Jacob’s answer to “in ref to the Vermin Episode... I can understand about covering mirrors when one passes on, but …” > Likes and Comments
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What was the superstition (or as a friend calls it 'STUPIDstition' ) about the clocks? and any idea where it was based (is it a jewish one?)
Wait, "shiksa" a derogatory term?? My college boyfriend called me that for four years. I thought it was neutral-to-endearing.
Yolk's on me.
I don't know about Shiksa but Jacob wrote SKiKsaH
******
TL;DR ~ "Shiksa" and "skiksah" are very likely transliterations of the exact same word, and in general, it's no longer considered offensive in American English.
******
The long version:
I'm nearly certain Jacob and I are talking about the same word. Hebrew writing (which is also used for Yiddish, from which shiksa originates) can't really be translated, only transliterated, so it's possible to wind up with several different Roman-alphabet spellings of the same word, as Jacob and I have here, and both can be totally correct. The main reasons, as I understand them, for the somewhat loosey-goosey results are, a) the Hebrew alphabet has no vowels; the reader is supposed to just fill them in based on their context/implication, b) like multiple other languages, there are sounds in Jewish languages that that cannot be represented in English writing since they are not made/used in our spoken language, and c) there are a couple of different transliteration standards to boot! (Given Jacob's awe-inspiring academic background, I would not be surprised if he is using a more scholarly transliteration protocol than the common one, "shiksa", provides. I bet he totally tore up Hebrew school. :-D )
Anywho, I did a little research on this, and here's what I learned, which is actually pretty interesting: The term "goyim" for non-Jews (singular: goy, as Jacob pointed out), dates back to pre-Roman times, and was actually initially only meant in a purely descriptive way, and was not pejorative at all. It was really only in English that it has more of a derogatory tinge to it; the more polite preferred term would be gentile.
Shiksa, on the other hand, seems to have evolved the opposite way! Quite offensive once upon a time, "shiksa" as a derogatory term is generally used only amongst Orthodox Jews, directed at women in their own community that they judge to be lacking in proper observance of Orthodox rules and precepts, or, amongst the Orthodox in Israel, at any non-religious Jewish woman. However, in today's modern American English nomenclature, it's evolved through a labyrinthine path (including through Philip Roth) to mean a non-Jewish temptress (even if the temptation is due to no action of her own), often blonde, usually beautiful, almost always *desirable* in some way. It's not considered particularly immoral to date or even marry her, but your mother would wring her hands and say a lot of "oy vey!"s. (So I guess I can preserve the positive opinion I've always held of my college boyfriend; he*was* just being affectionately teasing! ;-) ) Also, this definition of shiksa is an American idiom only; as a borrow word, its meaning is very different in other languages. (For instance in German, schickse means "floozy" and is indeed pejorative, but has absolutely nothing at all to do with Jewishness or lack thereof!)
Oddly enough, the same sort of evolution did not happen to shegetz – it's just as offensive as ever.
Sorry for the book-length comment; I was curious about it and thought I'd share what I'd learned! Jacob, please correct me if my memory has failed on any this. I did my best and learned many Jewish factoids during those years with the Jewish ex-boyfriend; I'm not sure how much I retained, but I know that I can still convincingly fake my way through a Passover dinner, sing Hava Nagila like a champ, and still raise toasts with a hearty "l'chaim!".
Shelli, love your "extra" information, as for me, don't apologize for the length.
I believe many readers, probably Jacob as well, do get carried away into "lateral paths" upon encountering unknown or faintly sketch words/concepts/etc..
I find myself too often at my pc, totally mesmerize by what some would even call minutia, but to me it's the "sauce" of knowledge - and/or plain curiosity :) Sometimes - well let's admit - 99.999 % of the time, that opens a door/s to a never ending quest and feast of "stories". My Pocket app is bursting with bookmarks!
So much one wants to read, so little time.
Somebody evidently forgot to compute the existence of writers when calculation human lifespan. The reality of these diverse, wondrous - past & present - writers is for readers a blessing, a cursing ( can u say it like that in English or should I say ",a curse."? Sorry for other grammar/syntaxes "horrors"; I stick to my excuse that this is not my mother tongue, Castilian is.)
P.S.:
Dr. Appel, pls, pls, do keep on writing; we'll take the Blessing & the Cursing, anytime, rather than a dearth of stories.
P.S.2:
If u reach here, my sincere apologies (& thanks),did not intend to write a monographic length reply - my mother always says I DO talk too much :)
Thanks, Ma. Alejandra
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Kim
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Jul 01, 2015 12:41PM
What was the superstition (or as a friend calls it 'STUPIDstition' ) about the clocks? and any idea where it was based (is it a jewish one?)
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Wait, "shiksa" a derogatory term?? My college boyfriend called me that for four years. I thought it was neutral-to-endearing. Yolk's on me.
I don't know about Shiksa but Jacob wrote SKiKsaH
******TL;DR ~ "Shiksa" and "skiksah" are very likely transliterations of the exact same word, and in general, it's no longer considered offensive in American English.
******
The long version:
I'm nearly certain Jacob and I are talking about the same word. Hebrew writing (which is also used for Yiddish, from which shiksa originates) can't really be translated, only transliterated, so it's possible to wind up with several different Roman-alphabet spellings of the same word, as Jacob and I have here, and both can be totally correct. The main reasons, as I understand them, for the somewhat loosey-goosey results are, a) the Hebrew alphabet has no vowels; the reader is supposed to just fill them in based on their context/implication, b) like multiple other languages, there are sounds in Jewish languages that that cannot be represented in English writing since they are not made/used in our spoken language, and c) there are a couple of different transliteration standards to boot! (Given Jacob's awe-inspiring academic background, I would not be surprised if he is using a more scholarly transliteration protocol than the common one, "shiksa", provides. I bet he totally tore up Hebrew school. :-D )
Anywho, I did a little research on this, and here's what I learned, which is actually pretty interesting: The term "goyim" for non-Jews (singular: goy, as Jacob pointed out), dates back to pre-Roman times, and was actually initially only meant in a purely descriptive way, and was not pejorative at all. It was really only in English that it has more of a derogatory tinge to it; the more polite preferred term would be gentile.
Shiksa, on the other hand, seems to have evolved the opposite way! Quite offensive once upon a time, "shiksa" as a derogatory term is generally used only amongst Orthodox Jews, directed at women in their own community that they judge to be lacking in proper observance of Orthodox rules and precepts, or, amongst the Orthodox in Israel, at any non-religious Jewish woman. However, in today's modern American English nomenclature, it's evolved through a labyrinthine path (including through Philip Roth) to mean a non-Jewish temptress (even if the temptation is due to no action of her own), often blonde, usually beautiful, almost always *desirable* in some way. It's not considered particularly immoral to date or even marry her, but your mother would wring her hands and say a lot of "oy vey!"s. (So I guess I can preserve the positive opinion I've always held of my college boyfriend; he*was* just being affectionately teasing! ;-) ) Also, this definition of shiksa is an American idiom only; as a borrow word, its meaning is very different in other languages. (For instance in German, schickse means "floozy" and is indeed pejorative, but has absolutely nothing at all to do with Jewishness or lack thereof!)
Oddly enough, the same sort of evolution did not happen to shegetz – it's just as offensive as ever.
Sorry for the book-length comment; I was curious about it and thought I'd share what I'd learned! Jacob, please correct me if my memory has failed on any this. I did my best and learned many Jewish factoids during those years with the Jewish ex-boyfriend; I'm not sure how much I retained, but I know that I can still convincingly fake my way through a Passover dinner, sing Hava Nagila like a champ, and still raise toasts with a hearty "l'chaim!".
Shelli, love your "extra" information, as for me, don't apologize for the length. I believe many readers, probably Jacob as well, do get carried away into "lateral paths" upon encountering unknown or faintly sketch words/concepts/etc..
I find myself too often at my pc, totally mesmerize by what some would even call minutia, but to me it's the "sauce" of knowledge - and/or plain curiosity :) Sometimes - well let's admit - 99.999 % of the time, that opens a door/s to a never ending quest and feast of "stories". My Pocket app is bursting with bookmarks!
So much one wants to read, so little time.
Somebody evidently forgot to compute the existence of writers when calculation human lifespan. The reality of these diverse, wondrous - past & present - writers is for readers a blessing, a cursing ( can u say it like that in English or should I say ",a curse."? Sorry for other grammar/syntaxes "horrors"; I stick to my excuse that this is not my mother tongue, Castilian is.)
P.S.:
Dr. Appel, pls, pls, do keep on writing; we'll take the Blessing & the Cursing, anytime, rather than a dearth of stories.
P.S.2:
If u reach here, my sincere apologies (& thanks),did not intend to write a monographic length reply - my mother always says I DO talk too much :)
Thanks, Ma. Alejandra
