Joseph’s answer to “So I am just getting to the point in this where Marianne has started to eat less and less, fixating…” > Likes and Comments
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A thoughtful response, with most of which I agree. Your comment that he doesn't realize how fucked up she is rings true, and explains much of the asymetry between them.
The way Rooney unfolds the story, the reader learns gradually the depth of Marianne's damage, the horror of her upper class family. the psychosis of her brother. It's one of the things that gives Normal People its compelling power.
Our first real awareness of her damage is when she rebounds from Connell to the worthless Jamie and makes a pact with him to abuse her. Something about this goes well beyond Fifty Shades hijinks. Marianne feels she is truly worthless, and she's going to get herself a rotten boyfriend who will treat her badly so she can prove it.
Connell, as you say, never fully understands this, so he doesn't know how much his sometimes callous, or at least klunky behavior can hurt her.
That said, I"ve rarely been as angry with a literary character as I was with Connell when he asked Rachel to Debs. It's an enormous tribute to Rooney that she makes inidents like this feel so real. They have a shockingly visceral effect on the reader. I at first didn't understand what Connell did, but then it made sense: the strongest motivator in adolescence is peer approval, not love, affection, intimacy, surely not even sex itself. The key moment is when Connell's friend taunts him to take Marianne to Debs. Connell is like, "I'll show him. I'll ask the hottest girl around." That is a pure adolescent response.
LIke you, I would have preferred them to go their seperate ways after college. Their lives do not really intersect with each other. I see them as people who retain a kind of intelletual intimacy throughout their lives, a deep friendship that doesn't have to be acknowledged to be lasting and real. It surprised me when Rooney had them living together like, well, a couple of "normal" people. I would still hold that Connell is insensive when he applies for the MFA program without telling Marianne. I understand that his motives are complex, but he's making the same mistake he's made througout their relationship. As you say, he doesn't get the depth of her damage.
I also think that, as others have said, Connell seems to come out the winner. That may be understandale, but it still leaves the reader with a sour taste.
I felt the same way initially...but having listened to some of the author's interviews I've warmed up to it somewhat though not completely. Rooney has said she's trying write a Marxist novel, specifically how these big socioeconomic theories filter down to the interpersonal level. I would say the ending is satisfactory for both characters in that it's not about who is 'winning' in the traditional sense. But rather that they have both gotten what they needed. Marianne now knows she is worthy of love, and Connell is on his way to being a writer. I agree though that the ending is undermined because Connell doesn't tell Marianne. And that throughout the novel, it seem like the depths of Marianne's feelings for Connell are not matched. Try as I might to find Marianne's last words as a show of strength and generosity, I'm alas personally too petty.
Sally I agree with your analysis Joseph. I did find the ending somewhat of a heartrending betrayal too. Was it meant to resonate or just be realistic, as in 'people never change'? Perhaps Sally Rooney was war of the Dickensian happy ending, whatever that means.
I wholeheartedly agree. Desperately unsatisfying ending. Was Rooney afraid to take the book to its natural conclusion? I felt she ultimately turned away from it. Connell's depression, incidentally, made no sense to me and that was where the book lost its way, in my experience.
I was desperate for a happy ending after investing so much in these two characters.
I do want a sequel. I demand it.
I want Sally to follow through and ‘finish’ this novel. I matter how it ends.
Joseph, I wish I knew what you meant when you wrote "reationalize." Rationalize? Moving on, nevertheless, she does give him her brand of blessing, in saying, "Go." Has she done that so that she can continue to self-destruct to the fullest extent, a level to which even he will not go? Connell is a a piece of, but it is somewhat odd how the author develops a character who is a major user, but his cruelty is somewhat different than the other men she chooses and than her family. The author seems to infer this puts Connell on a higher level than the others in Marianne's life. Marianne may be submissive and a masochist, but she is extraordinarily manipulative, a defining trait she and Connell share. Love it or hate it, this is a thought provoking novel written by a woman not yet thirty.
Interesting. I see where you're coming from in it seeming as though the book ends with Connell seemingly having a bright future and Marianne being stuck in the same place. Overall I actually enjoyed the ending. To me it felt real, in that sometimes relationships just grow apart without an actual "event" causing that. I like the fact that she explored the way that their relationship changed as they went through different experiences in life, and I think it felt very real that Marianne was cognizant of the fact that their lives would be very different after he went to New York and that their relationship wouldn't be the same. I don't think that Connell & Marianne had an ideal relationship by any means, but I think that their dynamic felt more real to me than had it been more romanticized or than if the author had tied up the ending in a nice, neat way
What a sad interpretation. I never saw Connell as playing games, it is just a book about crap self esteem and miscommunication.
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A thoughtful response, with most of which I agree. Your comment that he doesn't realize how fucked up she is rings true, and explains much of the asymetry between them.The way Rooney unfolds the story, the reader learns gradually the depth of Marianne's damage, the horror of her upper class family. the psychosis of her brother. It's one of the things that gives Normal People its compelling power.
Our first real awareness of her damage is when she rebounds from Connell to the worthless Jamie and makes a pact with him to abuse her. Something about this goes well beyond Fifty Shades hijinks. Marianne feels she is truly worthless, and she's going to get herself a rotten boyfriend who will treat her badly so she can prove it.
Connell, as you say, never fully understands this, so he doesn't know how much his sometimes callous, or at least klunky behavior can hurt her.
That said, I"ve rarely been as angry with a literary character as I was with Connell when he asked Rachel to Debs. It's an enormous tribute to Rooney that she makes inidents like this feel so real. They have a shockingly visceral effect on the reader. I at first didn't understand what Connell did, but then it made sense: the strongest motivator in adolescence is peer approval, not love, affection, intimacy, surely not even sex itself. The key moment is when Connell's friend taunts him to take Marianne to Debs. Connell is like, "I'll show him. I'll ask the hottest girl around." That is a pure adolescent response.
LIke you, I would have preferred them to go their seperate ways after college. Their lives do not really intersect with each other. I see them as people who retain a kind of intelletual intimacy throughout their lives, a deep friendship that doesn't have to be acknowledged to be lasting and real. It surprised me when Rooney had them living together like, well, a couple of "normal" people. I would still hold that Connell is insensive when he applies for the MFA program without telling Marianne. I understand that his motives are complex, but he's making the same mistake he's made througout their relationship. As you say, he doesn't get the depth of her damage.
I also think that, as others have said, Connell seems to come out the winner. That may be understandale, but it still leaves the reader with a sour taste.
I felt the same way initially...but having listened to some of the author's interviews I've warmed up to it somewhat though not completely. Rooney has said she's trying write a Marxist novel, specifically how these big socioeconomic theories filter down to the interpersonal level. I would say the ending is satisfactory for both characters in that it's not about who is 'winning' in the traditional sense. But rather that they have both gotten what they needed. Marianne now knows she is worthy of love, and Connell is on his way to being a writer. I agree though that the ending is undermined because Connell doesn't tell Marianne. And that throughout the novel, it seem like the depths of Marianne's feelings for Connell are not matched. Try as I might to find Marianne's last words as a show of strength and generosity, I'm alas personally too petty.
Sally I agree with your analysis Joseph. I did find the ending somewhat of a heartrending betrayal too. Was it meant to resonate or just be realistic, as in 'people never change'? Perhaps Sally Rooney was war of the Dickensian happy ending, whatever that means.
I wholeheartedly agree. Desperately unsatisfying ending. Was Rooney afraid to take the book to its natural conclusion? I felt she ultimately turned away from it. Connell's depression, incidentally, made no sense to me and that was where the book lost its way, in my experience.
I was desperate for a happy ending after investing so much in these two characters.I do want a sequel. I demand it.
I want Sally to follow through and ‘finish’ this novel. I matter how it ends.
Joseph, I wish I knew what you meant when you wrote "reationalize." Rationalize? Moving on, nevertheless, she does give him her brand of blessing, in saying, "Go." Has she done that so that she can continue to self-destruct to the fullest extent, a level to which even he will not go? Connell is a a piece of, but it is somewhat odd how the author develops a character who is a major user, but his cruelty is somewhat different than the other men she chooses and than her family. The author seems to infer this puts Connell on a higher level than the others in Marianne's life. Marianne may be submissive and a masochist, but she is extraordinarily manipulative, a defining trait she and Connell share. Love it or hate it, this is a thought provoking novel written by a woman not yet thirty.
Interesting. I see where you're coming from in it seeming as though the book ends with Connell seemingly having a bright future and Marianne being stuck in the same place. Overall I actually enjoyed the ending. To me it felt real, in that sometimes relationships just grow apart without an actual "event" causing that. I like the fact that she explored the way that their relationship changed as they went through different experiences in life, and I think it felt very real that Marianne was cognizant of the fact that their lives would be very different after he went to New York and that their relationship wouldn't be the same. I don't think that Connell & Marianne had an ideal relationship by any means, but I think that their dynamic felt more real to me than had it been more romanticized or than if the author had tied up the ending in a nice, neat way
What a sad interpretation. I never saw Connell as playing games, it is just a book about crap self esteem and miscommunication.
I think he honestly doesn't realize how deeply fucked up she really is. Her behaviour around him is not that different on how she acts around her bother (who is a despicable excuse of a human being). I think she has learned from a young age to stay quiet so she wouldn't upset anyone around her (which is in case of her brother not working because he uses Marianne as an outlet for his feeling of inferiority). They both definately have a communication problem becaus both hold things back as to not repel the other. She does get better towards the end which is shown in Marianne calling Conner to come and help her when she's hurt but she is far from resolving her issues. She needs a lot of therapy. I see their relationship as not at all healthy they are both depend on each other in different ways.
That said I didn't like the ending either. I would have much more preffered it if they would go their seperate ways, both finding fullfillment and happiness apart from each other because as I said before, I find their relationship toxic.