Conquérant s’y prêta, découragé par la mort de tant de braves chevaliers, entre autres par celle d’Hervé le Breton (ou plus probablement Anvrai le Breton ?), qui avait succédé à Alain le Roux dans le commandement du siège.

Guillaume reçut amicalement en Angleterre le défenseur de Sainte-Suzanne, lui rendit honorablement les domaines de ses pères, et dès lors se maintint en bonne intelligence avec lui. Ainsi prit fin le siège de Sainte-Suzanne.

Guillaume le Conquérant, blessé lors du pillage de Mantes, mourut à Rouen peu de temps après, le 9 septembre 1087. Hubert II mourut vers 1095 mais la famille de Beaumont, ensuite alliée aux Brienne, tint la vicomté jusqu’à la fin du XIVe siècle.

Using the same tools and my own discretion, one translation is:

"As the Normans who were guarding the camp at Beugy could not prevail against Hubert de Beaumont, either by valour or by fortune, they resolved instead to endeavour to bring him into alliance with the king. Hubert wisely agreed to negotiations, and William the Conqueror was ready to do likewise, being discouraged by the death of so many brave knights, including Hervé (or more likely Anvrai?) the Breton, who had succeeded Alan Rufus in the command of the siege.

William received [Hubert] the defender of Sainte-Suzanne amicably in England, honourably restored to him the domains of his fathers, and thus kept on good terms with him. Thus ended the siege of Sainte-Suzanne.

William the Conqueror, who was wounded during the looting of Mantes, died at Rouen shortly afterwards, on 9 September 1087. Hubert II died around 1095 but the family of Beaumont, subsequently Beaumont-Brienne, held the title of Viscount until the end of the fourteenth century."

Crudely interpreting the above, with the inadequate assistance of both Google Translate and the Babylon translation software, as my school French is much neglected:

"King William's army, led by Count Alan Rufus of Brittany, was noted for its wealth, its horses and its military apparatus, but the defenders were striving to match it in courage and number, because from Aquitaine, Burgundy and other provinces of France, the best knights flocked to Hubert to assist him by their efforts and bravery. The result was that the castle of Sainte-Suzanne was enriched at the expense of the besiegers, and increasingly it was strengthened in its ability to resist. It often happened that rich lords, Norman or English, fell into the hands of the besieged: through the price of their ransom, Viscount Hubert and Robert of Burgundy, whose niece he had married, as well as others of his party, enriched themselves honourably."

"From 1083 to 1086, Hubert resisted the Normans and, laden with the spoils of the enemy, braved their attacks. In this war, Robert of Vieux-Pont, Robert of Ussi and several other Norman knights of distinction were killed."

A French site dedicated to the Siege of Sainte-Suzanne is: http://www.ste-suzanne.fr/histoire/le.... Let me quote an extract.

Orderic Vital poursuit : “L’armée du roi, à la tête se trouvait Alain le Roux, comte des Bretons, se faisait remarquer par ses richesses, par ses chevaux et par son appareil militaire; mais les assiégés s’efforçaient de l’égaler en courage et en nombre, car de l’Aquitaine, de la Bourgogne et des autres provinces de France, les meilleurs chevaliers accouraient vers Hubert pour le seconder de leurs efforts et de leur bravoure. Il en résulta que le château de Sainte-Suzanne s’enrichit aux dépens des assiégeants, et que de plus en plus il se fortifia dans ses moyens de résistance. Il arrivait souvent que de riches seigneurs, normands ou anglais, tombaient dans les mains des assiégés : au prix de leur rançon, le vicomte et Robert de Bourgogne, dont il avait épousé la nièce, ainsi que les autres personnes de son parti, s’enrichissaient honorablement“.

De 1083 à 1086, Hubert résista aux normands et, chargé des dépouilles de l’ennemi, brava ses attaques. Dans cette guerre, Robert de Vieux-Pont, Robert d’Ussi et plusieurs autres chevaliers normands de distinction furent tués.