AmadorBibliophile’s answer to “I hope this doesn't sound too rude, but just how much lgbt stuff is in this book? I don't mind it …” > Likes and Comments
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Do you hear yourself? You were wondering if Gideon's sexual orientation would "get in the way of the story"?? Do you wonder if hetero characters' sexual orientation will get in the way of the story for you? Why did it seem necessary for you to ask if this book was, like, gay, but not too gay??
lmao darianne that you think books never make heterosexual romance into some kind of insane dramatic thing that overshadows the story...you know there's no prize for internalized homophobia bingo right?
SecBibliophile: How is asking how much LGBT content there is considered sexist? When goodreads lists "LGBT" as the genra of the book, it's a completely legitimate question.
If someone had mentioned on the cover that the protagonist was hetero, I would be curious as to what amount of the plot that took up as well. In this case it was maybe a selling point, but had anyone's sexuality, hetero or otherwise, been a major point, I would've been disinterested. I think, while it was a strange question for them to ask, it was perfectly reasonable.
Hmmm but it's almost like no one would ever specify or need to specify on the cover of a book that a protagonist was hetero because we live in a society where heterosexuality is the default and so everyone assumes until informed otherwise that books are about straight people.
If what OP really meant was whether there was romantic/sexual content (of any kind) in the book, or whether this was a book about coming to terms with one's sexuality, that's what they should have asked, although the assumption that advertised lesbian character = romantic/sexual content is clearly silly. The lesbian part is mentioned on the cover because it's a selling point in a world where most books, especially genre fiction, are about straight people. Come on. Harm was probably not intended but this is still a head-up-ass question.
I get where she is coming from in this day and age. I don't care if there are LGBT characters in a book/ movie or whatever. What i do not like however is when it is pushed so hard that it seems like the book/movie becomes more of a woke wake-up call the anything else.
Now i haven't read this book but with all the positive reviews it has gotten, i doubt it stands in the way of the story.
What is “pushed too hard,” Tom? I’m having trouble coming up with an answer that doesn’t indicate some level of discomfort with LGBTQ themes. The positive reviews are almost certainly at least partly *because* there’s a broad readership of people who are interested in genre fiction with LGBTQ themes and characters.
Once again-if the question is “does this book have a lot of romance content” as a genre question, that is the question that should be asked.
I i look here on goodreads at the synopsis of this book there isn't any mention of anything LGBT except maybe dirty magazines but you got those with naked men aswell . If i look at the back cover of the book there are 2 parts, 1 in orange again no mention of the protagonist being lesbian and 1 in white text which does mention it.
So in this case it would be very disappointing for me if i would be reading how hard/wonderful it is to be gay every other page or reading a sex scene every other page. In the case of the sex scene the genders don't even matter cause from the synopsis i wouldn't be expecting a sex centered novel.
If the story is necromancers/politics/swordplay first with a little lgbt culture/ action sprinkled in there then that's fine
Pretty sure you missed the *entire* point of my post, but ok.
Not sure why you are resurrecting a question from two years ago to bless us with your take on whether or not the original question was a smidge homophobic but your use of the phrase “push the narrative too far” about LGBT content kind of gives the jig up as to where *you* are coming from.
Not sure if that’s directed at me but if it is, saying I sound racist because i’m calling out homophobia is quite a reach. hope you didn’t strain any muscles. 😂
I have push notifications enabled for the goodreads app because it’s the 21st century, Brett, so yeah, I respond when I get a notification…which I haven’t for months before a couple days ago. I find it interesting that people are more bothered by someone calling out homophobia than actual homophobia, but I guess that’s the world we live in. This entire thread is basically various people repeatedly going “is there too much gay stuff??? because ewwwww” and then congratulating each other on how not homophobic they are. lol.
Calm down my guy, he never said anything homophobic
Oh thank GOD a random ass person is here to define what is and isn’t homophobia for me, so glad we cleared that up, especially after some users have deleted their homophobic comments from this thread.
You're still getting replies YEARS later because your comments, and the original reply to Justin, are incredibly presumptuous and unwarranted.
LGBT works are often promoted simply because the author or characters are LGBT, rather than having good content. I would want to know if the characters in a book are good characters that happen to be LGBT, or LGBT characters made solely (and obviously) for the purpose of being LGBT.
The former allows readers to understand and create connections to characters that, perhaps, live their lives differently. The latter makes for uninteresting characters, a lousy read, and is insulting to the reader. "Woke" content made in this way is painful to consume and impacts the LGBT community negatively. Nobody likes an agenda or opinion shoved down their throat, and trying to do so can create a dislike of the LGBT crowd that, in reality, is just normal people trying to live their lives like everybody else.
I don't know if these are the things Justin wanted clarification on exactly, but neither do you. He didn't ask if you thought he was being homophobic (he wasn't), and he didn't say he was worried that the book would be TOO GAY as you incorrectly infer. He was looking to give something out of his comfort zone an honest chance.
You made a really good attempt at gatekeeping someone from a book that very well could be their introduction to LGBTQIA+ work. He has been nothing but kind to the idiots that throw -ist words at people because they see demons where there are none. Be better than that.
It remains pretty fucked up that people's driving response to this exchange is to tone police the people calling out what is pretty clearly some level of implicit (and from some users, explicit!) homophobia. I was not attempting to gatekeep Justin from the book at all. If anything, he was gatekeeping himself from the book by needing to check if an LGBTQ main character's sexual orientation would "get in the way" of the story. But you clearly share OP's attitude that there's something inherently worthy of additional scrutiny about identifying a character as non-hetero in the blurb, so I get why you're defensive. (Also, pretty homophobic to lecture me on how some books only include LGBTQ characters for the woke points. YIKES.)
And once again, there were some more aggressively and openly homophobic comments in this thread at some point that users have since deleted.
All y'all who keep reviving this thread are doing is continually showing your own asses.
I received my copy of the book from TOR's newsletter, in which they describe the book (using the authors own words) as: "Lesbian necromancers explore a haunted gothic palace in space!"
That was the ONLY information given about the book. It is clearly being pushed as an LGBT book, there are at least 3 tags on this very website about it being an LGBT/queer/lesbian book, and yet many of the comments in this thread say that there is almost nothing LGBT related in the actual book itself.
So why in the world are you surprised that people don't know what to expect? Exploring a character's sexual orientation or gender could easily have been a major theme in this book, which is fine if that's what you're looking for... but apparently it isn't about that at all. Is there really anything wrong with getting clarification about that?
Also, big companies shoehorning LGBT/woke stuff into media is a huge thing these days, especially movies/tv. These companies don't care about you, they just want your money, and they think adding a token race/gender/orientation at the expense of story and logic and lore is the way to do that. I think it's far better to create GOOD ORIGINAL characters that happen to be LGBT/race/sex rather than try to shove a bad character down the audiences throat. Time and time again, we have seen that this doesn't work. In fact, I have read some books with LGBT characters that were excellent and I love those characters as much as any other.
You can keep calling people homophobic if it makes you feel better, but it won't make it true. I'll certainly be giving this book a try (Assuming I can get past this raging homophobia I supposedly have!)
Please do give the book a try as it is excellent! However, "Lesbian necromancers explore a haunted gothic palace in space!" are NOT the author's own words. Those are from a pull quote by a different author, Charles Stross. It is a standard practice to use colorful pull quotes in book marketing. The fact that the necromancers being described as "lesbian" leads invariably to an investigation about *exactly how gay* the books are is the exact problem. If OP had asked "is this book about someone coming out or exploring their sexuality?" or "is this a romance book?" that would be a different situation, but they asked "how much LGBT stuff" was in the book and then posited it might "get in the way of the story," which pretty clearly indicates some level of distaste for whatever "LGBT stuff" means. So, yeah, homophobic.
In terms of your complaints about diverse characters being "shoehorned" into media properties, holy dog whistles, Batman. I mean, you apparently felt the need to make a FAKE ACCOUNT to comment on this thread which sort of reveals that you are too sheepish to attach what you are saying to any kind of publicly traceable persona here. Once again, you are only showing your own ass.
I was wondering when you'd bring up the username... it is a pretty easy thing to attack. I originally only made this account because it was required to view comments, and for no other reason. (Though, I wouldn't put it past some crazies to dox people because of their opinions. Always do the bare minimum to keep yourself safe.)
Regardless, I have nothing more to say. I hope you'll come back to this thread in another two years or so and realize just how much you've projected onto others. You aren't being attacked. No LGBT people are being attacked. You are creating hate where there is none and it only does the community a disservice.
I’m not “attacking your user name,” i’m pointing out that It’s incredibly bizarre that you made an account on *Goodreads* just to argue with people/to creep on comments.
You continue to not address the substance of anything I am saying and instead continue to condescend to me about “spreading hate.” It’s been over 2 years since the original post and I stand by what I said then. Pointing out homophobia does not “create hate.” It does not do “the community” a disservice to call out the way media with LGBTQ characters is othered. Staying silent is what does the disservice. But I get it—you apparently only accept people who are different from you if they don’t make too much noise and perform the role you expect. Or else we’re “harming the community” by not performing adequate decorum, no?
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Do you hear yourself? You were wondering if Gideon's sexual orientation would "get in the way of the story"?? Do you wonder if hetero characters' sexual orientation will get in the way of the story for you? Why did it seem necessary for you to ask if this book was, like, gay, but not too gay??
Wow, Ellenm, it's insane how incredibly sensitive to questions you are. Do you go around being this outraged in your daily life? Because that sounds incredibly exhausting. Where do you get the energy to rage so much?
As a les, I do in fact also wonder if non-het orientations get in the way of story. Because it's not just enough for some authors to make their characters gay, or bi, or any of the other gorgeous non-het shades that exist; many seem to shoe-horn stupid angsty shit in their books and I'm frankly pretty tired of it. I look forward to reading stories that treat non-het/non-cis as no big deal, as normal, as just a shrug -- exactly like in stories with het characters. Why the heck do you think nobody ever asks if het characters' sexual orientation gets in the way of story? Because it just doesn't. But there are frankly so many disappointing les and gay books that go too far the other way and make it some kind of insane dramatic thing that overshadows the story. Which is pretty annoying.
As a les, I do in fact also wonder if non-het orientations get in the way of story. Because it's not just enough for some authors to make their characters gay, or bi, or any of the other gorgeous non-het shades that exist; many seem to shoe-horn stupid angsty shit in their books and I'm frankly pretty tired of it. I look forward to reading stories that treat non-het/non-cis as no big deal, as normal, as just a shrug -- exactly like in stories with het characters. Why the heck do you think nobody ever asks if het characters' sexual orientation gets in the way of story? Because it just doesn't. But there are frankly so many disappointing les and gay books that go too far the other way and make it some kind of insane dramatic thing that overshadows the story. Which is pretty annoying.
And just to clarify: I am not the person who submitted the original question, just someone gobsmacked by the way you and SacBibliophile are getting your knickers all in a twist about it.
lmao darianne that you think books never make heterosexual romance into some kind of insane dramatic thing that overshadows the story...you know there's no prize for internalized homophobia bingo right?
Sure they exist, Ellenm, but not in the same magnitude and angst bullshit level as in LGBTQ+ fiction. And I'm talking about fantasy novels and other non-romance genres, which Gideon is part of. I'm not talking about trashy romances that are all about that drama (sometimes I'm in the mood for trashy romances but when I pick up a fantasy I dislike angsty bullcrap). But in any case, go on accusing everybody around you of homophobia, darling, if that's what lets you relax enough to sleep. Because the world always is and always will be against you/me/us, apparently. And because innocent questions (like this particular one you responded to) apparently don't exist. So keep on being triggered and offended and making other people not want to associate with you. You ever see that Key & Peele episode about the gay dude that constantly screams discrimination? The message there is the same here: it's not because you're gay that people dislike you; it's because you can act like a total buttwipe. Something to think about. ;) In any case, I won't be coming back to read replies to this so you can, of course, blast me all you want or whatever. I wash my hands of this conversation and won't see your rants, so ... have a lovely week! :D
SecBibliophile: How is asking how much LGBT content there is considered sexist? When goodreads lists "LGBT" as the genra of the book, it's a completely legitimate question.
If someone had mentioned on the cover that the protagonist was hetero, I would be curious as to what amount of the plot that took up as well. In this case it was maybe a selling point, but had anyone's sexuality, hetero or otherwise, been a major point, I would've been disinterested. I think, while it was a strange question for them to ask, it was perfectly reasonable.
Hmmm but it's almost like no one would ever specify or need to specify on the cover of a book that a protagonist was hetero because we live in a society where heterosexuality is the default and so everyone assumes until informed otherwise that books are about straight people. If what OP really meant was whether there was romantic/sexual content (of any kind) in the book, or whether this was a book about coming to terms with one's sexuality, that's what they should have asked, although the assumption that advertised lesbian character = romantic/sexual content is clearly silly. The lesbian part is mentioned on the cover because it's a selling point in a world where most books, especially genre fiction, are about straight people. Come on. Harm was probably not intended but this is still a head-up-ass question.
I get where she is coming from in this day and age. I don't care if there are LGBT characters in a book/ movie or whatever. What i do not like however is when it is pushed so hard that it seems like the book/movie becomes more of a woke wake-up call the anything else.Now i haven't read this book but with all the positive reviews it has gotten, i doubt it stands in the way of the story.
What is “pushed too hard,” Tom? I’m having trouble coming up with an answer that doesn’t indicate some level of discomfort with LGBTQ themes. The positive reviews are almost certainly at least partly *because* there’s a broad readership of people who are interested in genre fiction with LGBTQ themes and characters. Once again-if the question is “does this book have a lot of romance content” as a genre question, that is the question that should be asked.
I i look here on goodreads at the synopsis of this book there isn't any mention of anything LGBT except maybe dirty magazines but you got those with naked men aswell . If i look at the back cover of the book there are 2 parts, 1 in orange again no mention of the protagonist being lesbian and 1 in white text which does mention it.So in this case it would be very disappointing for me if i would be reading how hard/wonderful it is to be gay every other page or reading a sex scene every other page. In the case of the sex scene the genders don't even matter cause from the synopsis i wouldn't be expecting a sex centered novel.
If the story is necromancers/politics/swordplay first with a little lgbt culture/ action sprinkled in there then that's fine
Pretty sure you missed the *entire* point of my post, but ok.
Not sure why you are resurrecting a question from two years ago to bless us with your take on whether or not the original question was a smidge homophobic but your use of the phrase “push the narrative too far” about LGBT content kind of gives the jig up as to where *you* are coming from.
Not sure if that’s directed at me but if it is, saying I sound racist because i’m calling out homophobia is quite a reach. hope you didn’t strain any muscles. 😂
I have push notifications enabled for the goodreads app because it’s the 21st century, Brett, so yeah, I respond when I get a notification…which I haven’t for months before a couple days ago. I find it interesting that people are more bothered by someone calling out homophobia than actual homophobia, but I guess that’s the world we live in. This entire thread is basically various people repeatedly going “is there too much gay stuff??? because ewwwww” and then congratulating each other on how not homophobic they are. lol.
Calm down my guy, he never said anything homophobic
Oh thank GOD a random ass person is here to define what is and isn’t homophobia for me, so glad we cleared that up, especially after some users have deleted their homophobic comments from this thread.
You're still getting replies YEARS later because your comments, and the original reply to Justin, are incredibly presumptuous and unwarranted.LGBT works are often promoted simply because the author or characters are LGBT, rather than having good content. I would want to know if the characters in a book are good characters that happen to be LGBT, or LGBT characters made solely (and obviously) for the purpose of being LGBT.
The former allows readers to understand and create connections to characters that, perhaps, live their lives differently. The latter makes for uninteresting characters, a lousy read, and is insulting to the reader. "Woke" content made in this way is painful to consume and impacts the LGBT community negatively. Nobody likes an agenda or opinion shoved down their throat, and trying to do so can create a dislike of the LGBT crowd that, in reality, is just normal people trying to live their lives like everybody else.
I don't know if these are the things Justin wanted clarification on exactly, but neither do you. He didn't ask if you thought he was being homophobic (he wasn't), and he didn't say he was worried that the book would be TOO GAY as you incorrectly infer. He was looking to give something out of his comfort zone an honest chance.
You made a really good attempt at gatekeeping someone from a book that very well could be their introduction to LGBTQIA+ work. He has been nothing but kind to the idiots that throw -ist words at people because they see demons where there are none. Be better than that.
It remains pretty fucked up that people's driving response to this exchange is to tone police the people calling out what is pretty clearly some level of implicit (and from some users, explicit!) homophobia. I was not attempting to gatekeep Justin from the book at all. If anything, he was gatekeeping himself from the book by needing to check if an LGBTQ main character's sexual orientation would "get in the way" of the story. But you clearly share OP's attitude that there's something inherently worthy of additional scrutiny about identifying a character as non-hetero in the blurb, so I get why you're defensive. (Also, pretty homophobic to lecture me on how some books only include LGBTQ characters for the woke points. YIKES.)And once again, there were some more aggressively and openly homophobic comments in this thread at some point that users have since deleted.
All y'all who keep reviving this thread are doing is continually showing your own asses.
I received my copy of the book from TOR's newsletter, in which they describe the book (using the authors own words) as: "Lesbian necromancers explore a haunted gothic palace in space!" That was the ONLY information given about the book. It is clearly being pushed as an LGBT book, there are at least 3 tags on this very website about it being an LGBT/queer/lesbian book, and yet many of the comments in this thread say that there is almost nothing LGBT related in the actual book itself.
So why in the world are you surprised that people don't know what to expect? Exploring a character's sexual orientation or gender could easily have been a major theme in this book, which is fine if that's what you're looking for... but apparently it isn't about that at all. Is there really anything wrong with getting clarification about that?
Also, big companies shoehorning LGBT/woke stuff into media is a huge thing these days, especially movies/tv. These companies don't care about you, they just want your money, and they think adding a token race/gender/orientation at the expense of story and logic and lore is the way to do that. I think it's far better to create GOOD ORIGINAL characters that happen to be LGBT/race/sex rather than try to shove a bad character down the audiences throat. Time and time again, we have seen that this doesn't work. In fact, I have read some books with LGBT characters that were excellent and I love those characters as much as any other.
You can keep calling people homophobic if it makes you feel better, but it won't make it true. I'll certainly be giving this book a try (Assuming I can get past this raging homophobia I supposedly have!)
Please do give the book a try as it is excellent! However, "Lesbian necromancers explore a haunted gothic palace in space!" are NOT the author's own words. Those are from a pull quote by a different author, Charles Stross. It is a standard practice to use colorful pull quotes in book marketing. The fact that the necromancers being described as "lesbian" leads invariably to an investigation about *exactly how gay* the books are is the exact problem. If OP had asked "is this book about someone coming out or exploring their sexuality?" or "is this a romance book?" that would be a different situation, but they asked "how much LGBT stuff" was in the book and then posited it might "get in the way of the story," which pretty clearly indicates some level of distaste for whatever "LGBT stuff" means. So, yeah, homophobic. In terms of your complaints about diverse characters being "shoehorned" into media properties, holy dog whistles, Batman. I mean, you apparently felt the need to make a FAKE ACCOUNT to comment on this thread which sort of reveals that you are too sheepish to attach what you are saying to any kind of publicly traceable persona here. Once again, you are only showing your own ass.
I was wondering when you'd bring up the username... it is a pretty easy thing to attack. I originally only made this account because it was required to view comments, and for no other reason. (Though, I wouldn't put it past some crazies to dox people because of their opinions. Always do the bare minimum to keep yourself safe.)Regardless, I have nothing more to say. I hope you'll come back to this thread in another two years or so and realize just how much you've projected onto others. You aren't being attacked. No LGBT people are being attacked. You are creating hate where there is none and it only does the community a disservice.
I’m not “attacking your user name,” i’m pointing out that It’s incredibly bizarre that you made an account on *Goodreads* just to argue with people/to creep on comments.You continue to not address the substance of anything I am saying and instead continue to condescend to me about “spreading hate.” It’s been over 2 years since the original post and I stand by what I said then. Pointing out homophobia does not “create hate.” It does not do “the community” a disservice to call out the way media with LGBTQ characters is othered. Staying silent is what does the disservice. But I get it—you apparently only accept people who are different from you if they don’t make too much noise and perform the role you expect. Or else we’re “harming the community” by not performing adequate decorum, no?
You'll be happy to know that I'm essentially halfway through the book and my only complaint would be the very confusing and hard to remember names. I wasn't trying to be sexist in my question, I assure you that was not my intention.
Heck, if Ms. Muir had said the book was full of steamy lesbian sex I might've still given it a try simply because the plot sounds so interesting. I was just trying to figure out if the fact Gideon's a lesbian would get in the way of the story or if it would just be a part of it, if that makes any sense. I'm happy to say that my fears were completely unfounded.