Mark’s answer to “Why did you make Jorg such an anti-hero to the point that, as I've seen, many readers dislike him f…” > Likes and Comments
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I think he's interesting because he isn't a clichéd hero or anti hero. he's from somewhere outside the box
There's a lot to be said for pushing the reader to really consider a person's character and actions and the rationale.
Hi Mark, don't know if you read these things or not, but I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed the Broken Empire series. For me, what made Jorg such a fantastic character was that, in the end, he basically says "I did this, I will take whatever comes from it, good or bad, and you can judge me all you want." It's not amoral, selfish, or anything, he has a goal, and even though his priorities change, his goal remains the same. and of course the whole thing about what do you do after you reach that goal. I thought the ending was devastating, but the right one. It was like when you walk through a forest, turn around and realise all the trees were actually planted in straight lines and what might have seemed random just lines up perfectly. I was very fortunate to be given a signed first edition of Prince, which I will take very, very good care of.
I think of Jorg as an anti, anti, anti, anti-hero! :D
That is awesome, I somehow always pictured Jorg as Alex when reading the books :)
He doesn't kill people for no reason. As you read the books you find that he has a pretty good reason for the people he killed. And it's a different time, if you read any medieval historic fiction there's always killing and raping going on as a matter of course.
I immediately saw Jorg as being like Light from Death Note. I couldn't get past about 30 minutes of Clockwork.
I don't understand why would anyone dislike Jorg's character. I found him fascinating. An anti-hiro? Definitely. But that's what makes him interesting. It's like reading a typical hero story from a villan's point of view, and villans are always more complex, more exciting characters, in my opinion. Of course each time a reader knows he'll escape unscathed (Prince - King - Emperor - duh!) but you just want to know what he's going to do this time, how he's going to do it. And often my reaction was: "No, he didn't!!!" :o He does things you normally wouldn't expect a protagonist to do. Jorg is a character I absolutely fell in love with, and who I would never ever want to meet personally ;)
AHA! I thought he might have been inspired by Alex! I loved your little references to A Clockwork Orange, as well. I think I remember Jorg saying something along the lines of "What's it going to be then, eh?" Alex is one of the most interesting protagonists I've encountered, and I feel Jorg is every bit as fascinating.
If you don't want a hero unlike any other, you should probably just read a more typical fantasy. Heard there's a lot of by the books stuff on the shelves these days.
I loved Jorg. He had a lot of depth that came through.
Thank you so much for Jorg!
I was so tired of prophesied farm boys, clean cut and fresh straight from the small town.
Jarlan too he was a great addition and is literally my fave character EVER!!
Agree, I thought he was a clean break from so many other main characters. He lives in a tough time and his reactions might surprise many but it keeps him alive.
Wow, so it wasn't just a coincidence that Jorg reminded me of Alex a little.
Jorgs way of speaking reminded me so strongly of Nadsat, which I loved. This news, from Mark above (as in up there above the comments, not like God in Heaven), makes me feel happy :)
I really liked the characters of both Jorg and Jal. The most recent books I've read are Tad Williams Shadowmarch series, and there wasn't a single character I bonded with. Briony and her brother bored the arse off me.
Quote (ie: raping women, killing people for no reason at all, etc.)
The reasons were later told in the Book. All part of the Game...
i loved Jorg, he is the perfect antihero the more evil the better in my opinion!!
Jorg is one of the most fascinating characters I've read about in a long time. He's a monster, but he's also a child, and he does the most horrific things yet he's still not evil the whole way through, and it is understandable why he is the way he is. He's just such a psychologically fascinating character.
I loved him too! And the ending!
The fact that he is an "anti-hero" is precisely why I loved the story and the character so much.
I love Jorg! I don't think he's an anti-hero, per say. Many of the people he kills are pretty rotten characters themselves. He's so dynamic. Is he evil at times? Yes, but he also has moments of compassion, albeit few. He's real because he doesn't fall into stereotypes. I like to consider him as chaotic neutral, if you will.
I found/find the rapist aspect of his past the most troubling. I can intellectually reconcile that with the medieval style setting however its still a step too far for me to end up rooting for him to forgive that act.
Fortunately nobody is asking you to forgive or root for him...
Tolstoy, it is said, wrote Anna Karenina as a challenge, because he wanted to describe a character that everyone would sympathise with and yet who had broken every social norm. I guess this stands in contrast to Dumas' Dame aux Cammellias.
I suppose it's not essential that a write sympathise with the protagonist, but it's a powerful tool to help the readership engage with them.
Beyond adding something new to the field, why throw such a valuable tool away?
I think you answered your own question. Why do people climb Everest without oxygen. Or at all. Why not rewrite the same very popular book over and over?
I like books with a strong and brutal Protagonist, i hate it when they forgive traitors and spare enemies. Feels more real to me when they actually kill their enemies unlike a lot of other books.
Much like Patrick Bateman in American Psycho, too. We despise what he does, but read on out of curiosity and the thought of "what does this maniac do next?"
This book as great I thought. I like a change of pace from the run-of-the-mill high fantasy book where good vs evil is the main theme. Make more with gritty and brutal characters!
Jorg was a broken man with a huge amount of inner strength. That results in a psychopat with an important goal ahead of him, and being a psychopat he will do whatever he thinks necessary to survive and attain his goal. That's not to say I agree with him, the rape and killing the girl's father certainly turned my stomach, and in fact made me give up the book when I first wanted to read it. Was like, "that's the MC, who I'm supposed to root for? Err, no thanks, next book please". But after a couple of years I gave it another chance, and while Jorg will never be my favourite- because of those despicable facts of raping (which I think are aggravated by the fact that he himself suffered that fate)- I must say I find refreshing to have an MC with a no-nonsense attitude, who assumes his own nature and doesn't wallow in self doubts and useless remorses like most of other chars I read about. Not few books were ruined for me by imposing this inner-whiney selves on the MCs. I love me some assassins books and nothing grates on my nerves more than an assassin or a warrior asking themselves every two minutes, "does that makes me a bad person? am I losing my humanity? am I the same as those who I'm fighting against?" ...and so on and so on. NO, YOU'RE EFFING NOT!!! find the heck another line of work if that's your thinking, you know? Of course at the end this was also ruined for me when he feels guilt for his brother death, (I mean from all the nasty things he did, he actually feels guilty for the one that was definitely NOT his fault "insert heavy facepalm here") So while I actually wanted Jorg to die (is it weird? he wanted too) I didn't like the reason and the way he did. Oh well. So I didn't like the beggining and the end, but I really liked the way he acted in between- including killing without remorse and explanation those who were deserving. I guess I too, have an inner psychopat after all.
I'm re reading Prince of Thorns and have to agree on the parallels between Clockwork Orange and this book.....such a great series
Honestly? Thank you for doing that. A good character does not have to be morally good. It is wonderful that someone is not afraid to make a "negative" character a focus (for purpose other than shaming)
This is a good answer. Another answer is that it all felt more realistic. I mean, all that stuff was common in war well into the 20th century.
if you were a soldier or Mercenary hundreds of years ago rape, pillaged and murder essentially came with the job.
interesting is the right word. complex might be another. I was very interested to find out how the story of this complex character ended. loved the books
Good answer. If all characters were bleeding hearts, books would get boring fast.
A squeaky-clean protagonist is so boring and predictable. Jorg is one of the best characters I've ever read of. I wouldn't want to hang out with him but I'd be compelled to keep a wary eye on him.
i love jorge. he is one of my favorite characters in fiction now
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Paul
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Oct 19, 2014 08:00AM
I think he's interesting because he isn't a clichéd hero or anti hero. he's from somewhere outside the box
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I like your explanation of him, Mark. It definitely fits him better. Somewhere between villain, hero, and antihero. I certainly agree with what you say about liking a character but not liking what he does.
There's a lot to be said for pushing the reader to really consider a person's character and actions and the rationale.
Hi Mark, don't know if you read these things or not, but I thoroughly, thoroughly enjoyed the Broken Empire series. For me, what made Jorg such a fantastic character was that, in the end, he basically says "I did this, I will take whatever comes from it, good or bad, and you can judge me all you want." It's not amoral, selfish, or anything, he has a goal, and even though his priorities change, his goal remains the same. and of course the whole thing about what do you do after you reach that goal. I thought the ending was devastating, but the right one. It was like when you walk through a forest, turn around and realise all the trees were actually planted in straight lines and what might have seemed random just lines up perfectly. I was very fortunate to be given a signed first edition of Prince, which I will take very, very good care of.
I think of Jorg as an anti, anti, anti, anti-hero! :D
That is awesome, I somehow always pictured Jorg as Alex when reading the books :)
He doesn't kill people for no reason. As you read the books you find that he has a pretty good reason for the people he killed. And it's a different time, if you read any medieval historic fiction there's always killing and raping going on as a matter of course.
I immediately saw Jorg as being like Light from Death Note. I couldn't get past about 30 minutes of Clockwork.
I don't understand why would anyone dislike Jorg's character. I found him fascinating. An anti-hiro? Definitely. But that's what makes him interesting. It's like reading a typical hero story from a villan's point of view, and villans are always more complex, more exciting characters, in my opinion. Of course each time a reader knows he'll escape unscathed (Prince - King - Emperor - duh!) but you just want to know what he's going to do this time, how he's going to do it. And often my reaction was: "No, he didn't!!!" :o He does things you normally wouldn't expect a protagonist to do. Jorg is a character I absolutely fell in love with, and who I would never ever want to meet personally ;)
AHA! I thought he might have been inspired by Alex! I loved your little references to A Clockwork Orange, as well. I think I remember Jorg saying something along the lines of "What's it going to be then, eh?" Alex is one of the most interesting protagonists I've encountered, and I feel Jorg is every bit as fascinating.
If you don't want a hero unlike any other, you should probably just read a more typical fantasy. Heard there's a lot of by the books stuff on the shelves these days.
I loved Jorg. He had a lot of depth that came through.
Thank you so much for Jorg!I was so tired of prophesied farm boys, clean cut and fresh straight from the small town.
Jarlan too he was a great addition and is literally my fave character EVER!!
Agree, I thought he was a clean break from so many other main characters. He lives in a tough time and his reactions might surprise many but it keeps him alive.
Wow, so it wasn't just a coincidence that Jorg reminded me of Alex a little.
Jorgs way of speaking reminded me so strongly of Nadsat, which I loved. This news, from Mark above (as in up there above the comments, not like God in Heaven), makes me feel happy :)
I really liked the characters of both Jorg and Jal. The most recent books I've read are Tad Williams Shadowmarch series, and there wasn't a single character I bonded with. Briony and her brother bored the arse off me.
Quote (ie: raping women, killing people for no reason at all, etc.)The reasons were later told in the Book. All part of the Game...
i loved Jorg, he is the perfect antihero the more evil the better in my opinion!!
Jorg is one of the most fascinating characters I've read about in a long time. He's a monster, but he's also a child, and he does the most horrific things yet he's still not evil the whole way through, and it is understandable why he is the way he is. He's just such a psychologically fascinating character.
I loved him too! And the ending!
The fact that he is an "anti-hero" is precisely why I loved the story and the character so much.
I love Jorg! I don't think he's an anti-hero, per say. Many of the people he kills are pretty rotten characters themselves. He's so dynamic. Is he evil at times? Yes, but he also has moments of compassion, albeit few. He's real because he doesn't fall into stereotypes. I like to consider him as chaotic neutral, if you will.
I found/find the rapist aspect of his past the most troubling. I can intellectually reconcile that with the medieval style setting however its still a step too far for me to end up rooting for him to forgive that act.
Fortunately nobody is asking you to forgive or root for him...
Tolstoy, it is said, wrote Anna Karenina as a challenge, because he wanted to describe a character that everyone would sympathise with and yet who had broken every social norm. I guess this stands in contrast to Dumas' Dame aux Cammellias. I suppose it's not essential that a write sympathise with the protagonist, but it's a powerful tool to help the readership engage with them.
Beyond adding something new to the field, why throw such a valuable tool away?
I think you answered your own question. Why do people climb Everest without oxygen. Or at all. Why not rewrite the same very popular book over and over?
I like books with a strong and brutal Protagonist, i hate it when they forgive traitors and spare enemies. Feels more real to me when they actually kill their enemies unlike a lot of other books.
Much like Patrick Bateman in American Psycho, too. We despise what he does, but read on out of curiosity and the thought of "what does this maniac do next?"
This book as great I thought. I like a change of pace from the run-of-the-mill high fantasy book where good vs evil is the main theme. Make more with gritty and brutal characters!
Jorg was a broken man with a huge amount of inner strength. That results in a psychopat with an important goal ahead of him, and being a psychopat he will do whatever he thinks necessary to survive and attain his goal. That's not to say I agree with him, the rape and killing the girl's father certainly turned my stomach, and in fact made me give up the book when I first wanted to read it. Was like, "that's the MC, who I'm supposed to root for? Err, no thanks, next book please". But after a couple of years I gave it another chance, and while Jorg will never be my favourite- because of those despicable facts of raping (which I think are aggravated by the fact that he himself suffered that fate)- I must say I find refreshing to have an MC with a no-nonsense attitude, who assumes his own nature and doesn't wallow in self doubts and useless remorses like most of other chars I read about. Not few books were ruined for me by imposing this inner-whiney selves on the MCs. I love me some assassins books and nothing grates on my nerves more than an assassin or a warrior asking themselves every two minutes, "does that makes me a bad person? am I losing my humanity? am I the same as those who I'm fighting against?" ...and so on and so on. NO, YOU'RE EFFING NOT!!! find the heck another line of work if that's your thinking, you know? Of course at the end this was also ruined for me when he feels guilt for his brother death, (I mean from all the nasty things he did, he actually feels guilty for the one that was definitely NOT his fault "insert heavy facepalm here") So while I actually wanted Jorg to die (is it weird? he wanted too) I didn't like the reason and the way he did. Oh well. So I didn't like the beggining and the end, but I really liked the way he acted in between- including killing without remorse and explanation those who were deserving. I guess I too, have an inner psychopat after all.
I'm re reading Prince of Thorns and have to agree on the parallels between Clockwork Orange and this book.....such a great series
Honestly? Thank you for doing that. A good character does not have to be morally good. It is wonderful that someone is not afraid to make a "negative" character a focus (for purpose other than shaming)
This is a good answer. Another answer is that it all felt more realistic. I mean, all that stuff was common in war well into the 20th century. if you were a soldier or Mercenary hundreds of years ago rape, pillaged and murder essentially came with the job.
interesting is the right word. complex might be another. I was very interested to find out how the story of this complex character ended. loved the books
Good answer. If all characters were bleeding hearts, books would get boring fast.
A squeaky-clean protagonist is so boring and predictable. Jorg is one of the best characters I've ever read of. I wouldn't want to hang out with him but I'd be compelled to keep a wary eye on him.
i love jorge. he is one of my favorite characters in fiction now
