John’s answer to “When can we expect a release date?” > Likes and Comments
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i agree wholeheartedly with what NG is saying but that's not whats happening here. Patrick has created and blown off the deadline for this book repeatedly for a couple years. He keeps hinting that it will be out and then when it comes time for him to start publishing like he said unashamedly telling people to calm down and wait while hinting that it might be done at a new date which he also blows off when it comes around. If you as an author feel that your novel needs more work then figure out the time and try and get it done or give up on it for the time being. That is something i will wholeheartedly except, after all he's not my bitch, but if you keep missing your deadline every year and still keep hinting that it will be out by next year then i think i have some right to be getting frustrated and start being vocal about it.
Daniel, I'm quite sure writing a book series has very little in common with giving birth to a child. Okay, the child has sort of an expectable time span. And now days, when babies are "overdue" doctors will intervene. But and you can trust me on this, the mother does not control the labor. When the baby kicks it off, she is along for the ride. I LOVE the first two volumes, even though there have been times when my mind wandered while reading. Yet never did I Anne Ryand this book. Sorry, pretty sure her whole name is misspelled. But when she climbed on the soap box, I slid and dipped into pages at a time, until the STORY resumed! So far my wandering in Rothfuss has never required going back. Their purpose became clear, within a reasonable time!
Gotta love Neil Gainman. I also disagree with the statement that it is "fair for consumers to expect the product". The product, as stated, is the book you bought, not future books.
You do have every right to be annoyed that you do not have the continuation of the story at hand. You have no right, absolutely none, to be annoyed with the author. It is completely within their right to stop writing the damn story if they so choose.
I do want the third book to come out so I can read it though :D
That definitely puts things into perspective.
Gotta love im, no splitting hair about that statement. We forget that life happens to others not just us. Thanks for the perspective.
It's funny to see people keep defending authors the longer and longer it takes. Gaiman's defense is incredibly pretentious and weak. He's right that authors owe readers nothing. It's just common sense that an author hurts themselves the longer they take. You're losing customers. The fact that authors refuse to think this way is why books are becoming irrelevant to most.
Neil Gaimen was talking in reference to George R R Martin. Big difference between the two. Mr Martin has produced tons in comparison to PR. He's earned the right. PR has not.
Gaiman definitely makes some great points. I am always waiting for the next book, and it isn't just this series either. We are the readers, the audience, not the author. You can complain about not getting your next piece of chocolate, or you can move on and wait patiently. We can not control other people. That's just the way life is, and if you can't deal with that, then it sucks to be someone who feels the need to have that much control in your life because that is not the way life works.
You are absolutely right. By the same token he cannot control us. We can abstain, just as you walk away from a bully when he is teasing you.
I love how honest that article is. Well said i say!
I'd sympathize with it more if Pat was more forthcoming in talking about book 3, instead of saying things like "I'm going to block anyone who asks about book 3, period." [this was a couple of years ago on Twitter.]
Sorry, but no. When you sign a contract stating you'll have your product out by a certain date, you're obligated to fulfill that contract.
Anyone else would be fired.
NG talks about "a book a year" writing and saying thats madness. I agree. But a book in 5 years sounds just about right. You have time to live,love,work,travel and still get stuff done. 50k word novella is an OK side project, something to take his mind off stuff. Brandon Sanderson once said that he NEEDED to work on more than one book at any given time,or he'd go insane. And I really understand and support that. But PR just doesnt write anything these days. He surrounded himself with fanboys and fangirls,blocking everybody on Twitter that dissagrees with him. Or asks about book 3.
I honestly want to respect him,but why should I if he doesnt respect me? I want honesty and he's giving me sh*t in the face. If he has a writers block,thats fine. If he's working on something else,fine. If there's sh*t in his life,like there is, that's also fine. But at least respect people that gave money for your book by mentioning once in a while in his blogs.
Alas,he just doesnt care.
I feel like people fail to recognize how readers might lose their trust in authors and may become less inclined to buy books from unfinished series later on, hurting other unestablished authors in the process.
As a side note: when books take this long, parts of your audience simply die before they get the chance to read the entire series. I refuse to die before reading doors of stone! :)
No one wants a rushed product... but no one wants it extremely late, either. It's possible to overplay your hand when building up anticipation, and Rothfuss has just about reached that point.
I avoided being talked into the wheel of time because I just didn't feel like a long series at the time. Then I watched everyone complain. And then watched them lose their collective mind when the author kicked it without finishing. I felt like I dodged a bullet.
The same crowd jumped in for George R. R. Martin. I stayed out of it. Cause he was an old dude with a beard I didn't trust to finish it.
Rothfus was my last stop on the fantasy series train. If it doesn't have a finished arc, I don't buy it. I'll be your customer when you are done.
The fact that seemingly EVERYTHING takes precedence over finishing the damn story is problematic. HE promised a trilogy, and It became clear by the end of book 2 that he had no clue how to get to the start of book 1 in one more go.
At this point, if it has his name attached, my money stays in my pocket to be spent elsewhere. His other books, games, licenses, movies, tv series, charities. Don't care.
He owes me nothing, but I also don't owe him anything either.
You've hit the nail on the head there Matt.
The issue with a series is that if you start it, you should probably know how you're gonna finish it, instead of continuously kicking the ball down the road by either A. not writing anything and making people wait years or B. continuing to add on more installments until you finally have that epiphany you've been waiting for (and that you would've preferably had *before* there was a massive following for your first couple of books).
You don't even need to restrict yourself to fantasy books, or even books to see how important this can be. Look at TV, for example -- it's pretty obvious the showrunners of Lost created Lost without any notion whatsoever of how they were going to tie it all together in the end. Which makes for compelling TV in the middle (because *nobody* knows how it's going to end, not even the showrunners, so it's all very exciting), but then ends with a very dissatisfying for many vans, because it feels "meh" and shoehorned in.
You see a similar pattern in a lot of TV, actually, though a lot of that can probably be attributed to TV seemingly being much more profit-driven than writing novels, so the producers just want you to keep adding on more seasons even if you have no idea how to keep developing the plot (looking at you, Dexter).
So to get back to books: I generally agree with the sentiment that authors owe readers (almost) nothing, as they've already delivered on what you paid for. That being said, if you do this as an author, my opinion of you as an author goes down by a fair bit. If you craft good prose, great, my opinion of you on that count remains unchanged. But being an author and creating a novel or series is about more than just good world-building, or thoughtful character development, or elegant prose. It's also about the story, the arc. If you are writing a series, and can't help but end every book with a cliff-hanger, or otherwise provide readers with some amount of closure at the end of it all, you're a poorer writer for it. That's it.
If you want to write a series, but have no clue how you're going to finish it when you start writing, then I have a suggestion. At the very least, release your first book without saying it's part of a series. Then when the second one comes out, call it a sequel (which it is). From there, if you want to write many more books, you can call it a "series". If, after writing two books, you think you have a good plan for one more book to wrap it up, *then* you can start calling it a trilogy. But it's not really a trilogy until there are actually three books. It's especially not a trilogy if you end up with four complete books (looking at you, Chris Paolini). There is no legitimate reason to call something a trilogy if you don't actually have a solid plan for three books.
Why does everyone think saying 'he is not your bitch' is okay? Yo, men, dont say that.
Perspective is a wonderful thing. Since The Name of the Wind was published:
Patrick Rothfuss has written 3 books. 650,000 words. (Approx)
Brandon Sanderson has written 17 books. 3,824,000 words (Approx)
6 to 1. (Approx)
Excluding novellas, which BS has more, and excluding Alcatraz which would make this even worse
Good answer from Mr Gaiman and I completely agree with any book in a series that doesn't take 10 years to write.
Sorry, but this is a ridiculous amount of time between books.
If it wasn't a series, it would be a different story. Tool is my favorite band, took them 13 years. That's fine, because their last album wasn't a cliffhanger. The new album isn't required listening to complete their discography.
I like Gaiman but as an author he is bound to say that, although after writing a few books myself non writers have to understand that not every writer can just reel out page after page to a timetable and when you start editing your books it can get even worse.
Then he should be honest and not string us along. It would have been totally fine if he just said that due to personal reasons, he can't finish the series. It would have hurt for a moment, but people would be over it and instead of this continuous disappointment and growing bitter aftertaste, we could remember the books that ARE out with fondness, and perhaps even look for some other author to finish the series. But that wasn't what he did, he kept us waiting for 10 years and counting, all the while coming up with ridiculous excuses and having the audacity to work on side projects while allegedly working hard on the third book.
And I find it quite offensive when people who clearly don't care enough about the series or aren't bothered by the lack of honesty from the author act like their perspective is the only valid one.
Neil's answer seems totally reasonable with reasonable times. I wonder if he'd still say the same thing now that it's been 10 years since the last book.
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i agree wholeheartedly with what NG is saying but that's not whats happening here. Patrick has created and blown off the deadline for this book repeatedly for a couple years. He keeps hinting that it will be out and then when it comes time for him to start publishing like he said unashamedly telling people to calm down and wait while hinting that it might be done at a new date which he also blows off when it comes around. If you as an author feel that your novel needs more work then figure out the time and try and get it done or give up on it for the time being. That is something i will wholeheartedly except, after all he's not my bitch, but if you keep missing your deadline every year and still keep hinting that it will be out by next year then i think i have some right to be getting frustrated and start being vocal about it.
Daniel, I'm quite sure writing a book series has very little in common with giving birth to a child. Okay, the child has sort of an expectable time span. And now days, when babies are "overdue" doctors will intervene. But and you can trust me on this, the mother does not control the labor. When the baby kicks it off, she is along for the ride. I LOVE the first two volumes, even though there have been times when my mind wandered while reading. Yet never did I Anne Ryand this book. Sorry, pretty sure her whole name is misspelled. But when she climbed on the soap box, I slid and dipped into pages at a time, until the STORY resumed! So far my wandering in Rothfuss has never required going back. Their purpose became clear, within a reasonable time!
Gotta love Neil Gainman. I also disagree with the statement that it is "fair for consumers to expect the product". The product, as stated, is the book you bought, not future books.You do have every right to be annoyed that you do not have the continuation of the story at hand. You have no right, absolutely none, to be annoyed with the author. It is completely within their right to stop writing the damn story if they so choose.
I do want the third book to come out so I can read it though :D
That definitely puts things into perspective.
Gotta love im, no splitting hair about that statement. We forget that life happens to others not just us. Thanks for the perspective.
It's funny to see people keep defending authors the longer and longer it takes. Gaiman's defense is incredibly pretentious and weak. He's right that authors owe readers nothing. It's just common sense that an author hurts themselves the longer they take. You're losing customers. The fact that authors refuse to think this way is why books are becoming irrelevant to most.
Neil Gaimen was talking in reference to George R R Martin. Big difference between the two. Mr Martin has produced tons in comparison to PR. He's earned the right. PR has not.
Gaiman definitely makes some great points. I am always waiting for the next book, and it isn't just this series either. We are the readers, the audience, not the author. You can complain about not getting your next piece of chocolate, or you can move on and wait patiently. We can not control other people. That's just the way life is, and if you can't deal with that, then it sucks to be someone who feels the need to have that much control in your life because that is not the way life works.
You are absolutely right. By the same token he cannot control us. We can abstain, just as you walk away from a bully when he is teasing you.
I love how honest that article is. Well said i say!
I'd sympathize with it more if Pat was more forthcoming in talking about book 3, instead of saying things like "I'm going to block anyone who asks about book 3, period." [this was a couple of years ago on Twitter.]
Sorry, but no. When you sign a contract stating you'll have your product out by a certain date, you're obligated to fulfill that contract.Anyone else would be fired.
NG talks about "a book a year" writing and saying thats madness. I agree. But a book in 5 years sounds just about right. You have time to live,love,work,travel and still get stuff done. 50k word novella is an OK side project, something to take his mind off stuff. Brandon Sanderson once said that he NEEDED to work on more than one book at any given time,or he'd go insane. And I really understand and support that. But PR just doesnt write anything these days. He surrounded himself with fanboys and fangirls,blocking everybody on Twitter that dissagrees with him. Or asks about book 3.I honestly want to respect him,but why should I if he doesnt respect me? I want honesty and he's giving me sh*t in the face. If he has a writers block,thats fine. If he's working on something else,fine. If there's sh*t in his life,like there is, that's also fine. But at least respect people that gave money for your book by mentioning once in a while in his blogs.
Alas,he just doesnt care.
I feel like people fail to recognize how readers might lose their trust in authors and may become less inclined to buy books from unfinished series later on, hurting other unestablished authors in the process. As a side note: when books take this long, parts of your audience simply die before they get the chance to read the entire series. I refuse to die before reading doors of stone! :)
No one wants a rushed product... but no one wants it extremely late, either. It's possible to overplay your hand when building up anticipation, and Rothfuss has just about reached that point.
I avoided being talked into the wheel of time because I just didn't feel like a long series at the time. Then I watched everyone complain. And then watched them lose their collective mind when the author kicked it without finishing. I felt like I dodged a bullet. The same crowd jumped in for George R. R. Martin. I stayed out of it. Cause he was an old dude with a beard I didn't trust to finish it.
Rothfus was my last stop on the fantasy series train. If it doesn't have a finished arc, I don't buy it. I'll be your customer when you are done.
The fact that seemingly EVERYTHING takes precedence over finishing the damn story is problematic. HE promised a trilogy, and It became clear by the end of book 2 that he had no clue how to get to the start of book 1 in one more go.
At this point, if it has his name attached, my money stays in my pocket to be spent elsewhere. His other books, games, licenses, movies, tv series, charities. Don't care.
He owes me nothing, but I also don't owe him anything either.
You've hit the nail on the head there Matt. The issue with a series is that if you start it, you should probably know how you're gonna finish it, instead of continuously kicking the ball down the road by either A. not writing anything and making people wait years or B. continuing to add on more installments until you finally have that epiphany you've been waiting for (and that you would've preferably had *before* there was a massive following for your first couple of books).
You don't even need to restrict yourself to fantasy books, or even books to see how important this can be. Look at TV, for example -- it's pretty obvious the showrunners of Lost created Lost without any notion whatsoever of how they were going to tie it all together in the end. Which makes for compelling TV in the middle (because *nobody* knows how it's going to end, not even the showrunners, so it's all very exciting), but then ends with a very dissatisfying for many vans, because it feels "meh" and shoehorned in.
You see a similar pattern in a lot of TV, actually, though a lot of that can probably be attributed to TV seemingly being much more profit-driven than writing novels, so the producers just want you to keep adding on more seasons even if you have no idea how to keep developing the plot (looking at you, Dexter).
So to get back to books: I generally agree with the sentiment that authors owe readers (almost) nothing, as they've already delivered on what you paid for. That being said, if you do this as an author, my opinion of you as an author goes down by a fair bit. If you craft good prose, great, my opinion of you on that count remains unchanged. But being an author and creating a novel or series is about more than just good world-building, or thoughtful character development, or elegant prose. It's also about the story, the arc. If you are writing a series, and can't help but end every book with a cliff-hanger, or otherwise provide readers with some amount of closure at the end of it all, you're a poorer writer for it. That's it.
If you want to write a series, but have no clue how you're going to finish it when you start writing, then I have a suggestion. At the very least, release your first book without saying it's part of a series. Then when the second one comes out, call it a sequel (which it is). From there, if you want to write many more books, you can call it a "series". If, after writing two books, you think you have a good plan for one more book to wrap it up, *then* you can start calling it a trilogy. But it's not really a trilogy until there are actually three books. It's especially not a trilogy if you end up with four complete books (looking at you, Chris Paolini). There is no legitimate reason to call something a trilogy if you don't actually have a solid plan for three books.
Why does everyone think saying 'he is not your bitch' is okay? Yo, men, dont say that.
Perspective is a wonderful thing. Since The Name of the Wind was published:Patrick Rothfuss has written 3 books. 650,000 words. (Approx)
Brandon Sanderson has written 17 books. 3,824,000 words (Approx)
6 to 1. (Approx)
Excluding novellas, which BS has more, and excluding Alcatraz which would make this even worse
Good answer from Mr Gaiman and I completely agree with any book in a series that doesn't take 10 years to write. Sorry, but this is a ridiculous amount of time between books.
If it wasn't a series, it would be a different story. Tool is my favorite band, took them 13 years. That's fine, because their last album wasn't a cliffhanger. The new album isn't required listening to complete their discography.
I like Gaiman but as an author he is bound to say that, although after writing a few books myself non writers have to understand that not every writer can just reel out page after page to a timetable and when you start editing your books it can get even worse.
Then he should be honest and not string us along. It would have been totally fine if he just said that due to personal reasons, he can't finish the series. It would have hurt for a moment, but people would be over it and instead of this continuous disappointment and growing bitter aftertaste, we could remember the books that ARE out with fondness, and perhaps even look for some other author to finish the series. But that wasn't what he did, he kept us waiting for 10 years and counting, all the while coming up with ridiculous excuses and having the audacity to work on side projects while allegedly working hard on the third book.And I find it quite offensive when people who clearly don't care enough about the series or aren't bothered by the lack of honesty from the author act like their perspective is the only valid one.
Neil's answer seems totally reasonable with reasonable times. I wonder if he'd still say the same thing now that it's been 10 years since the last book.
What affected me the most was his comment about an artist needing to have a life in order to have something to write about.
"And life is a good thing for a writer. It's where we get our raw material, for a start. We quite like to stop and watch it."
Seems obvious, but it's true. The difference between Springsteen's early work and later work is a different perspective. He lived close to the topics/characters of his earlier work, while his later work was written from a place of extreme wealth and comfort. Still good, but more empathy than experience, so therefore different.
I want Patrick Rothfus to finish this damn book. I also don't want him to finish it, because then I won't have it in my future. :)