Marc’s answer to “Does oliver truely loved Elio I'm not talking here about lust or sexual love, and why oliver choice…” > Likes and Comments
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This and I was asking also about oliver character, personality, thoughts,behavior and why he never act up on his feelings when he knows that Elio has something for him, the time he kissed him and hold back, the time has started ignoring Elio again, and what do you think about oliver generally?
Marc provides good examples of Oliver's love over the years. Many of these are tacit, but nonetheless loaded gestures.
As for Oliver's love for Elio during their summer:
The peach scene.
Their exchange on the rock allays Elio's earlier paranoia over Oliver's late night trysts, which Elio had assumed and imagined. (Although I don't know about those two phone calls, which I suspect were from Oliver's "on and off again" girlfriend.)
"Things. Going back to the States. The Courses I have to teach this fall. The book. You."
"Me? ... No one else?" ...
"I never knew. I thought—"
"I know what you thought."
As for getting married ... loving Elio doesn't preclude Oliver from loving other people. Love can be messy and doesn't necessarily need to be singular. There is evidence of Oliver loving Elio over the years, but we don't know whether Oliver also loved other people (like the woman he married). Just like Elio also loved Oliver, even though Elio encountered other people over the years: "If I were to punctuate my life with the people whose bed I shared ... many brought joy and sorrow, many threw my life off course ..."
Another thread cites Aciman describing how Oliver remained an enigma to Elio and since Elio is narrating the book we are subject to Elio's observations, but from those observations we can make a lot of assumptions. The comment outside the post office might help explain Oliver holding back. He said he didn't want any trouble, and how he seemed to be talking about trouble for each of their hearts, a broken heart. Oliver was older and more responsible, and so I believe he was trying to avoid a messy situation. I do believe Oliver was a noble fellow. There is a lot of evidence of that as well.
Marc, agreed! The conversation outside the post office in the morning after their midnight encounter provides some mirroring between Oliver and Elio's internal states. Oliver says, "For you, however you think of it, it's still fun and games, which it should be. For me it's something else which I haven't figured out, and the fact that I can't scares me." Earlier in the berm chapter when Elio first professes (poetically, but also obtusely) his love for Oliver, he admits his naiveté, "If you only knew how little I know about the things that really matter." And later in the berm, "I am not wise. I told you, I know nothing." [It's funny that Elio's admission of immaturity demanded reflexivity.]
They're both trying to figure out this "thing" between them; Elio approaches it doe-eyed and with youthful abandon, but Oliver with gravitas, no doubt from the additional years he has on Elio.
There is an undeniable something between them. Oliver is catalytical to Elio's dive into his inner experience and self-discovery, whereas Elio disrupts Oliver's rationality. These are Romantic signposts pointing towards the apex of aesthetic experience. Through each other, they are transformed, and through that transformation, bound. ("... he was and would forever remain, long after every forked road in life had done its work, my brother, my friend, ... my husband, my lover, myself.")
Oliver's inner thoughts are not explicit, but his actions are unambiguous. Does he love Elio? Yes—truly—there's sufficient evidence that points so, as you've listed. Is *Oliver noble*? ... That's a tough one because I want to say yes, but in Elio's own words, "Why did I feel that a trap lay a few steps ahead?" I think *Oliver's love for Elio is noble,* but Oliver's character is murkier, mainly because Oliver is unknown to us outside of Elio's perception of him. Elio does say, "I remember good things only." I strongly suspect that we're seeing Elio's idolized version of Oliver. (Elio alludes to his perception of Oliver over time: [when Elio finds Oliver's application] "I found his picture ... The real Oliver, and each successive Oliver wearing a different-coloured bathing suit every day, or the Oliver who lay naked in bed ... stood in the way of the troubled and confused image I had drawn of him on first seeing his snapshot." Elio's perception of these Olivers changes as Elio reflects back on time, and I'd say this probably continued in the present narration.)
We do know that Oliver was leal to Elio during that summer (Oliver spend nights at the rock, not galavanting around town as Elio jealously assumed). But Oliver is not perfect (who is?): he was shady with Chiara; he got two phone calls from his girlfriend, so we don't fully know what "on and off again" really meant; he withheld this information from Elio, so Elio entered into a relationship with Oliver without complete informed consent (this was quickly passed over, but I suspect it's because the novel wasn't interested in questions of power); and there is one hint that Oliver engaged in dalliances outside his marriage.
Luke your erudite perception of the characters is so helpful. Thank you!.
I agree, certainly no one is perfect. My take on Oliver, the examples of his noble side, include
an interest in everyone, how he validated all of them. For example, he spent an afternoon in the kitchen learning Neopolitan songs with Malfalda and Manfredi. He spent time up in the tree with Anchise, learning about Anchise's skill at growing fruit trees. He had a close friendship with Vimini. So he clearly was not aegist! He paid his own way through school, taking jobs as a cook, and a bartender and then did catering, so he had a responsible nature, except perhaps the gambling, although he claimed to win. Yes he left Chiara with hurt feelings. He may even have been unfaithful to his wife with men, if we are to believe Elio's observation. So yes, not perfect. But perhaps most of all, I think of how he tried to be so careful about Elio, “about the things that matter”, that even though Oliver likely thought Elio was a beautiful young man, and Oliver was falling in love with him, he also realized this is a 17 year old. Instead of finding ways to sneak into Elio’s bed, Oliver tried to put the breaks on everything, until perhaps he realized just like Elio did, a decision whether to speak or to die. They only had 6 weeks.
If I may ask, Luke what did you make of Anchise, how others painted him negatively, except for Professor Perlman who said he had a heart of gold. And what did Elio suddenly realize just before Rome, just before heading down to the water to be with Oliver. What conclusion did Elio reach then, about Anchise. I have my guess, what it was about Anchise, why he was separated from the Army (apparently Manfredi knew about it, and so perhaps everyone did). But I’m certainly puzzled what was on Elio’s mind that night, about Anchise’s relationship with Oliver.
Haha! I just read books, but don't know about the things that really matter.
I watched the film before reading the book, and I think that coloured my initial impressions of Oliver. It took me a while to come around. At first, like Elio and his mom, I read him as way too familiar, but perhaps this was a device to accentuate his "Americaness" against the Italian setting. A handsome man with movie-star looks who also happens to be pretty intelligent and exudes brusque, polite indifference at his hosts. The way he capriciously doled out and withheld attention to Elio at first seemed like a ploy to slowly reel in Elio. This is a master lothario with black belts each in seduction and charm—casting it in his wake. But eventually, I did come around after reading the book. Yes, there was more to Oliver than what initially meet my eye. (I still don't know how Elio and his dad perceive Oliver as shy, though!)
I have no idea what's up with Anchise! Elio characterizes him as sinister, but I didn't see it. I also think that Elio is petulant when it comes to Oliver's time and attention, and he's prone to episodes of unfounded, paranoid jealousy. What's your reading of Anchise?
Later! ; )
Luke, I'm pretty sure Anchise is gay (tossed out of the army), and Professor Perlman sympathizes with him against the general view of the others. Anchise gave Oliver some TLC when he got banged up, and also fixed his bike. But Elio realized something else which I can't figure out.
I did't mean to pollute my comment with a movie quote. I forgot exactly what Elio said in the book. I need to read again, or listen again to the audio book. That is interesting you saw the film first!
I kinda got a sense of it too, but the most salient impression I got of Anchise (through Elio) was that he was sinister—although Elio doesn't really say why. Elio describes Anchiese as sinister at least twice, and comments about Anchise's "leer".
Have you watched the film? There's a discrepancy, no doubt purposeful, between the film and novel that's got me confused.
Marc
You're right that's what I thought about Anchise after him helping oliver when he did fall, and I don't know why Elio consider him as a sinister !.
What you said about oliver character was so helpful thank you guys.
Luke, I've watched the film a number of times including Q&A with the director and Chalamet and another Q&A with Hammer. Remember, Elio admits near the end of the book that Anchise was relatively young, and that as a 17 year old he just thought of Anchise as old. Yet it seems he was not old and died at a relatively young age.
Another example that comes to mind is during the Christmas break visit. Oliver comes to Elio with the news that he's getting married, but he's very clearly affected by Elio's presence. He even confesses "I'd undress you and at the very least hold you, but I can't." So he's slated to marry this woman, but his feelings for Elio are still too strong.
I do think Oliver loved Elio, and he loved him throughout the years. Never stopped loving him.
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Jan 06, 2018 03:51AM
This and I was asking also about oliver character, personality, thoughts,behavior and why he never act up on his feelings when he knows that Elio has something for him, the time he kissed him and hold back, the time has started ignoring Elio again, and what do you think about oliver generally?
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Marc provides good examples of Oliver's love over the years. Many of these are tacit, but nonetheless loaded gestures.As for Oliver's love for Elio during their summer:
The peach scene.
Their exchange on the rock allays Elio's earlier paranoia over Oliver's late night trysts, which Elio had assumed and imagined. (Although I don't know about those two phone calls, which I suspect were from Oliver's "on and off again" girlfriend.)
"Things. Going back to the States. The Courses I have to teach this fall. The book. You."
"Me? ... No one else?" ...
"I never knew. I thought—"
"I know what you thought."
As for getting married ... loving Elio doesn't preclude Oliver from loving other people. Love can be messy and doesn't necessarily need to be singular. There is evidence of Oliver loving Elio over the years, but we don't know whether Oliver also loved other people (like the woman he married). Just like Elio also loved Oliver, even though Elio encountered other people over the years: "If I were to punctuate my life with the people whose bed I shared ... many brought joy and sorrow, many threw my life off course ..."
Another thread cites Aciman describing how Oliver remained an enigma to Elio and since Elio is narrating the book we are subject to Elio's observations, but from those observations we can make a lot of assumptions. The comment outside the post office might help explain Oliver holding back. He said he didn't want any trouble, and how he seemed to be talking about trouble for each of their hearts, a broken heart. Oliver was older and more responsible, and so I believe he was trying to avoid a messy situation. I do believe Oliver was a noble fellow. There is a lot of evidence of that as well.
Marc, agreed! The conversation outside the post office in the morning after their midnight encounter provides some mirroring between Oliver and Elio's internal states. Oliver says, "For you, however you think of it, it's still fun and games, which it should be. For me it's something else which I haven't figured out, and the fact that I can't scares me." Earlier in the berm chapter when Elio first professes (poetically, but also obtusely) his love for Oliver, he admits his naiveté, "If you only knew how little I know about the things that really matter." And later in the berm, "I am not wise. I told you, I know nothing." [It's funny that Elio's admission of immaturity demanded reflexivity.] They're both trying to figure out this "thing" between them; Elio approaches it doe-eyed and with youthful abandon, but Oliver with gravitas, no doubt from the additional years he has on Elio.
There is an undeniable something between them. Oliver is catalytical to Elio's dive into his inner experience and self-discovery, whereas Elio disrupts Oliver's rationality. These are Romantic signposts pointing towards the apex of aesthetic experience. Through each other, they are transformed, and through that transformation, bound. ("... he was and would forever remain, long after every forked road in life had done its work, my brother, my friend, ... my husband, my lover, myself.")
Oliver's inner thoughts are not explicit, but his actions are unambiguous. Does he love Elio? Yes—truly—there's sufficient evidence that points so, as you've listed. Is *Oliver noble*? ... That's a tough one because I want to say yes, but in Elio's own words, "Why did I feel that a trap lay a few steps ahead?" I think *Oliver's love for Elio is noble,* but Oliver's character is murkier, mainly because Oliver is unknown to us outside of Elio's perception of him. Elio does say, "I remember good things only." I strongly suspect that we're seeing Elio's idolized version of Oliver. (Elio alludes to his perception of Oliver over time: [when Elio finds Oliver's application] "I found his picture ... The real Oliver, and each successive Oliver wearing a different-coloured bathing suit every day, or the Oliver who lay naked in bed ... stood in the way of the troubled and confused image I had drawn of him on first seeing his snapshot." Elio's perception of these Olivers changes as Elio reflects back on time, and I'd say this probably continued in the present narration.)
We do know that Oliver was leal to Elio during that summer (Oliver spend nights at the rock, not galavanting around town as Elio jealously assumed). But Oliver is not perfect (who is?): he was shady with Chiara; he got two phone calls from his girlfriend, so we don't fully know what "on and off again" really meant; he withheld this information from Elio, so Elio entered into a relationship with Oliver without complete informed consent (this was quickly passed over, but I suspect it's because the novel wasn't interested in questions of power); and there is one hint that Oliver engaged in dalliances outside his marriage.
Luke your erudite perception of the characters is so helpful. Thank you!. I agree, certainly no one is perfect. My take on Oliver, the examples of his noble side, include
an interest in everyone, how he validated all of them. For example, he spent an afternoon in the kitchen learning Neopolitan songs with Malfalda and Manfredi. He spent time up in the tree with Anchise, learning about Anchise's skill at growing fruit trees. He had a close friendship with Vimini. So he clearly was not aegist! He paid his own way through school, taking jobs as a cook, and a bartender and then did catering, so he had a responsible nature, except perhaps the gambling, although he claimed to win. Yes he left Chiara with hurt feelings. He may even have been unfaithful to his wife with men, if we are to believe Elio's observation. So yes, not perfect. But perhaps most of all, I think of how he tried to be so careful about Elio, “about the things that matter”, that even though Oliver likely thought Elio was a beautiful young man, and Oliver was falling in love with him, he also realized this is a 17 year old. Instead of finding ways to sneak into Elio’s bed, Oliver tried to put the breaks on everything, until perhaps he realized just like Elio did, a decision whether to speak or to die. They only had 6 weeks.
If I may ask, Luke what did you make of Anchise, how others painted him negatively, except for Professor Perlman who said he had a heart of gold. And what did Elio suddenly realize just before Rome, just before heading down to the water to be with Oliver. What conclusion did Elio reach then, about Anchise. I have my guess, what it was about Anchise, why he was separated from the Army (apparently Manfredi knew about it, and so perhaps everyone did). But I’m certainly puzzled what was on Elio’s mind that night, about Anchise’s relationship with Oliver.
Haha! I just read books, but don't know about the things that really matter.I watched the film before reading the book, and I think that coloured my initial impressions of Oliver. It took me a while to come around. At first, like Elio and his mom, I read him as way too familiar, but perhaps this was a device to accentuate his "Americaness" against the Italian setting. A handsome man with movie-star looks who also happens to be pretty intelligent and exudes brusque, polite indifference at his hosts. The way he capriciously doled out and withheld attention to Elio at first seemed like a ploy to slowly reel in Elio. This is a master lothario with black belts each in seduction and charm—casting it in his wake. But eventually, I did come around after reading the book. Yes, there was more to Oliver than what initially meet my eye. (I still don't know how Elio and his dad perceive Oliver as shy, though!)
I have no idea what's up with Anchise! Elio characterizes him as sinister, but I didn't see it. I also think that Elio is petulant when it comes to Oliver's time and attention, and he's prone to episodes of unfounded, paranoid jealousy. What's your reading of Anchise?
Later! ; )
Luke, I'm pretty sure Anchise is gay (tossed out of the army), and Professor Perlman sympathizes with him against the general view of the others. Anchise gave Oliver some TLC when he got banged up, and also fixed his bike. But Elio realized something else which I can't figure out.I did't mean to pollute my comment with a movie quote. I forgot exactly what Elio said in the book. I need to read again, or listen again to the audio book. That is interesting you saw the film first!
I kinda got a sense of it too, but the most salient impression I got of Anchise (through Elio) was that he was sinister—although Elio doesn't really say why. Elio describes Anchiese as sinister at least twice, and comments about Anchise's "leer".Have you watched the film? There's a discrepancy, no doubt purposeful, between the film and novel that's got me confused.
MarcYou're right that's what I thought about Anchise after him helping oliver when he did fall, and I don't know why Elio consider him as a sinister !.
What you said about oliver character was so helpful thank you guys.
Luke, I've watched the film a number of times including Q&A with the director and Chalamet and another Q&A with Hammer. Remember, Elio admits near the end of the book that Anchise was relatively young, and that as a 17 year old he just thought of Anchise as old. Yet it seems he was not old and died at a relatively young age.
Another example that comes to mind is during the Christmas break visit. Oliver comes to Elio with the news that he's getting married, but he's very clearly affected by Elio's presence. He even confesses "I'd undress you and at the very least hold you, but I can't." So he's slated to marry this woman, but his feelings for Elio are still too strong. I do think Oliver loved Elio, and he loved him throughout the years. Never stopped loving him.
